posted 29 March 2004 02:12 PM EDT (US)
As an Odin player, I struggled for a long time to overcome Classical forces of Greeks ( Powerful ) and Egyptians ( Quickly produced Counters, and CHEAP )
At first, I followed the Guides I’d read, and used large amount of raiding cavalry as my first produced unit, raiding enemy gold and Woodies, a house when there was nothing else, this was not in-effective, but any good Egyptian or Greek ( or Norse for the matter ) can easily overcome this if they Age Classical in a timely manner and place a few Counters within their Villy piles, which means you just run through... Your Odin advantage of being fastest to classical is all but wasted when this happens, and there’s a noticeable weakness during this time for Odin, Egyptian units train quicker, and cheaper, and confrontation with a like-sized Greek force will end in your loss.
It left me scrambling around the map, raiding more to keep my enemy chasing me, and away from my forward base and economy, than to actually damage him, Stopping to fight would mean losing my raiders, and when that happened I found myself un-able to recover and defend myself in classical. This strategy became in-effective with players 1800+, and difficult even below that, Players wiser would find and make a straight march for my forward, forcing me into a fight that always seemed uphill, or would send small raiding parties of their own at my mining and hunting groups.
Every Guide I read listed the Ulfsark as an easily countered and all but obsolete unit, and my first experiences using the unit affirmed this, Raiding cavalry cost the same raw resources, for a faster unit, with more hitpoints, and great pierce armor for the raiding I knew I needed to Slow, and occupy my enemy as I made my bid to heroic, and vie for map Control.
All my attempts at raiding and attacking with Ulfsarks were pretty ugly, they dropped like flys under arrow fire, and so I never thought to make them in favor of raiding cavalry.
But I knew something was missing in Classical, because a good player CAN all-together defend himself from raiding cavalry stabs after 6 minutes, and when he does, your left the weakling in Classical.
An army of Raiding cavalry and Throwing axemen are more expensive, and much slower to produce, than an equal population army of Egyptian Slingers and Spearmen, and they lose to them.
An army of Raiding cavalry and Throwing Axemen of equal population take longer to produce, are comparably expensive, and once again, Lose to an equal population force of Greek Hoplites and Toxotes.
I knew my early game was missing something, at least I hoped it was, or my Civ seemed a bit hopeless. So I tried something new...
My same early classical, 5 Hunter/Hunting dogs build ( You Odin players know what I'm talking about )
But this time I'd pump out Ulfsarks non-stop from my 2 barracks immediately after hitting classical, and I raided with them, anything outside of arrow range. I found I had a larger force, faster, than when I produced Raiding cavalry, my enemy could not produce a like-sized force for awhile to confront me, and I was free to raid for before anyone showed real resistance outside range of their TC, and take out key buildings before many players had arrow-firing towers.
6-8 ulfsarks at the enemy base before most players hit classical, and I was in a comfortable position to pump villies, and dwarves, non-stop. As well as get my upgrades, Wood first, and later mining.
This was the hole in Classical I'd so long wondered how to fill , Our classical armys will get crushed by alike-massed eggys or greeks, Our counter? Early numbers, and hitting first! Welcome to the Ulfsark. The earliest army in the game.
When you hit classical, Throw up those barracks immediately, and send your ravens in a tear-drop fashion around your enemies base, you can scout his Entire base in one swoop. When those barracks come up, You’ll have the resources to que ulfys non-stop. 6 to 8 gathered outside his base about 5:30, and another 6 to re-enforce or attack from another side, Very shortly after. Take out a house thats outside his TC range. You didnt just take 50 wood, you likely took damn near 30 seconds from his build. If you take down 2 houses, even better... He's compensating to replace those houses, and its hurting his military production times badly. While you continue to pump units, and your economy takes off. A good player has built his miltary production facilitys inside his TC range, there's no use trying to hit those, you will die terribly under TC fire, and forfeit the advantage you've gained in numbers, there's a few things you can do from here, and they depend largely on your opponents counters and strategy up unto this point, but often times in my game, this is what I see... He’ll likely first make Toxotes and place them within the protection of TC range, you can no longer raid with your Ulfsarks... Watch for wandering villager groups, but back up, build a 3rd barrack, and make a more combined force. If you've slowed him enough with your early raiding, you can often Plop a tower within range of his starting gold pile, re-enforce it with an Einherjar, and he's in no position to take back control of it, NOW is when your raiding cavalry become an asset, Once you have 3 to 4 Barracks up you can produce them in a fast enough manner to maintain a larger force, Scout out and attack what other Gold mines he's likely to expand to, or make a swing through his woodie pile ( your Ulfsarks can raid as well, Send your Einherjar