Quoted from WILHELM_II:

i intend to read this all... but since you made a mistake here... hippikons cost 3 pop slot.. not a pop wise test...

this is the reason why i did not read this all..

I'm soooo considering using Zeus more ^_^. Especially since I play AoM vanilla .

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Question: Who is dumb enough to use TAs without a good meatshield or put them behind something like a wall. That and the Norse have a nice Thor god path that can get you "uber ulfsarks" which I forget exact stats but have approximately 15 damage, better armor, but less health. So if you wanna try testing five hoplites fully upgraded with optimum god paths and the ulfsark with optimum godpath, it might help.
In general, good guide, and I plan on passing it on to my greek playing friend who can't play very well, maybe this will remedy it. I really enjoyed reading it though, and thanks for the info.

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Quoted from the guide:

eggy are supposed to have the weakest classical units, and some of the strongest heroic ones. your guide was very in-depth, but mabe try doing some tests vs heroic units (ie. a pop-equal hop vs ele fight compared to a resource equal one). that and change the rank yellow colour , just replace "yellow" with DAA520 to make it easier on the eyes

[This message has been edited by ipso (edited 04-24-2004 @ 09:14 AM).]

[This message has been edited by Grey_Aura (edited 04-24-2004 @ 09:43 AM).]

I'd suggest you do a test of hops vs hipps with a set amount of econ to spend on either unit (cost-effective test)

also you'll get inacurate results with low numbers. (IE TA also counter hops with sufficent numbers and meat shield). So do a test with 10 hops vs ? hips, where the question mark is the number of hips that 10 hops cost.

[This message has been edited by PrtN_lummir (edited 04-24-2004 @ 12:10 PM).]

The cost doesnt matter, its the pop that counts.
Becouse if you'd do everything on cost, then titan would be OP.

But when you do it popwise its fair, becouse the max pop is 300, and the max recources does not exist or is too high to get in a normal game.. and btw, hops are not just strong units that can beat anything, they need numbers, so you need good econ. Good exon means constant recources. The only way for people with hips to counter hops is to have a good economy too. You shouldn't judge on economy wise things (i.e. cost), becouse if we do that, we can just as well say that an 1800 PLayer Hop is massively OP, while the Hop of a 1500 Player is massively UP.

Its pop that counts (obviously you do not read guides, the MUST for a guide to units is to have popwise in it at least once.) also, lemme give you an example

Imagine :
UNIT X takes 2 Pop, costs 100 food, 100 Gold

UNIT Y takes 1 Pop costs 125 Food 100 Gold.

If we do popwise, (2 Y's vs 1 X) it means that both have the same pop slowts taken up, an means i't should be even in some way. If you calculate cost in turn... it would be about 0.75 pop vs 2 pop, which would mean that Y is outnumber a bit more than 2 times, which would mean the test was unfair..

Look in my guide : 5 hops vs 5 hips, to look how well hops do vs hips, and 6 hops vs 4 hips, to see how they do in comparison to pop, and they nearly EVEN the hips. Which should mean they are about as strong per pop. (6 hops have a certain battle value in amount of pop (12) and 4 hippikon (12 pop) have nearly the exact same battle value. Which means there is balance between the two)

I hope you understand it, if you do not, you better start diguring out how AoM balancing works, at least not on recources (im talking of battle, not the ABILITY to make units)

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Im sorry, but i meant to say that if you go with the recource part, you get wrong calculations. Becouse I once stated, that if you do recource tests, then titans would be too cheap... Becouse 3 Sphinxes cost 3X 120F 3X 20 Fav = 360 F and 60 favor. Their food amount is almost near half of Titan food cost and favor more than a titans favor. While a Titan can beat a LOT more than 3 Sphinxes. I made a cost calculation, with ALL possible typed of units, fron all civs. And in all different tests, i ended aroung 2500 Food, 1000 Wood and 6000 Gold and 120 favor(Including upgrades). If you'd take this into account... the titan would cost this amount, which is nearly impossible to get in a regular game unless u got about 120+ villies.

My post was not meant to crack you off, just to tell you that a recource could work right, but recource tests are bendable (when i do the test with Poseidon as enemy cavalry, or with Zeus as enemy cavalry, there is quite a difference) where pop is a fexed rate.

and ipso, I am now a fond Ra player for some time and I am ashamed if I do not at least have all houses, a forwars base with TC and all my pop filled up for units... I have been Zeus and it has been the same case : You need pop limit reached, or else space is wasted, you need to attack with FULL force... or did you mean 300 pop limit by Classical? Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Any further tips would come in handy

btw PrtN, if you are so sure that Hoplites counter cavalry, go and test for yourself, I've done numerous of tests, and all of them were negative, as I stated here, and I'm 99% sure that Hoplites do not counter cavalry, becouse :
Battle shows so
Stats show so
I just showed you

[This message has been edited by WILHELM_II (edited 04-30-2004 @ 04:24 AM).]

