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Topic Subject: Ulfsarks, the best norse unit
posted 29 April 2004 04:58 PM EDT (US)   
Ok the whole basis of norse is to hit them early before they have an army and defeat them before they really have a chance. If a norse player does not do that then chances are he will lose. Im not saying thats its impossible to win a long game as norse im just saying that odds arent in your favor.

Ok well raiding cavalry and throwing axemen take too long to make in an early stage where you need guys fast as norse. They are made at the same speed as greek units but are less powerful. This means that a greek player can have the same amount of units but have each individual units be much better. For instance in the same basic timeframe a greek player could have 10 hippikons and the norse player would only have 10 rc. Rc is inferior 1v1 with hipps so you will lose.

This is why i think that ulfsarks are the best norse unit. They build in 9 seconds. Greeks cant outmass them early on and eggy can only have the same amount of units but their units are inferior to norse ones. Basically in the same amount of time you could build 2 ulfs and 1 rc. There is nothing that 1 rc can do better than 2 ulfs. Of course 2 ulfs take up more pop and cost more. However early on in the game when a norse player should secure the win pop wont make much of a difference since you wont have hit pop limit yet. Cost wont make too much of a difference either because there are many builds that allow for constant ulf production out of 3 longhouses. Now that we've established that lets go over the pros and cons of the unit and see if that is why they arent used much

Pros
Built fast
High attack
Good speed for an infantry unit
Good LOS means you can find their villies better]
With massed ulfs you can build buildings fast

Cons
Low hp
Low pierce armor
Infantry have a lot of hard counters

This seems to show that they are a decent unit. They have a good cost in that they dont cost an exorbitant amount of any resource. Ok i will show how to avoid having their weaknesses come out

Low hp: Basically try to get healing as soon as possible (odin regen, valks, or healing spring)
Low pierce armor: Basically against towers just take them down as early as possible because unless they are eggy you can get them down before they actually become towers. Against eggy stay out of their way if they have houses around them otherwise kill them. However another tactic is to take down one house and tell a few of your ulfs to take down the tower. Chances are they wont have boiling oil so you will do fine. Against ranged units like toxotes just upgrade your pierce armor and take out the buildings they are made from before enough of them can be made. This is easily done since they are made so fast and norse can advance quickly
A lot of hard counters: Much like ranged units try to take the buildings out before they get in mass. However its also a good idea to just attack them while you outnumber them since 10 ulfs will still beat 4 axemen. If they start massing hard counters just make rc and spam towers. Bye bye hard counters.

Basically ulfsarks can be massed early and allow you to overwhelm him before he can react. This is what norse is all about and fits perfectly into their style. Every norse civ is good for ulfs here are their strats.

Loki: Build a FB as usual and as usual get some hersir. Then use your 10% faster longhouses to pump out ulfsarks even faster than usual. Basically a loki rush with ulfs. The loki rush is about getting a large amount of units destroying their base early so ulfs are the best for it. Later on in the game go bragi to get uber ulfs.

Odin: Get lone wanderer to have uber raiding ulfs. Lone wanderer ulfs dont get hit much by towers and are fast enough to get away from any of their counters. Just surprise him by raiding him with 8 ulfsarks by 5:30. Then jsut keep the raiding up and speed build towers at all the gold. They are better raiders than rc for a few reasons. One is that they dont get hurt by crenellations. The other is that they have a huge LOS allowing them to actually find enemy gathering sites very quickly. Just act like you are massing rc for raiding except make ulfs instead. They are built fast and you can raid them well. Also use you ulfs buidling killign skills to take down military buidlings.

Thor: Get to classical at 4:30 using a lot of dwarves to get there that early. Pump ulfs out and just ravage buildings, do the occasional raid and tower gold. Get an armory and upgrade pierce armor a lot if against greek and attie, hack armor a lot if against norse, and upgrade hack armor a lot when against eggy but also get a pierce armor upgrade or two to combat the tower fire. This should make you hard to kill except by hard counters. Make sure that you engage any army they may have to stop them from massing an army. Just take down loads of buildings and mob their army while stopping their gold income with towers.

Ulfs are amazing. Its fully possible to have 15 of them by 6 minutes. Most other civs will not have even 10 units to fight you. Use that to your advantage to beat their army (which wont be amde of counter units since no one expects ulfs) and ravage their town. Patrol their base with 2 ulfs to find any new building areas for military buildings. Stop their attempts at making an army before they occur. This is what norse should do and in my opinion the ulfsark is the only unit that can achive this goal.


For Thor and Loki they are also great in the late game. You can get uber bragi ulfs that are made in 5 seconds. This means that there is no way your enemy will reinforce his army more than you will.

Replies:
posted 29 April 2004 10:36 PM EDT (US)     1 / 25  
As a total n00b at the game, build orders would be nice .

