Anaylisis on Egyptian War Elephant with Suprising Results!

Topic Subject: Anaylisis on Egyptian War Elephant with Suprising Results!

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IAmRa
Mortal

posted 11 February 2004 08:08 PM EDT (US)

Feel i might be letting loose a Demon bye Posting this..but i have kinda knew About this since The titans Expansion has been released an im gonan share my Findings with the Community on the Egyptian War Elephant i conducted my tests from with in the Game Editor under these Conditions

All Units Tests were Conducted with BASE Stats meaning no Upgrades no Armory no Line ups Note: I took away the War Elephants Free Meduim Upgrade it gets when you Reach Heroic with Egypt i did this to make it BASE Hoplite for Example against Base War Elephant, I also Conducted these Tests as Close to Equal pop per Unit as Possible so please bear with me.

Part 1 Units used and Hitpoints Per Pop Slot

First we gonna look at the units used and How Much Hitpoints per pop slot each unit has that i determined was the fair way to conduct these tests there are the units i used and how many hitpoints per pop slot each unit has.

Hoplite- 57.5 HP Pop Slot Cost 50 food and 40 gold. Costs 2 Pop slots

Murmillo- 55 HP Per Pop Slot Cost 55 food and 30 Gold. Costs 2 Pop Slots

Ulfsark- 40 Hp Per Pop Slot cost 50 food and 30 gold. Costs 2 Pop Slots

Spearmen- 35 HP Per Pop Slot Cost 50 food and 20 gold. Cost 2 Pop slots

Katapeltes- 57.5 Hp Per Pop Slot Cost 60 Food and 35 Gold. Costs 2 Pop slots

Prodromos- 40 HP Per Pop Slot Costs 70 Food and 40 Gold(Poseidon's cost 63 Food and 36 Gold)3x Damage against Cav. Cost 3 Pop Slots

Camel- 45.5 Hp Per Pop Slot Cost 50 Food and 70 Gold 1.8 Damage bonus against Cav. Cost 3 Pop Slots

Hippikon- 50 HP Per Pop slot cost 40 food and 80 Gold(Poseidon's cost 36 Food and 72 Gold)Costs 3 Pop Slots

Contarious- 43.5 HP Per Pop Slot Cost 70 Food and 40 Gold. Cost 3 Pop Slots

Raiding Cavalry- 52.5 HP Per Pop Slot cost 40 Food and 50 gold cost. 2 Pop Slots

Jarl- 60 HP Per Pop Slot cost 50 Food and 80 Gold. Cost 3 Pop slots

Fanatic- 40 HP Per Pop Slot Cost 75 Food and 55 Gold. Cost 3 Pop Slots

Myrmidon- 36.5 HP Per Pop Slot Costs 70 Food and 50 Gold.

Part 2 The War Elephant

The War Elephant-Cost 180 Food 70 Gold

Pop Space- 5

HP- 450 HP ( Please Note with Free Medium Upgrade when reaching Heroic Age Elephant has 495 HP

HP Per Pop Slot 90 (Please note with Free Heroic Age Medium Upgrade Elephant has 99 HP Per Pop Slot

Part 3 The Tests

Here is the Results of the Tests i conducted and how it Turned out.(Please note all units are Base with no Line Upgrades and no Armory Up's...i also took away the War Elephants Free Meduim Upgrade it gets reaching Heroic Age meaning it's BASE Unit.vs.BASE unit...i feel this is the most fair way to get a Direct comparison. I also came as close to equal pop with Units as possiable some fights are 1 pop over but have suprising results!

10 Hoplites.Vs. 4 War Elephants- 2 Elephants live with Moderate HP's-This is suprising..cost and Pop Effetivly the War Elephant Wins out 720 Food and 280 Gold for the War Elephants.vs. the 400 food and 400 Gold for the cost of 10 Hoplites..Intresting.

10 Murmillo's .vs. 4 War Elephants -2 War Elephants live with moderate Hp's..Again the War Elephant cost and pop Effectivly Beats the Murmillo's...Compare 720 food and 280 Gold for the War Elephants .vs. the 550 Food and 300 Gold cost of the Murmillo's and War Elephants come out on Top again.