to your forward tower, He’s a tough cookie, then you have more freedom in splitting your forces to raid, If his towers are upgraded though, Don’t bother using Ulfys ) Keep them with the towers, and make swings with your raiding cavalry through his woodies. He’s got one last chance here, and it’s a push to secure a new gold mine, There’s 2 sides to every enemy base, and you can only secure one with your tower, So keep those ravens moving on the opposite side, because that’s where he’s looking to move. Keep your original forward towers reinforced!!! If you have more than one Einherjar at this point you’re a little safer, but don’t make the mistake of marching your entire army around his base to chase off his stab at a new mine, He can quickly turn around and Flatten your forward towers, even with villagers! And shortly after your army will be next. You can’t contain him completely right now so don’t try, Don’t put your army in the open, keep them at your towers, and raid with your RC I’d suggest discouraging his expansion with your Raiding cavalry, Building towers that you can’t protect with a sizeable force is a wasted investment, Keep your main force with your forward towers, knocking at his door, and use your raiding cavalry to harass the opposite side, If he sends a good sized force at them, take your army from at your towers, and knock something down. When your popped out, Go Heroic and here’s some tricks to ending the Game: Take most ( leave an Einherjar and a handful of TA’s ) of your army and March directly at his main mining operation. He’ll march right out to meet you. Frost Him, and throw down a Hill fort ( or 2 ) between him and retreating to his base, Wreck any towers in the area with any unit that can’t build ( IE: RC and Einherjar ) Place your army on top if his, or blocking his retreat, and wait to Slaughter him ( you can even build walls around his army, they love that :-) This games likely over, but watch out for a Stab back at your Original towers, I’ve seen a lot of desperate villager stabs at this point, and I’ve lost games from it. ( that’s why you kept a handful of units there ) Cease-Fire automatically stops your early Ulfy raid, so consider this scenario your guide through that situation... Raid, Pop-Out past 100 and look to go Heroic, If you get there first, with an army, Go with the Freeze tactic ( strike at his gold mine, Freeze him, and Put your hill forts on top of him, as mentioned above ) He doesn’t have Cease-fire to prevent it… If he's somehow made it to heroic somewhat on par with you, Or his nearest gold expansion is well protected or close to home, Build your hill fort AWAY from the front line, his catapults will make short work of it if you try to use it offensively, even with a smaller force, under a tower push and with a good toxote force he can lay waste to your forward before you’ve produced those huskarls you need. What else...? Things to consider. Poseidon players raiding you with Hippikons, well, Since your massing Ulfys early on, you do well against this, if hes sneakin em around your forward force, just throw a few back with your miners and woodies, No biggie. If He's built towers and consolidated expansion gold... You always have the heavy huskarl , which is the Greek ass-kicker, but it's gonna be a tough fight if hes gotten to this point, catapults + a powerful greek force are really ugly... It's anyones game here, Upgrade your Huskarls heavily, and hit him where it hurts!!! In the gold, your frost GP is your best way to turn the tide here. Expansion factors: I didnt mention expansion TC's once here, and theres good reason, Vs a Greek you NEED those huskarls as quickly as possible, your hill fort should go up before your Second TC... Your using your units to prevent his expansion to new gold, and are filling your ranks of killed units with the more effective Huskarl, and thats where your wood and gold should be going. Ok.. I think thats enough vs. Greek.. Important points? Map control via towers to support your larger, but counter-vulnerable ulfy force. If you were able to hit him early, the games in the bag if you play it right, If cease-fire, or a very veteran classical time was made by him, out-mass him and Raid heavily as you Pop-out and go Heroic, where your Huskarls and God power can end this game. It's easier for early raiding purposes, on average... His axemen are something to fear for your early Ulfy force, but you dont have cease-fire to worry about, and so taking down a house or two early on is much more easily done, as is raping his woodies or an outlying hunting group.Egyptians have to expand to Gold more quickly, as they use a lot of it, and so Raiding cavalry are more of an asset in this game, I really feel the spearmen is an in-adequate classical cavalry counter, and since he needs more gold than a Greek, There are more hit and run raid oppurtunities here. Again though, Remember RC take twice as long to produce, so unless hes Over-heavy on axemen, make Ulfys and get that forward tower up. If you take down a house or two, or give His villies a good run, he slows down, you should be out-massing him, and he’ll need another mine shortly to stay in the game, , to end this game completely, deny that! Consolidate gold with towers, Egyptians are less adept at taking them down than greeks, 2 towers is a good deterrent Vs Egyptians, if he gets his dirty little hands on another pile of gold your in for a longer game... Not to mention, If he goes heroic you can expect those God-forsaken