ANd Ulf 'building killing skills'? They don't seem that great vs buildings to me =/. Is this a Titans thing?

posted 30 April 2004 08:24 AM EDT (US)     2 / 25  
gj and nice tips
but i have one question
in several different stats sites it says they have X2 or X3 damage against outposts, could you explain that because i am having a problem finding what building is called an outpost. thx in advance
posted 30 April 2004 08:34 AM EDT (US)     3 / 25  
Ulfs get x3 vs Obelisks (obelisks are the egyptian scouting 'building')

This is a good strategy that has been mentioned previously, however you have to be very careful as a decent greek/ egyptian player will soon be dominating you if you run too far into his base.

Once he has 5 tox or even 8 axemen, you will start to worry, you'd be crazy to run into TC fire. And that is most likely where most of his vital buildings are (if they have repelled you 'rush' that is). So really all you are doing is floating around his base trying to keep him in. The problem is you would have to miraculously keep up in econ since your early advance would have put you at a disadvantage there.

Executed correctly, this strat can work, although i don't think it would be wise to try it against eggy or Hades. VS norse or atty it could be good, especially with einherjars.

posted 30 April 2004 09:07 AM EDT (US)     4 / 25  

Quote:

ANd Ulf 'building killing skills'? They don't seem that great vs buildings to me =/. Is this a Titans thing?

i think they are the best classic unit at killing buildings or something

[This message has been edited by ipso (edited 04-30-2004 @ 09:11 AM).]

posted 30 April 2004 10:58 AM EDT (US)     5 / 25  

Quote:

Once he has 5 tox or even 8 axemen, you will start to worry

It'd take 20+ Tox to take out 15 Ulfsarks without a Meatshield. Infantry are the Hardest Unit to counter because they are quite fast (comapred to AOE) and will kill the Archers easily without a meatshield.

In my Chariots vs Toxote comparison, I found that 15 FU Hades-Ares-Apollo-Artemis Toxotes lost to 15 FU Hoplites, with 6+ Hoplites remaining.

posted 30 April 2004 01:10 PM EDT (US)     6 / 25  

Quote:

i think they are the best classic unit at killing buildings or something

While I haven't tested it out personally, I'm pretty sure Spearmen kill buildings more easily than Ulfs in classical =/.

posted 30 April 2004 01:19 PM EDT (US)     7 / 25  
I think that the unit with the most hack attack will do the most damage against buildings. And crush damage isn't available in classic.
posted 30 April 2004 02:11 PM EDT (US)     8 / 25  

Quote:

It'd take 20+ Tox to take out 15 Ulfsarks without a Meatshield. Infantry are the Hardest Unit to counter because they are quite fast (comapred to AOE) and will kill the Archers easily without a meatshield.

In my Chariots vs Toxote comparison, I found that 15 FU Hades-Ares-Apollo-Artemis Toxotes lost to 15 FU Hoplites, with 6+ Hoplites remaining.

This is kind of noobish. In a rush, a good player will never let 20 tox in open field against a gruop of ulfsarks. A chokepoint with 20 tox would beat 15 ulfarks in no time with almost no loss. On top of that, a Hoplite is a "heavy" infantry with decent pierce armor, which need to be countred with hard counters (hyps, axes).


Rating - ~1700

[VnX_Lime]-[Lime_the_Great]

[This message has been edited by Lime the Great (edited 04-30-2004 @ 02:13 PM).]

posted 30 April 2004 04:47 PM EDT (US)     9 / 25  
yes they can just make their buildings in tc range and have their ranged units in tc range but if that happens its a good thing since youve contained them enough to be able to take complete map control.
posted 30 April 2004 04:55 PM EDT (US)     10 / 25  
ulfs are good, but not without a lot of upgrades

if u go thor, and take the uber ulf route, they can be GREAT, but dont use them no matter what - ie. vs a hades/greek archer spammer... use them vs. a guy when he's making either inf. or cav., and go ulf RC, or ulf husk.. use the RC or husks to flank the archers, while the ulfs demolish the archers meatsheild.. then pwn buildings


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posted 30 April 2004 05:29 PM EDT (US)     11 / 25  
I've been experimenting with a Ulf rush as Odin and advancing through Heimdall (gotta love that MU). One problem I eventually run into is that since the Ulfs train so fast I start filling up too many pop slots with Ulfs and not enough villies. Pumping 3 (or even 2) barracks with Ulfs while only 1 TC with Villies is a little unbalanced. Maybe I'm a little too inexperienced to get the balance right, but it's one heck of a fun game massing Ulfs. It generally doesn't take too many to take out a TC with a couple of Einheriar, and a pierce upgrade.
posted 30 April 2004 05:33 PM EDT (US)     12 / 25  

Quote:

While I haven't tested it out personally, I'm pretty sure Spearmen kill buildings more easily than Ulfs in classical =/.

na, i read somewhere a while back that it takes spearmen something like 30 seconds longet to kill a house (i unit vs a greek hpuse)

posted 30 April 2004 07:34 PM EDT (US)     13 / 25  

Quote:

It'd take 20+ Tox to take out 15 Ulfsarks without a Meatshield

LOL, do you have any idea how quickly ULfs die to tox + TC fire + tower fire?. Like Lime the great said, a defender will never fight his archers in the open. And they are basic ulfs, not mighty greek warriors.

posted 01 May 2004 05:35 AM EDT (US)     14 / 25  
Yup- I just checked, Ulfs ARE better buildings killers than spearmen in classical o_0. I'm going to assume that this holds true for the later ages as well...still, spearmen have better armour, maybe making them better building killers in the later ages as well....even with Axe of Vengeance, I still find my Axemen mediocre against buildings and they die so quickly .