10 Ulfsarks. Vs. 4 War Elephants 3 Elephants survive with High Hp's...wow War Elephants realy kick the Ulfsarks down pretty Hard without the Bragi Tech. Again compre the 720 Food and 280 gold cost of the War Elephant.vs. the 500 food and 300 Gold cost of the Ulfsarks and we see again the Elephant comes out on top.

10 Spearmen.vs.4 War Elephants 3 Elephants live with Moderate/High Hp's...wow without the horus techs Elephants run right over Spearmen...again the elephant comes out on top compare the costs 720 food and 280 gold for the Elephants.vs. the 500 Food and 200 Gold cost of the Spearmen...i will admit though..in a cost effective Veiw...the spearmen fares better then the rest so far..the spears Almost break even after dieing which is good...shows Spears do their Job.

7 Hippikons.vs.4 War Elephants 3 elephants survive 1 with Low Hp's..wow now this impressed me...20 pop Slots of Elephants.vs.21 pop slots worth of Hippikons and the Elephants still win out...Impressive!..compare the costs again of 720 Food and 280 gold for the War Elephants.vs. 280 Food and 490 Gold for the Hippikons...elephant wins out Again.

7 Jarls.vs.4 War Elephants 2 Elephants survive with Moderate HP's..wow Again the War elephant has impressed me...it beats Jarls cost and pop Effectivly...looks like i know what do to as Isis if norse is spamming Jarls..again compare the costs..720 food and 280 gold for the War elephants.vs. the 350 food and 560 gold cost of the Jarls and we see once again the elephant wins out.

10 Raiding Cav.vs.4 War Elephants 4 War Elephants survive with Moderate Hp's...wow...and we though Raiding Cav were the Games most cost/pop effective unit...looks like the New boosted War elephant has replaced it..again compare the costs..720 Food 280 gold for the War Elephants.vs. 400 food and 500 gold for the 10 Raiding cav..and as you can see the War elephant comes out on top.

7 Contarious.Vs. 4 War Elephants 4 Elephants live with Mod HP's..wow the Contarious performed very poorly against the War elephant..they mooped the floor with them...again compare the cost..720 food and 280 gold for the War Elephants.vs. the 490 food and 280 gold cost for the Contarious..and Again...the boosted War Elephant comes though.

7 Greek Prodromos.vs.4 War Elephants 2 Elephants survive with Mod HP's...wow! this really suprised me...the Prodromos is the Elephants Direct counter...but yet at Equal pop of Elephants.vs. Prodromos the Elephants will win out!..Amazing...as for cost it is 720 food and 280 gold for the elephant.vs. 490 food and 280 gold for the Prodromos...means Elephants break even with them..but you will need "Mass" Prodromos to effectivly counter War Elephants.(Please note i didn't have The Meduim Upgrade in Effect but if both units have the Meduim Upgrade at equal pop the results are the same)

7 Camels.vs.4 War Elephants 3 Elephants survive with moderate Hp's...whoa...the Camel fared even worse then the Prodromos...very intresting and for the Camels Expensive cost...this is worry some...again compare the cost 720 food and 280 gold for the War elephant.vs. 350 food and 490 gold for the camels...means at equal pop...Camels can't take down equal pops worth of War elephants either.(Please note Camels have a BASE HP of 125..that is what i used..both units get Free meduim upgrade upon reaching Herioc...at 137 Hp's.vs.495 Hp's the Elephant still wins out at equal pop)

10 Katapeltes.vs.4 War Elephants 6 Katapeltes survive...well finally a unit that can beat the War elephant at equal pop...and for cost as well...compare the 720 food and 280 gold for the War elephant.vs. 600 food and 350 gold and the Katapeltes cost and pop effectivly beats the War elephant...took long enough to find 1 that could.