Ancestors, So stay heavy on the raiding, Pop out, and Get there first! Egyptians don’t get ceasefire, but they do have those free towers, and As Heimdall, if he's gotten his monument up, often you can't as easily smash one down. This still wont help him when he’s trying to move to new gold though, so take out a house early and then stay away from those towers, Remember, His build is hurt if you took down a house, even if only by 15 seconds, it's significant, because yours is un-touched, so maintain a larger force, and use it to consolidate gold and prevent his expansion. Pop-out ( making more RC than you would vs a Greek ) raid where you can, and Go heroic... Once again, I suggest going Skadi, as frost is a great way to buy time to build your Very powerful Odin Heroic units, or a Great trap to ruin his army. If the game is looking to go longer, The Jarl is what you want as the mainstay of your army, With TA to back and build your Hillforts, which you can forward build and use offensively Vs an Eggy player ( and you should ) None of those pesky catapults to worry bout here, and your TA’s can make short work of his melee Siege engines. I hope I covered most of that... The major points I stress vs Egyptians would be... Get that first tower up Early, he can really out-produce you with those cheapy counter units, But they have a tougher time taking down buildings than your Greek opponent, they also have terrible pierce armor. A tower gives you great staying power. Keep a good sized RC force and make him work for his gold, every tower he builds slows his Heroic that much more. Use your towers to fall back to, don’t fight in the open , he can out-swarm you in classical. He wont attempt to raid you until he's secured those gold spots you keep raping, So rape away! Tower them where you can, fight on them, and Go heroic, Where you can push him off them! You've made classical faster than Thor or Loki... Make Hersir throughout your Classical aging, because a Loki player will be… Send your Hersir, along with your Ulfys, straight at his Barracks and temple, which were probably just constructed, and have yet to produce any units. With his forward down, You have a commanding advantage while he rebuilds his Longhouses, So pop-Out, making TA’s in mass, ( this is dual purpose, Not only are they very effective Vs. Norse, but it saves your food for a fast Heroic ) Throw a tower at his front door, and hit the heroic button, As you age, Create RC and look for those wandering Ox cart groups. Throw down your Hillfort offensively to push where you want to, preferably at his main gold expansion, Using frost to defend it's construction ( or once again, to take out his Army, this is a GREAT game ender ) If you can’t end the game her, Raid Heavily, and keep your main force with your Hill fort, I suggest the TA as the mainstay of your Army, Get the Huntress Axe upgrade and mass them, With your Ulfys as the perfect partner in crime. It’s time to Ram this one home. Throw out 3 or 4 and Run him over, TA protect rams pretty well with their range, target the units approaching your rams first. If he’s gone ridiculously tower heavy you can hold off, That just means he’s wasted resources and is that much further from going Heroic, Build a second and third TC and Get Big! Start a semi-circle of Towers around his base so you don’t have to worry about him sneaking off to tackle your TC’s, Won’t be long before your numbers are just too much for him, and there’s always the “favor machine” ( Ballistae ) in Mythic, if you really don’t feel good about charging in. This games over. Odin's a great god, with alot of great bonus's, and to really harness his power, you need to use all of them, Use that early Economic momentum, and amazingly fast classical to hit EARLY, you can attack before any other Civ can produce units, and you HAVE TO! It's a 3-fold bonus, You hurt him early, You outnumber him early, and you put him defensive, allowing yourself no worry of hurt to your own economy. From here you take map control and your own your way to the Heroic Age, which holds even greater bonus's, Amazingly powerful units, and game-winning God powers. Here's My build, To knock on your enemys door with 6 ulfsarks before 5:30, and 2 more every 9 seconds after. 5 Hunters ( always immediately research hunting dogs ) Yes, only 2 ox-carts, a bad map will call for 3, 95% of the time your straggler tree's will do until after you've gone classical and put up your barracks though, and if theres a forest near your gold mine, Cake! The economy supports Non-stop Ulfy production from these 2 barracks, along with constant dwarf and villy production, I usually Que up a 4th dwarf for mining, first, and que villys to my pigs or goats ( at my TC ) from there on... It's risky business to tower-push at his starting gold mine, since he can harass you with ranged units protected by TC fire, so close to his home, but 10 Ulfys build a tower pretty fast, and If he hasnt snuck away and established another mining operation, Just the time it takes him to move to a new mine once your tower starts picking off his villys, is usually the end of him. Yup.. it is micro heavy, managing your ulfsarks, keeping your hunting party Hunting, and Que'ing and assigning your new villagers, but it is manageable, isnt Micromanagement the bread and butter of RTS? Practice Practice Practice, It works. Talon I thought I'd add a bit more, both to answer some peoples concerns and to explain some more concepts I think are important. First I wanted to talk