1. resource-wise is based on players of equal skill, so yes it matters

2. the point of doing a res. wise test is to compare it to a pop-wise test. using your logic, you shouldnt need to do a pop-wise test because no one should reach pop limit in classic, which is what your guide centers on.

3. you made the yellow bit purple. j/k

all you need to do is think more carefully. when you put all the time into the guide it came out fine, but listen to other peoples suggestions, or give a well thought answer if you choose to ignore it. theyre not saying it to annoy you.

WILHELM_II
it was a great guide
i thought it was gunna be a
(love that smily)
i loved this guide it was the coolest guide ever

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can you plz explain i'm no good at maths

[This message has been edited by Sorceror_Erebus (edited 04-24-2004 @ 06:24 PM).]

Thanks for all the positive comments

[This message has been edited by WILHELM_II (edited 04-25-2004 @ 05:04 AM).]

I had 10 hippikons = 10x3=30 pop. Devide the pop through 2 = 15 hoplites. 15 hoplites vs. 10 hippikons= massacre. I didn't micro anything, the hops won with 13 units left, with only 2 units badly wounded, 5 units half HP and the rest full to almost full HP. Thus, Hoplites do beat Hippikons pop effective.

Doing a 1 vs 1 (what isn't recommended), shows the hippikon beat the hoplite with 21 HP left out of 150.

NOTE: These tests were without any upgrades.

The cost is a lot harder. The best would be to calculate it by villager seconds, but I'm too lazy to do that. Looking purely at the cost: Hoplites cost 50 food and 40 gold. Hippikons cost 70 food and 40 gold. Devide Hoplite by 2 and Hippikon by 3, you get 25 food and 20 gold per pop slot for Hoplite, and 23,3 food and 13,3 gold per pop. This shows that Hippikons are cheaper per pop slot, but are they better? If you do the food cost and gold cost of hoplites times 10, you'd get 500+400 food and gold. Devide 500 through 70, and you'll get something like 7,14 for food and 10 for gold (they have the same gold cost). If you take the avarage 7+10:2=8,5=9, that'll be the next test.

I did the test trice to check if it was true what I saw. 10 hoplites defeated 9 hippikons. 2x I had 6 hoplites left, and 1 time I had 7 hoplites left, with almost the half badly wounded. Does this mean hoplites beat Hippikons pop and cost effective? I'd say yes.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

PS. I have taken screenies, I can upload them if you want

PPS. I think I will also write a guide as well to some unit, and then I'll show you more then dull tests like 1 ulfsark vs. 1 hoplite.

PPPS. Also, forget mentioning the Titan. It's a wrong unit to compare. A Titan kills any unit pop and cost effective.

[This message has been edited by FlY1nG_DuTchMaN (edited 04-25-2004 @ 05:24 AM).]

20 Hips vs 30 Hoplites
Micro with hips : hips dead, about 14 hoplites survived with an average of 65 health
Non-Micro with hips : hips died, 23 hoplites survived with an average of 80 health each
Micro with Hoplites : Hips died, an amazing 27 Hops survived and they all had very low damage
Non-Micro with hoplites : Hips died 17 hops survived with an average of 50 health each
Micro with hips and micro with hops : Hips died... 16 hops survived with an average of 90 health left each

20 Hips vs 30 spears
Micro with hips : Hips barely win, only 2 left (in the 2nd test 4 left, and in the 3rd test 3 left) and very low health
Non-Micro with hips : hips got slaughtered, 4 spears left with average health (this is amazing, when you think that spears have 40% hack defense, hips 10 attack and spears only have 70 health, this clearly indicates that spears have more attack bonus vs Hips than hops, the hoplites did survive with lots more, but then again, they got 45 more health than spears..)
Micro with spears : hips died completely, 21 spears left (in comparison, they did much better than hops, becouse they also had low damage, lets just think they werent damaged : 21 times 70 = 1470 total. When you compare to hoplitss : 27 times 115 =3105. What this says, that units that in total have HALF the health of a hoplite total, perform nearly just as good vs cavalry)
Non-Micro with spears : Spears die, 5 hips left with pretty high health
Micro with Spears, Micro with Hips : Hips die to the spears, 7 survived with near full health.