7 Zeus Myrmidons.vs.4 War Elephants 2 Myrmidons survive with low hp's..Myrmidons fare slightly worse then the Katapeltes...but atleast at equal pop and upgrades Myrmidons can take them down...that's good news..720 food and 280 gold.vs.490 food and 490 gold speak for themselves..way to go Myrmidon!

7 Atlantean Fanatics.vs.4 War Elephants 3 Fanatics live with Moderate to high Hp's..this is good news..man does the Fanatic tear up elephants...so Atlanteans have 2 ways of countering the War Elephant..Katapeltes or Fanatics...go Fanatics...they beat them cost and Pop Effectivly.

Please not all test were done and based on BASE No Armory up's, no unit Line ups, no mythological techs 1 Can argue that they will have Meduim Infantry or Meduim cav bye the time Egypt gets elephants and they should beat the elephants.

Well Elephants receive a FREE Medium Upgrade Automatically when they reach Herioc age and Get Acess to the War Elephant...with the Free Meduim Upgrade...Elephants have 495 Hp's which equates to 99HP's per Pop Slot...the most for any unit in the game bye far...and with all units having Meduim Upgrades...the results will be the Same of the Elephant winning out.

Part 4 Countering the War Elephant

Well the way i see it...the War Elephant only Fears the units Mentioned Below.

Spearmen with the Greatest of Fifty Tech given to them bye Horus in Mythic Age.

Ulfsarks With the Bragi Tech Swine Array avalabile to Loki and Thor players in Herioc Age.

Mass Greek Prodromos

Mass Atlantean Katapeltes

Mass Atlantean Fanatics

Mass Zeus Myrmidons

Mass Egyptian Camels/Spearmen(without Horus tech maybe)

Mass Cyclops or other Instant Kill myth units IE Mummy's Lampades, Argus, Medusa,

Those are the only units in the game the Elephant Fears...and before the Horus and Bragi Techs the Elephant will stomp on every unit except Mass Prodromos, Mass Fanatics, Mass Katapeltes, and Mass Zeus Myrmidons and Mass Camels...everything else...the elephant will own...and own badly...including All infantry, All Cav,All archers, and buildings

Very big resume that the Elephant will kill over 3/4 of the units in the game Before the Bragi and Horus cav bonus damage ups...very intrestings

so if your an Eggy player Spam those Elephants and Abuse...Because Over-Powered the War elephants are i think beating their direct Counters at Equal pop with the exception of Fanatics,Myrmidons,and Katapeltes.

Well hope you enjoyed my study maybe it will help

Author

Replies:

Mowie666
Mortal

posted 11 February 2004 08:17 PM EDT (US) 1 / 46

Good results, no wonder elitex owns with elephants + petsuchos..

Problem is their speed, and how easy they are to hit.. easy to gang up on a elephant , such a big target.. Also einherjar are great stats if you have 1 on 1, but they're too slow to make it happen. Same problem applies to elephants.

Good job tho

Etendorf
Mortal

posted 11 February 2004 08:44 PM EDT (US) 2 / 46

Those elephants sound really powerful and scary. Norse seem to have a horrible time, and I really think those prodomos should have done better.
But, what about some things you didn't include?
Maybe try doing the tests with equal upgrades for both sides, because wouldn't the upgrade per unit have more effect when you have more units? Also, what about build time and speed?
I think they are overpowered looking at those stats. But what about those upgrades?

Nick: Eten.
Gods: All of them!
Vanilla.

WeaponX00
Mortal

posted 11 February 2004 08:59 PM EDT (US) 3 / 46

Interesting how many units the Elephants can take down. No surprise with the Myramods(sp) because of their bonus against other civs and no surprise with the Kataples(sp) since their bonus against calvery but are elepahnts considered calvery? The Norse got a big problem since the Elephant toke out the ulfs, jarls, and RC. Nice Guide