about Minor God choices, a couple people mentioned this, Mostly Freyja because I know there are alot of thundering hooves fans. I personally, Always use Heimdall. Why? Not for Undermine, don't get me wrong Undermine is great, It's simple and useful, but honestly, Forest fire can be much more costly to your enemy when given good attention. That forest fire GP is underrated! Your hitting Classical EARLY early, and stopping his wood production, even shortly, at this time, is seriously crippling if he doesnt have the wood required for crucial buildings already, So swing those ravens in a tight circle around his base and burn the forest he's started chopping at, Send your Ulfys around to what other forest he's likely to move them to and chase them from their task once again, If he's smart he'll make use of what straggler trees he has for the moment. But still, He's had 4 to 5 villagers idle a good while now though, and that HURTS this early in the game, not to mention, It can delay the construction of crucial buildings for him, If he's choking for wood, and your knocking down houses, this is going to be one short game! It's terribly effective and crippling early, but dont expect to completely choke your opponents from wood, it's too abundant on the map, What your hitting it accomplishes, is slowing his House building, His barrack building, and against a greek opponent, you've taken the resource he needs to produce Toxotes, One more cookie for you. Heimdall is the choice for less Micro, his GP is simple and useful, his Myth unit more easily paid for, and slightly stronger at supporting your army. Freyja for a more agressive approach, Forest fire early, and knock down some houses for extra Wood-starving effect. Make sure you have the Food to put out some Valkyrie's! They're great units to raid with, 2 are a raiding party all by themselves. 90% of my choice is made for me by her God power, which I think is one of the bess in the game, If not THE best. Skadi also has the Huntress Axe, I use alot of TA's leading up to the Heroic age, so I like this tech a good deal. TA's dont cost food, their range make them a great Defensive unit to keep with my towers and hill forts, and they'll shoot my Hillforts up in no time when I age, so I always have a dozen or more, and this tech makes them that much better... I know what your thinking though.. How can you not want Ring-giver? Well against an Egyptian this is an argument, but I'd still go with Skadi, A large Jarl force is Expensive to make all by itself, and this tech at 300 food and 30 favor is no small price either... My games are usually decided or over when I hit Heroic. The game-deciding blow Frost gives is more of a winner to me, than a HP increase in an army it would take me a good deal of time to build up. I find the later a game goes, the more difficult it becomes to end it. The mountain Giant? A fun unit for sure, but 300 Food I dont often have... and a Hasty attempt to wipe your opponent off the map too early is only hurting you. Out-power, Contain, and Out-pop. Once again, the frost GP is a great way to take more map control. Where'd you get the food and gold to go Mythic? If somehow you enter Mythic in a competitive game... Consider Ragnarok if you feel you have him on the run, and just run him over completely. Fimbulwinter if you feel your in for the long haul, It's an economic pause for him, and Gives you Fenris wolves, Fun toy! If a structure front has developed bring out the " favor machine " ( Ballista ) Force him to come charging, and wreck him. Nuff said about Mythic, you shouldnt have gotten to Mythic, I can't stress how much harder the games going to be in this age if your opponent is still in the game. We gain 95% of our full power in Heroic, and should end the game their. Well there's little to say here, I gave you the exact build, follow it or improve it, and practice. One thing to mention, If you can't find huntables by the time your 6th villager comes out, he joins your food group ( gathering berrys or chickens ) and KEEP LOOKING, You MUST hunt. Manage your hunter's, keep your ox cart right along side those carcass's, Que a couple dwarves to join your starting 3 on mining, then villagers on your herdables ( which I always save until this point ) Here are the 3 Commandements of your Classical Economy. Upgrade lumber when you age, and your mining later Let me start by saying, if you have a set time in the game where you begin farming in your build, It's time to develop a new build! If your low on a rescource, don't cripple yourself moving and re-tasking villagers, set your newly produced villagers to that resource you need, and REVOLVE YOUR UNIT production around what resources you do have. You lose alot less economic momentum in this fashion. Your often better off creating a military unit that is only 60% as effective, with what resources you do have, than giving your villagers idle time walking, and delaying military production to create that unit you want, In the classical age numbers are probably the most important factor in your armys power. Low on food? Start producing TA's, You already have Ulfsarks to deal with cavalry, and you can pop up a tower without food as well to make up for their shortcomings against archers. Only Infantry and cavalry will touch those towers, and you counter both. Your raiding cavalry should be Raiding anyway, not trying to dispatch his archers, so dont worry about archer counters too much at this point. Need wood? If you have a mine adjacent to a forest