I've gotta use Ulfs more . Although they'll die to spearmen...you need to abuse superior numbers early in the game for this strat to work and even then, as mentioned before, free eggie towers doesn't make it so easy =/.

posted 01 May 2004 06:04 AM EDT (US)     15 / 25  
Ulfs are prolly the worst mainline infantry in the game at first.. and maybe the best when FU with Thor/Odin. They will die to axemen/mass slingers/cheiros/murms/tox/hops/thrax in classical, so don´t say they´re good.

You won´t get past 1650 if you insist on making them in classical.

posted 02 May 2004 08:57 AM EDT (US)     16 / 25  
Well, I once read a strategy guide(forgot the writer) that use towers to contain enemy early on, it seem to work everytime I use it unless I got a late classical time. You just basically surround your enemy with towers using the quickly made ulf, and use RC to raid.
posted 02 May 2004 12:30 PM EDT (US)     17 / 25  
Ulfs attack pretty quickly, and they do a frikkin load of dmg. So yea they are the best building killer. However, they have really really weak pierce armor, so you should try to rush em on an enemy.

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posted 02 May 2004 12:52 PM EDT (US)     18 / 25  
BIGSNIZIT has I think cut off his gold and eventually his food and maybe his wood by towering round him with all those ulfs biulding quite fast, and go Thor for uber cheap armor upgrades, and then when u upgrade them enough they become uncounterable b/c of the armor upgrades

Strategist, Age fan, owner of AoM beta, and future game devolper.
posted 02 May 2004 04:16 PM EDT (US)     19 / 25  
GRUNT, are you sure Ulfs die to spearmen? That really doesn't sound right. Axemen should be the Eqyptian counter to Ulfs.
posted 02 May 2004 05:37 PM EDT (US)     20 / 25  
Ulfs shouldn´t die popwise but certainly reswise. You shouldn´t build ulf vs eggies in classical either way though, rcs are much better.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 05-02-2004 @ 05:37 PM).]

posted 03 May 2004 05:28 PM EDT (US)     21 / 25  

Quote:

i think they are the best classic unit at killing buildings or something

Helloooo?? Are either of you guys awake.
How about Zeus hoplites?

And I assume you meant human units right? Since myth is the classical siege...

posted 04 May 2004 05:44 AM EDT (US)     22 / 25  
Added to the list.

Theris264
former Age of Mythology Heaven and Age of Empires III Heaven forumer||former member of Ambition Designs
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" -Gandhi
posted 04 May 2004 06:36 AM EDT (US)     23 / 25  
Yes ulfs kill buildings well - if they are miles away from tcs or towers, and the enemy has all his military and vills idle. Zeus hoplites are the real classical siege, along with hippikons (good pierce armor and attack) and some myth units. If a building is undefended slingers can take it out.

In classical, build 1-2 extra ulfs from the tc to get builders fast and better scouting. But whatever you do don´t pick a fight with them..

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 05-04-2004 @ 06:37 AM).]

posted 04 May 2004 04:05 PM EDT (US)     24 / 25  
well yeah if an equal army and towers are killing my ulfs then they wont take down many buildings but the whole point is that they are made fast so he WONT have an equal army, and you can have them very early and take down towers before they can harm you (as eggy that may be hard but they wont usually get boiling oil early on so unless there are houses around the towers (which they cant do for every single tower since there are only 10 houses) you can kill them.
posted 04 May 2004 04:53 PM EDT (US)     25 / 25  

Quoted from Johnny_Deppig:

You won´t get past 1650 if you insist on making them in classical.

It all depends on how you use them. ONLY building them, your screwed against anybody. Using that Ulf rush/tower strat guide for odin that Talon had posted, you can get pretty far. It all depends on who you use it against then, basically, never use it versus eggies or zeus. You can use it versus hades, as he won't have his towers right away, and his sentinals don't really give him that much more defense of a containing ulfsark force.

The key thing there is containing. Your not heading into battle against the other's military with them. Your containing with towers and buildings and raiding anything vulnarable. They are a quick speedy unit, that is eventually replaced by RC in classical and heroic units later on.
You need to use the ulfsark early, because with the fast train time, you can be raiding around the tc before they get barracks up or units out. Later on, the ulfsark is only good with alot of armory upgrades, and as long as your econ is gaining resources much faster than your opponet, as you can eggy style overrun and flood them then.

I got pretty far with odin(~1730) as long as I adjusted to my opponet and map every game. I basically used some form of Talon's initial guidlines 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time I didn't even go heimdall.


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[This message has been edited by Etendorf (edited 05-04-2004 @ 04:54 PM).]

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