"Wisdom begins in wonder."
-Socrates

IAmRa
Mortal

posted 11 February 2004 09:05 PM EDT (US) 4 / 46

Well if you give Greek Prodromos Spirited charge, Bachnillia, and Thracian Horses they may fare Better with all the Line-ups and Armory Up's

but if you give the War Elephant all the unit Line ups, Armory Line ups, and give the elephant Thoths Elephant Tech Tusks of apedemak...i belive the War elephant has around 742 Hp's....which makes it a Hardcore Tank...at Full ups with the Thoth elephant Tech..at 742 Hp's barring the Attack and Armor stats i don't know at this time...elephants may even own Myrmidons, Fanatics, and Katapeltes...742 Hp's is alot..and 25% base Hack Armor on top of the Hack armor and hack attack upgrades...i think the elephant will own in my opinion...i think fully Upgraded in Mythic with the Thoth Elephant Tech...elephants will be nearly unstopable

a192
Mortal

posted 11 February 2004 10:08 PM EDT (US) 5 / 46

Well...but war elephant has lots of disadvantage
1) slow - archers can hit and run elephants easily
2) large size - have difficult to target when you mass elephant
3) food cost - cost 180 per elephant
4) instantly kill Mu hurts elephant much

Pug
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 00:50 AM EDT (US) 6 / 46

When I fh with isis, i go eles/a few mixed rax/priests and a myth unit or two. Its very had to mass those due to the food though. I dont recall ever losing when I was able to get 5+ out with a good combo of slingers and preists mostly. Microing the priests to heal the eles really helps.

Nice analysis btw.

R.I.P Shiva

Redskim
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 00:55 AM EDT (US) 7 / 46

did u get the units to focus there attack one elephant at a time?

IAmRa
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 01:34 AM EDT (US) 8 / 46

Yes the results are Averages...for Example...i microed 4 Katapeltes to 1 elepant for example...thas the reason the Katapeltes won bye such a big Margin, same with the Fanatics,

I feel the Prodromos weakness is only 20% base Hack Armor...the elephant has 25%, the Katapltes has 34%

The hoplites if Microed would lose with sometimes 2 eles left 1 with low Hp or sometimes lose with 1 Elephant left with High HP

Your right the Elephant is only good for Close range attacks because it is so slow

but i think this Test shows the reasons why Elitex owns so much with Elephants

This test Merely shows the Elephant is the "Best" Meatshield in the game...meaning it can hang with any unit long enough for Slingers/Chariot Archers to kill the Elephants counter

Shifteh
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 01:53 AM EDT (US) 9 / 46

And so it should be

Interesting.. there are, of course, downsides, like build time and speed, but man, way to go Eles!

ManticoreKiller
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 02:15 AM EDT (US) 10 / 46

Really useful post buddy! I usually don't use elephants. I go with the sphinx for a meatshield while playing eggy. After reading this, i'm definitely going to give the elephant a shot. The only other time I used it was in the spc. Seemed really slow to me. I was looking up the elephant's stats recently and it occoured to me that a fully upgraded War Elephant with its myth upgrades can probably whack quite a few MUs . It would be interesting to see if this is true.

Author of Myth Unit Ratings, A Guide to the Nemean Lion, A Guide to the Valkyrie, A Guide to the Cyclops and A Guide to the Chimera

Bumat
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 04:20 AM EDT (US) 11 / 46

Other units the WE fears:
Mountain Giant (1 MG takes down 3 WE)
Fire Giant (1 FG takes down 3 WE)
Hydra (1 H takes down 3 WE)
and then there are probably a few others that not instantly kill a unit, but still do a good job...

- speak and show yourself -

NIB
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 06:36 AM EDT (US) 12 / 46

Try using thoth eles, thats scary, 750hp!!!

There are so many things that most ppl dont know. Lets not reveal them since this will only make them whine more.

PS Comparing mus with normal units is idiotic to say the least. Almost all mus beat almost all units cost/pop effectively.

ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

[This message has been edited by NIB (edited 02-12-2004 @ 06:37 AM).]

SeNaTe_SnIpEr_
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 06:44 AM EDT (US) 13 / 46

mispost

.......

[This message has been edited by SeNaTe_SnIpEr_ (edited 02-12-2004 @ 06:45 AM).]