put your OX-cart on the adjoining side and take any villagers that are mining, and re-task them to lumber. Need gold? Produce villager's and send them to mine, keep 2 Ox-carts at large mining operations , One on each long side of Mine.. When the need for as much gold ends, you can take that second ox cart with your villagers to where your re-tasking them. There are 3 Huge new things in the Heroic age HillForts Notice, None of these things cost food? Where Classical is the Age of food Your 2 immediate priorities and Getting your Hill forts up, and Building a market, these things cost Wood, as do Huskarls and Throwing axemen, which are a powerful combination, use Hillforts to support them against Egyptian axemen, the only counter to this combination. You can tailor the rest of your game using only market-bought food. Even if you decide to go Jarl's, or find you want to make more Ulfsarks, Consider first sending an Ox cart group to berries, then consider buying the food, before considering farming, here's why. Stop for a second and consider the cost of beginning farming right now as opposed to buying your food. 8 Farms around your TC for a minimal flow of food will cost you 600 Wood... But wait, Dont forget, you'll now want plow as well, But wait, theyre still 10% slower than your woodies at gathering, Winter Harvest right? Ok , Now they're slightly faster than your woodies, at the small cost of 1000 units of raw resources, Let's not forget the time it took to move those villagers, the time it takes to build the farms, and the time it takes to research your farming upgrades, not to mention, the favor. It costs something like 1300 Raw resource units cost All of this at the best potential time to end this game. So on we go, Chop and Mine, Buy food when you need it, tailor your army so you don't. When your raiding in classical you need to be cautious about losing those units, theyre still a good fraction of your Unit force, if you lose them, You may find yourself outnumbered back at your towers... So what are acceptable losses? You'll hear alot of players with the " If I can't kill something worth as many resources as the units Im losing, It isnt worth it to raid " Logic. But actually Killing units is a small percentage of the damage your doing to your opponent. Raiding is more about "disruption" than "killing". Consider you run 6 Raiding cavalry at one of his mining groups, let's say half a dozen miners, He retreats and moves a protective force to the mine, You don't kill anything before you have to retreat from his counters, and he's back mining there only 20 seconds later... Was this raid useless because you didnt kill anything? No... Those 7 villagers would have produced 150 or more gold in the time they were flee'ing and returning to the mine. This raid was effective, though not crippling. There's even more to it though, It has a psychological effect! Many players punish themselves more than you will, after you flee, They build a tower! Tack 200 Wood, and another hundred gold onto that raid's tally. So consider this when assess'ing what is an acceptable loss, Sometimes it's worth losing a couple units. This is why you built your towers offensively, on resources close to him, and as close as possible to him. Not just to keep him defensive, but because the closer your arrow-influence to his Base, the more Map you make off-limits to him behind it, this is why your second tower should be built not closer to his buildings, but in a semi-circle fashion to cut off more map from him. Exceptions being, if you can build that second tower close enough to fire on one of his mining operations. So he's found an expansion opposite your forward towers, and your stuck defending them? Raid him... use your raiding cavalry, make swings through his new gold operation, if he moves too many counters there, make swings through his woodie pile. Once again, your raids are dual-purpose, Your likely not killing much at this point, But your keeping him occupied, on the defensive, and tempting him to waste resources on towers. All the while your resources are going toward your bid for Heroic, where you'll have the power to end this game. My #1 source of losses has been from Greek players. Early Ulfsark Bolting and Cease-fire aside, they have a disgusting leverage in Military that we do not, and dare I admit, I traded sides this weekend to play Zeus for about 50 games, to see if my civ really was inferior, as I was beginning to think, after losing to some players I felt really had less game than me. But good news... After just a dozen games ( even though I was winning early, and frequently ) I was already missing Norse. Like I'm sure the game designers intended, Each civ has its strength and its weakness's, but they're not always obvious, especially if you havent sat on both sides of the board, So here's the good and the bad, Strength and weakness's of the Norse Vs. Greek game. The Greek's have an advantage in classical, and it isnt the Toxote, It's the Hoplite... With 40% hack armor and 115 HP's, it's a behemoth, EVERY Norse unit, minus the TA, loses pound for pound, to the hoplite. Then you have the long-reaching toxote to murder your only counter ( which is unfortunately, a much less effective counter than his units are to yours ) Seems hopeless doesnt it? Well, bad news, it is. You wont win head-to-head with a likesize force of greek units. Yup, those greek units will kick your lilly ass if you run into them head to head with both sides having choice unit combinations. Greek's