15 Spears + 15 Hoplites vs 20 Hippikon
Hipp Micro : Hips die, 2 spears, 3 hops survived
Non-micro hipp : hips die, with 12 spears left, 14 hops
Micro Inf : hips die, 13 spears left, no hops dead
Non-micro inf : Hips die 4 spears 4 hops left
Both micro : hips die, 10 spears, 12 hops let.

20 spears + 10 hoplites vs 20 hippikon
Hipp micro : hips die, 3 spears, 0 hops left
Non-micro hipp : hips die, 6 spears left, 3 hops
Micro inf : hipps die, 16 spears left 6 hoplites
Non-micro inf : hips die 3 spears, 2 hops left
Both micor : hips die, 1 spear left 8 hops (this appears in all tests, this is kinda weird, i tried this a couple of times, but theres always this outcome, or near this)

There you go, I have also done these tests on a 6 vs 4 basis after i got noticed on the pop things. Oh and btw, lemme give you a link, i just found something
http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/tables/units/greek
Do you see in the "OTHERS" part next to the hops, that they have a bonus vs cav? NO!

Go and tell AoMH they're wrong if you want, here's the mail : info@heavengames.com

Tell them they're wrong, I hope you get banned, you are starting to irritate me and others, first you flame Darth Persias guide, then some others, quit it.

And btw, writing a guide doesnt take just a day. Try making some uber-hoplites vs uber-ulfsark trigger Tech Stats, and see how many times you pull your hair out becouse you did one of the techs wrong. Also, you said the tests were dull, maybe you find them dull, but if I see one test, I can pick hundreds of conclusions. For example let me give you this (WARNING : THIS IS FICTIONAL) :
Let's say that we do a 5v5 Throwing axemen v Axemen.
Well, first we let them stand next to eachother before fight, the Throwing axemen get killed and the axemen survive with 15 health. The next thing we do, is make the axemen walk. Now the axemen get killed and the Ta's survive, with 4 health. Pick a conclusion :

1 : Norse should have a meatshield in general for TA, becouse there is difference.
2 : Norse should watch that they have a better meatshield vs eggy than other civs becouse their TA's get slaughtered.
3 : Norse should use raiding cav as a meatshield vs eggy becouse their units are too fast.

If you pick the right conclusion, I will completely renew my guide, if you get it wrong, then you're just dumb.

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another thing : if you go 15 hoplites vs 10 hippikon, at least moe than 4 hops should die. Hippikon do more attack, and Hoplites clearly do not counter cavalry for 'dam's sake. I did multiple tests vs Jarls, RC, Prods, Hips, Elephants, Camels, Contarius and they all show negative, AoMH says hops do not have counter. It is impossible that only 2 hops died. and in my pop-wise test of 6 hips vs 4 hops they have 12 health left as an average (there were hops with 80+ health, and those with about 5)

You forgot to make a Possy pop-recource comparison. I also did a Possy test with that, and it completely undermines your "statement"

And i did not compare completely to a titan, i made a recource-based calculation, that has nothing to do with a comparison in full force. It was to show its value. Please learn what a good and a bad guide is, becouse your arguments suck.

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... They cost 40 food and 80 gold, 36 food and 72 gold if you're Poseidon. Kindly do your research next time.

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CHEERS!

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This is funny, because I compared the hoplite with a hippikon, both Greek Units, both Classical Age units, and therefore, they don't need upgrades and stuff to give a correct test.

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Where did I ever say that Hoplites have a multiplier vs. Cavalry? Never. So I don't know why you did all that unneccesary work by putting up a link and an email adress.

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Seems it was you who started the flaming hm? The text was edited out before I saw it, but luckily I know some moderators who are able to bring it back.

You also say I flamed that guide. True, I said it was a crap guide and stuff, but if you read further, I gave about 2 pages of detailled suggestions.

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No, I didn't forget. My math is wrong anyway, I'll edit it out, but I didn't forget about it. Did it ever come to your mind that I wasn't planning on doing a guide? I was just undermining a statement you made. I'm not going to do any more test on this, just because of you.

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Well, I think it must be you who has to learn what a good guide is and what a bad guide is. DP's guide was bad, confirmed by many people. You say it was good.

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So this means that if I make a mistake, I'm dumb, but if You make a mistake, then it's just a mistake, nothing wrong? LOL

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You know what? Create a topic in Website discussions to ask for my ban. If they do, lucky you. If they don't you're dumb

And you think I'm the one who is irritating? Ok, your opinion. But since when am I irritating others? It's true I flamed DP's guide, but with a reason, and after that I gave suggestions. I don't visit any other guides except that guide, and one more time a guide of AC where I told him that I don't really like guides and why, but nowhere near a flame. Some others also mean that it's more then one. It wasn't.