DeathAndPain
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 06:45 AM EDT (US) 14 / 46

Quote:

This test Merely shows the Elephant is the "Best" Meatshield in the game...meaning it can hang with any unit long enough for Slingers/Chariot Archers to kill the Elephants counter

Not really - due to their slow speed, enemy cavalry can just circumvent them and slay the slingers/CA before dealing with the elephants themselves. The elephants cannot keep pace with the enemy maneuvers and even have difficulties marching up to to enemy in order to attack (pathing is not easy with that unit size).

Quote:

PS Comparing mus with normal units is idiotic to say the least. Almost all mus beat almost all units cost/pop effectively.

I think it is appropiate for elephants though, because unlike other units, the price of a single war elephant is comparable to that of other myth units. Basically, I would say that the war elephant is a myth unit with the special bonus that it does not count as a myth unit (therefore being hero-proof). The downside is that unlike other myth units, it counts as cavalry, so cavalry counters are effective.

badger_of_set
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 10:55 AM EDT (US) 15 / 46

Very nice article

The thing that surprised me the most was how poorly camels fared vs eles. I think its the poor hack armor that camels have. I would think Ra camels would fare better, but you would want to get the first hack upgrade for sure if you make a lot of camels (thats a good idea in general, not just when facing mass eles.)

I remember running some tests back when Odin Jarls were OP. Eles were the ONLY eggy unit that could hang with them (camels lost pop and cost effecively to Odin Jarls back in the day.) That was also before eles got the extra base hack armor. That they work well in a test environment (except vs their few "hard" counters) is proven.

The problem is how to use those guys in a game. As mowie pointed out, the ele will draw pretty much all arrow fire to it, given that it has the most HP and is the largest target in a battle. This will drastically reduce it's life expectancy in a battle where you face real archers (chariots, arcus, toxotes.) Don't forget, one of the reasons why camels do so good vs archers is that they cannot be hit while moving, whereas eles can (by virtue of their large size and slow speed and terrible pathing.)

From what I've seen, the best way to use them is in conjunction with a central midgol/tower push. That way, the eles get arrow fire support AND don't have to go very far to get to their target. Surprisingly, you might do better with adding slingers to the eles then axemen, as the eles have more to fear from archers then they do from anti-cav units (I would make axemen vs norse and attie for sure, though.)

Quircus
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 11:10 AM EDT (US) 16 / 46

I really can't see why you used Base Stats....in ALL games, you start with Free Medium Upgrades - and most probably all of the armoury techs too.

It would have been better if you used Heroic Stats (i.e. All line ups and Armoury Techs that are available in Heroic)

Good test though.

sMb_legend
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 11:30 AM EDT (US) 17 / 46

pff, you compare basic ulfsarks to medium elephants....the heroic units are stronger than the archatic/classical ones. That you can see at the test results also, the heroic/mycthic units were the only ones who could stand up to the elephants massive power.

IAmRa
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 12:22 PM EDT (US) 18 / 46

SMB....I compared BASE Elephants to BASE Ulfsarks

The Elephant has 450 BASE Hp's

When you Reach Herioc with Eggy...and get Acess to the Elephant..it gets a small boost and it has 495 HP's

The Test was Conducted on the BASE Elephant...meaing the Elephant only had 450 Hp's and not 495 Hp's and not the Extra Attack

These Tests Show...that say if your Ulfs Had the Meduim Infantry Up, and maybe the Hack Armor/Hack Attack Up, The Elephant gets a small boost when reaching Herioc...Give it 495 HP's...with out the Bragi Tech..Elephants will win at EQUAL Pop.

remember these Tests are Base and at EQUAL pop..meaning...Train time comes into Play..as well as Pop cost and how many pop spaces are available per player

You should beable to Beat elephants...maybe not Cost Effectivly...but still beable to beat them...Ulfsarks train faster then the elephant and cost less...so you should beable to produce enough of them to beat the Elephant maybe with Proper micro...just because a Unit beats another unit at equal pop don't mean that unit isn't it's counter...Train time, and other things come into play as well as tecs.