were designed more powerful in this way. Can you win army to army in open field, in classical? But don't think that means, your always losing in classical, their unit strength is their ONLY advantage here. Where's our advantage? Speed, Our Economy ( which without you raiding, is still superiour to theirs ) versatility in producing military, an un-fettered economy, and the pure and pleasurable ability to tear his a new one. How can you exploit these things to take control of the game? Well your first advantage is your economy, So keep an eye on your wagon-totin cows, Place them appropriately, and keep moving them as the resources move ( be it, hunting or wood, or even berrys, keep Moving them! ) Managing your economy goes without saying, but our economy is what allows our second advantage, Speed. We can produce a faster, more diverse force than our greek opponent given our economic power. First, we have more resources because of shorter travel times, faster gold gathering, and more huntability. Second, we can create a more diverse military force from less buildings, and more quickly turn the tide of our unit production to counter our enemys units, I can't even express how annoying it was to me, to have to create 3 different buildings as Greek, to make all my units. It's inhibiting and alot more micro. First, You have the first miltary in the game, and your classical god powers tell you exactly what to do... Attack, Early and aggressively! Like I mentioned, He needs at least 6 miltary buildings to have the versatility and counter-ability you have with 2-3, and you can have an attack force amassed around the time he starts building them. Yes, he has superior strangth in units, too bad for him, He doesnt have any yet! :-D So either go Early Ulfsarks with Heimdall, Tearing down a guard tower and hitting his woodies, or go Freyja, Burn down his forest, and likewise, hit his woodies when they move with RC. Wood is critical to make his miltary buildings right now, and he needs alot of them to put up a good fight, What is wood to a greek player right now? It's his Military buildings, It's his Toxotes, and it's the farms he's going to need, because your NOT going to let him gather any other way. Don't ever think this period of the game is the end, You'll never end a game in classical, but you absoltuely HAVE to use your advantage, because he'll quickly gain his, in a large powerful classical force, and it is in-evitable that he'll build an army that you cannot defeat, even if your raids are succesful, 95% of the time he will still defend himself and recover, it's your job, to win this game, to take advantage of the time it takes him to recover ( by your raids, and his need to farm ) to build a sizeable force and go heroic before him. Raiding is your ticket to a faster Heroic, nothing else, your not Loki, you cannot win head-to-head in classical to stop his expansion to new gold, you can only harass his attempts, and pull a rug or two from under his feet early. Before I go on to Heroic let me share my common Military make-up as of late. Start with 6 ulfsarks, and tear soemthing down, be it a house, or barracks, or tower you dont want to deal with later. This, firstly, gives you an early numbers advantage, and secondly, manipulates his army make-up for your next produced unit, at least 8-10 Raiding calavry, from 3 barracks ( build a 3rd with your Hersir, as your first 2 pump your ulfys ) Don't waste time chasing his villagers around with your ulfsarks, theyll in-evitably get picked off by arrow fire, you dont want to lose units right now, every unit you lose is a unit you need to replace before going heroic, So tear something down, Run through his wood gathering area, make him run, but dont bother giving chase, tear down the storage pit instead. Here comes your RC, so I pull back my ulfsarks and mind my RC, and hit his woodies your RC can chase aorund his villagers with much less worry of getting picked off, 30 more HP's, and 30% armor serve them well for this. Harass him like there's no tommorow with these 10 RC, but DONT lose them... They're essential to support your next produced unit, Throwing axemen, Why TA right now? So many reasons, but the Main one of probably the least obvious, you want to conserve food right now. It's also the 3rd unit required to create a well-balanced army, and a good counter to the hoplites hes likely making to fend off your RC. finally, it's a foot unit, and it builds, essential when you age... During your aging, Create more ulfsarks, they're great for the coming tactics, mainly, taking down buildings, but they arent a terrible unit against Hoplites either. Some of you may be saying, 6 Ulfys, 10 RC, and 10 or so TA? that's not full pop... No, it's not. You might have only 80 pop, but why bother going 115? Your not going to defeat him in open battle, anyway, much less make a successful attack at his home, so go heroic, You can fill out your pop while your aging. So you hit heroic, likely WELL before he does, during all this, he's filling out his pop with more expensive units, & converting to farming, he's not going heroic anytime on par with you. As you go heroic, Convert your economy to wood and gold, and when you age, Build a TC... Which one? The one FURTHEST from him!!! I know what your think again.. Don't I want to contest that middle TC? No.. You want a safe population advantage. Often you can even build a 3rd TC before you see him meander away from his base, and make his own attempt at expansion. Do it, and fill