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DP did them in less then an hour...

I know what it takes to write a guide. You don't have to tell me.

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And yet again, you're twisting facts. I never said tests are dull, I said 1 vs 1 tests are dull. And I don't think you can pick hundreds of conclusions of just that test.

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AFAIK, Possy cavalry has the same pop as normal Greek cavalry, and a 10% bonus on the cost. Yes, it did undermine my statement, because my numbers were wrong. I can tell from that bonus that Possy cavalry are more cost effective then other Greek cavalry, no need for test. If you want to know how much cost effective better, then you can also tell that from numbers: 10% better.

Ok, I should go back to my homework. Have a nice day all.

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actually you're saying that hoplites are the counter. Any unit that beats another unit pop-effective can be called a counter, just becouse you can counter it. But real hard-counters (axemen, hyphasist) have bonus attack. And they bend the pop-wise strength.

you have gone totally off-topic, you still harass me be putting something i never said in this topic, you said you werent gonna be banned? take a look at the banned user leonard_shelby. He got banned for what you are donig now. And if you compare pop-recource wise with possy, i never said the pop was different. By a few calculations, you can see that Possy cav do more per pop slot, as they are cheaper. But this does not state they save pop slots, they just perform better in pop/reource ratio.

Don't tell me i know nothing about guides. You want some guides? i can give you. I have on my harddics 52 AoE guides. Going from the villagers, to the priest, to the helepolis. I got a further 87 guides of AoK (imo still the best age game). With the best being a similar guide like this about the line of militia to champion.

I have never seen any guide of you, you only know how to flame, not how to make.

Please get a life.

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[This message has been edited by WILHELM_II (edited 04-25-2004 @ 08:00 AM).]

If you make a sub-standard guide, don't get mad at the people for your faults. If you can't handle the pressure, quit.

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And yes, you will get banned if you repeat that.

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Just because I said Hoplites beat Hippikons doesn't make me say they're hard counters. You're putting the words in my mouth again.

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I'd actually say I'm semi-off topic, because I'm also still discussing the topic.

You are right, you did never say those swearwords in this topic, fact is that I want that other thread down so I continue in this topic about it.

Nope, I won't get banned for what I'm saying here, or have said to you.

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I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but if there's someone who's gonna get banned, it must be you.

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Talk about putting words in my mouth... I have never said you knew nothing about guides. I did say my opinion. That can mean two things: Either I am wrong, or you are wrong. It's not to one of us to decide that.

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I have made one guide. It wasn't a good guide either, because it was semi-complete. Wanna have the url? Search here for: Guide to the Titan or something.

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Sorry, already have one.

Cya all, no hard feelings

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For posting a guide?

Look, my point is, the first post you made on this guide was to tell that hops beat hipps in pop-recource relationship, they do. BUT barely. And what you said, i have proved is wrong. I posted about it, made examples, comments, and then u start flaming me.

and i was just gonna say what shiva said :
that text i wrote in darth's guide was removed so that it wouldnt be read, and now you bring it back.

And I am gonna stop this right now, I'm not gonna react to you again unless you put a good and honest discussion up, i do not want a damn flamewar, i want this to be about all the guide, becouse in my guide i have proven that there are several things around the hoplites that are not right :

they DO beat hipps in pop-spot, but mostly they lose, or they barely win. It is also proven, that however it is said in the game that they counter cav, several tests show they are not the effective counter, neither have they got an attack bonus.

A Bacchanalia Hop beats an Ulfsark (well it gets beaten by the ulfsark, but the ulfsark will have about 1, 2, or 3 HP left, which i call even, or beat) while the stats show that even with bacchanalia, this is not possible.

It is shown that they beat one of their hard counters (TA is a hard anti-inf counter) which should be impossible, becouse heck, thats what conuters are made for.

I have shown an add-up of reasons that hoplite are as zeus the best building-killer human unit it the whole game, even compared to the destroyer.

I will retract all the things OT in my posts as of now, and you post what you want FD, but i do NOT want a flamewar.

BTW, i will soon release a list of "bugs" on unit relationships. They are not real bugs that should be added the the bug list, but they are faults in the counter-system. I will also add some new tests concerning Hoplite-CA relationships.

[This message has been edited by WILHELM_II (edited 04-25-2004 @ 10:16 AM).]