As for the Greek Prodromos...i feel it is a good Counter...they train much faster and from a Cheaper building, and they cost less and do receive a 3x Damage bonus...in a REAL Game situatiution...you would have prolly between 8-10 PRodromos.vs. 4 Elephants...in which the Prodromos would win

The same likewise goes for the Camel

all this post shows is the Elephant is useful...for Close range attacks if you got a forward Migdol push going on..as they are slow...but are a good "Meatshield" for your Support units...is all im saying...Cav, Infantry, is all meatsheilds...this post just proves in close battles the Elephant is the Best Meatsheild.

and 4 elephants with some Chariots behind them would beat say 12 Fanatics for example...as the Chariots do hardcore damage to Fanatics...alot of this game is about Micro as well

Many factors come into play...when testing a unit...and using it in a real game

miloman
Immortal

posted 12 February 2004 01:55 PM EDT (US) 19 / 46

Death and Pain: It is not fair to compare elephants with myth units, because they are not myth units! It is just a very strong human unit which has its weakness as discussed (slow, easily countered with some units), but in terms of cost as IamRa has pointed out, it has the most hp per pop slot/cost in the game. The bottom line is that it is a human unit, not a myth unit.

Swyck
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 09:01 PM EDT (US) 20 / 46

I feel like I stumbled into the middle of a conversation somewhere and I'm missing some obvious point.

Can someone tell me how do you get Elephant's prior to Heroic? Because as far as I know, they are made at the Migdol which is not available prior to heroic.

Amon_Ra121
Mortal

posted 12 February 2004 09:25 PM EDT (US) 21 / 46

Quote:

It is not fair to compare elephants with myth units, because they are not myth units! It is just a very strong human unit which has its weakness as discussed (slow, easily countered with some units), but in terms of cost as IamRa has pointed out, it has the most hp per pop slot/cost in the game. The bottom line is that it is a human unit, not a myth unit.

Yes, but they are almost as strong. 22 hack attack, fully upgraded seems like a wopper to me. Their like a lesser version of a Behemoth, but would only win if it were like 5 WE to 1 Behemoth.....MU's - supposed to kill HUMANS

[This message has been edited by Amon_Ra121 (edited 02-12-2004 @ 09:29 PM).]

Bumat
Mortal

posted 13 February 2004 04:14 AM EDT (US) 22 / 46

Yo NIB,
IAmRa stated himself somthing about MU's

Quote:

Mass Cyclops or other Instant Kill myth units IE Mummy's Lampades, Argus, Medusa

I just added some other MU's that do not instantly kill...

Next to that, the WE does quite well against some other MU's (a lot better than most other human units except the Jarl).

And if you want another WE counter for unupgraded WE, use some villies. 5 villies against 1 WE results in 4 villies still living afterwards...

- speak and show yourself -

Cicero_
Mortal

posted 13 February 2004 07:02 AM EDT (US) 23 / 46

Did you set a trigger giving the ulf player advancement to the classical age?

Cicero_The great numbers in which you are here met this day, O Romans, and this assembly, greater than, it seems to me, I ever remember, inspires me with both an exceeding eagerness to defend the republic and with a great hope of relenquishing it.
-Cicero's Fourth Philippic [106 B.C.-43 B.C.]

AFK_Tick
Mortal

posted 13 February 2004 11:37 AM EDT (US) 24 / 46

Swyck, you can't get elephants before Heroic.

The confusing thing is that ES actually created an elephant with classical stats - when you advance to heroic, you automatically get the heroic upgrade to the elephant.

In game, it makes no difference. However, in the editor, if you forget to tell it that the elephant is in heroic, it'll give you a lesser version of an elephant.

foxxbat
Mortal

posted 14 February 2004 09:16 AM EDT (US) 25 / 46

I think im missin sumthin here, the whole point of AOM is the RockPaperScissors thing. no one is stupid nuff to have armies exclusively of human units even in the classical age. esp norse once the fightin starts, otherwise the favor goes to waste. yup im a confirmed loki rusher, dont play online much cuz i dont have a good net connection, mainly play over lan with my pals at a local joint or have lan parties at home.

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