out your pop some more. No need for a Hillfort yet, use the resources to fill out your pop, if you find yourself really well off in the gold and wood section, get your TC upgrade now, and fill out even more Pop, Ulfys and TA should be your mainstay. About this time, ( as you take your second TC, and are filling out your pop, he'll start buolding his first expansion TC, &/or a fortress. You have 2 options now, Gone Njord? I wouldnt let him build that forward TC, you might need to forego building your 3rd TC to be ready to strike his attempt at expansion, so keep an eye on his outlying TC's with your ravens, as soon as you see him making a move to claim one, Move your army their, and chase him off with walking woods support. Claim the TC while your tree's chase him off. You have superior poulation force, if he diecides to take a stand and fight you here, it could be close, but Im usually confident, with the heap of hitpoints walking woods add to my army, and a superiour pop force, this is one fight I will give him a run for his money. If he runs off, Build that TC for yourself, and fill the pop, look at filling that pop with some MU's Went skadi? Let him build that TC! Let him build the fortess too! Build your 3rd TC and fill the pop, then march straight for him, Freeze him and tear that crap down, wasted money for him :-) Build your own on it, you now have WAY superiour Pop miltary force, and a TC to fight by when he thaws out, if he fights, so be it... murder him, Now's the time to ed this game, Don't pause, Don't consolidate, Attack! He's no longer the stronger, Kick his lilly ass all over the map, on gold especially, make more RC and punish him. One Hill fort for rams and no more, at first, don't waste your momentum investing in and upgrading jarls, Hoplites are the perfect counter, make huskarls instead, they'll benefit from the infantry upgrades you already researched, and you know you'll be on the atatcking end of his towers and fortress's for the rest of the game. So it's time to end the game now... Easier said then done right, trust me, I know. Once they get those petroboli it's a defensive battle in their favor... and even with superiour pop AND economy, I've STILL lost games. It sucks, so Consider these things. Building your Hillforts at home, with your barracks, As far away as possible from his petroboli. Walling things off... Use walls, wall off your economy. and wall him away from his. once those walls are up, you have advanced warning of any of his raid attempts, and more leverage in performing your own, God, it's so diffuclt to end the game here, with 1 or 2 TC's, if he's built his fortress close to his TC, it's STILL going to be a losing battle with him hiding amidst towers and fortress's, using his ranged and siege to leverage his way out where he needs to, that's why you built at home, so he has no leverage with his siege to force you into a hasty attack and turn this game. So you dont have to attack right now, and you have superiour unit force... How do you end the game? You raid the Bejesus out of him, Your number advantage WILL NOT win you a battle against a greek, on his ground, how many times have you tried to maze your way through his honeycomb of buildings and watched your larger army torn to pieces? It's rediculous huh? So don't do it, use your numbers advantage to make a large force of meanly upgraded RC, and raid him to no end. Don't be afraid to take some losses, Skewer those villies, make him bring 10 or more Hoplites to guard, Now comes your rams, from the opposite side, guarded by Huskarls and TA, to ram this one home. View your Raiding cavalry as your leverage, much like his Petroboli... With 20+ Raiding cavalry, He either splits his force to deal with you, or he takes crippling economy hits. Use your population advantage to tear his heart out economically, You've seen the result of trying to attack him head on so many times, So keep raiding, even when taking losses... His economys going down, and you can view going mythic if thats your bag, or waiting till hes strayed too far, and bringing down the hurt with your Husky/TA/Rams. Raid, Raid, Raid... to end the game. [This message has been edited by Talon_373 (edited 04-12-2004 @ 12:23 PM).]
So what’s the target of your newfound advantage, You better know it, because you only have about 30 seconds until he’s producing units, and then things get harder, this is your window, So what’s your target?
Take out 2 if you can.. Ok, so 50 wood doesnt seem like a huge loss to them right? Wrong.. You've just murdered his build order, he's just lost a house early game, His build order likely is perfectly groomed to have only as much wood as he needs ( I know mine is ) which means he doesn’t have enough wood to build another immediately, or if he does, he forfeits building that barracks he was all ready to pop up after classical...
Your continually producing more ulfsarks, you have 12-15 by the time he likely constructs his first Barracks, and your crushing whatever you can outside the range of his TC's... If your Heimdall, you have a free tower take-down, which you should use immediately when you see a target of oppurtunity for raiding thats within range of an upgraded tower.
Continue producing Ulfsarks and maintain a larger force ( even if he has Toxotes coming out ) Put up a 3rd or 4th barracks so you can produce RC's or TA's to supplement and raid, an Einherjar should be made as soon as you have the favor, Consolidate your number advantage by towering a gold spot near him.
So Put the hill forts well behind your offensive towers, which will be his first targets of his catapults, and buy you time, you can use frost GP on his Cattys to buy you time to build a larger huskarl force as well, game over if you amass a good amount of them, greeks cant properly counter them...
If he's really towering up and attacking would be a losing situation, this is where you begin building your additional TC's... Only when he's gone defensive. Continue producing huskarls as your Pop limit rises, its only a matter of time...
Outmass him early, Contain him, and Stay mostly defensive until Heroic, keep your forces at your offensive towers, Raid his moves to new gold... A failed attack will cost you the game, So Raid, and retreat ( using your towers ) Use your momentum to go heroic, take greater map control with Hill Fort’s, and TC the map,
I hope this guide is helpful to existing Odin palyers, I struggled for a long time wondering how to overcome those Classical battles which always seemed uphill. I know I didnt cover water maps, Theyre a whole different ball-game, and honestly not mine :-) But if someone has more to add please do...
Talon_373
2 gold villies
1 Ox cart to gold
1 villy to wood.
First dwarf to gold
another villy to wood.
Second dwarf to gold.
Villies to gold, Build your temple ( 16 population, 2:40'ish clock )
Switch 1 villy from wood to your hunting party.
take all villys off gold, and move to wood, Once you've qued up your third dwarf ( which is the last unit produced before aging )
6 Hunters
3 Dwarves on gold
5 Villys on wood
If huntables are abundant, move a couple of your new villys instead to wood, to Lay down that forward tower early, between him and more gold. Flatten, or chase away anything outside his arrow range. If you build a second tower, build it within range of your first, and begin a semi-circle around his base, in whatever fashion best seperates him from valuable resources. ( or push toward his starting gold spot with the second tower )
If he has moved to another mine, It still gives him a pause in moving all his miners there, and you still should outnumber him significantly, So go smash it, Leave your einherjar to protect your towers, unless you feel they can protect themselves, Don't forget a small group of villys can wreck a lone tower in short order.
Can’t wait to see more Odin players on the battlefield.
His tower Upgrade? No... 95% of the time I wont research it, You don't ever want to stop producing Villagers in Classical, and by Heroic you have Hillforts. I Choose Heimdall for one main reason, Einherjar's cost GOLD, and Valkyrie's cost FOOD. Gold is the easiest resource to find and gather in Classical. Miners don't require Micromanagement like hunters, and have a faster rate of collection than Woodies, or Gatherer's, Not to mention that gold mine never moves, so collection time once again is even faster, since travel times are much shorter than other resources.
There's great perks to going Freyja though, and I'd suggest considering her if you feel you can give it the extra attention, and where food is abundant, Watering Hole comes to mind as one map I always think to use Freyja.
Ending a game would be three times harder, Every game without it. Walking woods are not a bad god power, but a smart player will march them across the map where theyll sit and talk with the squirrels for the rest of the game.
You should have been spending every penny pumping units and taking control in Heroic, If the games gone Mythic your probably just toying with your prey. Our benefits to going Mythic are nowhere near as deciding as our Heroic benefits, It's no huge leap in power, and so I suggest using your resources creating units and controlling your enemy in Heroic.
In summary, I choose Heimdall mostly because the Einherjar is friendly to my economy, and has great stopping power to defend my forward. My choice for Skadi is 90% my love for her God power, and how her benefits fit in with my economy, which you can read on a bit below.
If you've found you dont have the food to age by the time your 3rd dwarf comes out, make a 4th, and 5th, etc, until you have the food.
ONLY mining with dwarves
And Have 2 Ox carts for Each gold mine with 10+ miners
( you need the wood for now )
Town centers
& The Market
When you go heroic, re-task all villager's ( unless they're HUNTING ) to lumber or gold, about 50% lumber, 50% gold is what I go for ( remember, ALL dwarves should be mining )
Heroic is the age of Wood.
( take into consideration, those villagers could have been chopping wood this entire time ) and 2 minutes to get them gathering at a competitive rate.
In the classical age your Opponent always has the advantage that, he has multiple ways to run and try to establish more gold mines. He also has the power to turn his army on a dime to defend any side of his base or close expansion, while you must travel around, This means if you split your forces largely to try to attack away from your towers to prevent his expansion, He can Steam-roll your unprotected towers, and then your screwed. You cannot contain him completely in classical. Your classical military is inferior in open battle, so you can only effectvely control the area around your towers, and attempt to Raid other areas.
70% of the time, No. He has cease-fire to pause and produce appropriate counter units, or restoration to give him even MORE power, in the event he feels hes losing a battle.
You won't beat an expert Greek player if you don't raid.
