I just have a comment bout the Titan thing...

Most good Eggy players won't let their opponent get a Titan, from what I hear at least.

Just meteor/tornado the Titan Gate if it does get to that point

yes in 1 vs 1.

But there are other plenty types of games besides that.

For example i only play 3 players FFA, in that kind of game the last thing you want to do is to engage into a massive war against one player, leaving you base supervulnerable.

You may think both players ally against the titan user, but they dont, since both players dont believe in a lasting alliance and will take advantage of the fact that if they retreat the titaneer will engage the most dangerous threat
and will wear his titan in that war.

3 player FFA with balanced players can last for hours in supremacy, and could never end in conquest.

in 3vs3 the sandwiched player can safely rush to Titan.

I would day Egyptians have the esiest way to stop titans.

;\ slingers vs any army and a titan = a bloody mess of slings and bones as ur enemy flanks ur stupid slingers with 15 horses or brings up a line of peltists 2 help out his titan

Priests vs titan and army = a hell of alot of gold down the drain

But Wait there is a chance if u dont mass out 1 form of unit ;\ esspecily weak ranged units u may stand a chance. If u feel slingers r effective keep em in the back ground whilst they try and hit the titan in the eye then bring ur camels and other back up to skirmish with there army,

then again u could alwayz make a "No titans game" shouldnt b that hard if u only play with friends and if ur not playing with friends threaten 2 whinge and resign and going arround shouting boo at them :O

This was a really interesting read! AS I play Set, I mass Slingers anyway, so now I know not to spam priests!! Thanks man

I agree with the "no-titans" option.

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What do you know about that?

Anyway,
Eggys has Eclipse. This can help you in two ways.

1. It stops your opponent from laying down their titan gate for 2 min.

2. It boosts your titan.

Eggys has Meteor, Tornado and SOO. SOO will do heavy damage to the titan. Set can Vision+Meteor the gate. Eggys can make a meatwall with elephants. 13-14 of them has more HP than a Titan.

What the hell are you complaining about?

I think Atties is the hardest civ to use when it comes to fight a titan.

Priests are far superior to other heroes at taking down titans. Think about it. You can only have a certain number of hersirs attacking a titans at once. If you even have one non hersir in there the titan will be able to do its special which will hurt the hersirs. As eggy you just need a meatshield that can block the titan and fight the army while your massed priests take down the titan. Also priests attack as fast as slings anyways and are 100% accurate.

Sure priests cost a lot of gold but if you go nephthys you can make them cost only 75 gold making them cheap especially since eggy goes heavy on gold anyways. With the other nephthys tech priests will have a 12x multiplier vs titans allowing them to do 3.6 damage to a titan per second. Combined with an SoO who does somewhere between 30 and 40 damage to the titan and a pharoah who will do 12-16 damage to the titan you have a real titan killing army. With say 20 priests an SoO and a pharoah youll be doing about 121 damage per second to the titan. With that youll take him down in less than a minute.

This post ISN'T about how well each civ does against Titans. It's about sharing the discovery that SLINGERS do more damage to a titan than Priests.

What would you rather mass? Slingers which cost 24 Gold or priests which cost 75 (with the Nepth tech)? Slingers are MUCH more effective than priests as they're actually useful throughout the whole game, and the Nepth techs just ain't comparable to Ptah and Sekhmets Uber Sling upgrades.

Anyway, why should every Isis/Set player go Nepthyses just to kill a possible titan?! No other civ has to be forced into a minor god choice as much as Eggy. And DON'T tell me that Kronos and Oranos are FORCED into prometheous...

[This message has been edited by Sp3ctre (edited 05-31-2004 @ 01:23 PM).]

Well, they are

As for hardest civ to kill a titan; I wouldve said greeks, since they can only have a few heros at a time, plus they dont have a powerful human unit to absorb damage like elephants. Their only option is to tank it with cyclops/collosus/minotaurs, which drain favour, pop, and resources quickly. Norse and Eggies stand best against titans, and atties can do it if they have alot of excess resources to get continarius heros and arcus heros.

Also note: massed catapults also helps eggies against titans.

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Yeah but my point is that slingers suck vs titans whereas priests dont. Preists do 3.6 damage a second to a titan. SLingers do one or two. You forget that slingers also cost 60 wood which combined with the gold makes them mose expensive. Also priests are bettter than slings vs normal units except that they cant kill archers as well. Eggy players arent forced into nephthys becuase of the priests. They are forced into nephthys because of ancestors. Personally id like to see you use slings to kill a titan becuase its not gonna happen. 15 slings would do like 15-20 damage per second to a titan (im not sure about how fast they attack). Anways 15 priests would do 54 damage per second to a titan. 15 priests cost 1125 resources if you get the tech and 15 slings cost 1260 resources. You are paying less for a unit that does like 3 times as well ve a titan.

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No, but

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I think that when facing a Titan, getting rid of it quickly is what matters most. And you can get rid of it much faster with 30 priests than 30 slingers. You'll be at your pop limit (hopefully), so you have to choose the best units popwise, not cost-wise. Otherwise the Titan can do a lot of damage before dying.

Also, I think the "Trojan wall effect" is due to the fact that villagers have an attack bonus vs walls and towers, although I haven't tested this.

they do its it help Vs norse and kronus, so vills can take out tower spamming and timeshifting buildings if they apear to close

Thats why the Vill rush works so well

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I'm guessing you are using NEPTH priests. If you are, then all your points are wrong. I'm refering to Non-Nepth priests because I believe Rodrigo is too.

Unupgraded Priests cost MORE than Slingers
100 Gold Vs 60 Wood and 24 Gold
Seeing as Gold is precious to Eggy, the Slinger is a better valued unit.

Slingers are good against Archers. Priests are good against MUs
What do you generally get more of? Archers or MUs? All civs, except the Norse, will have more archers than MUs. This means that if you had to choose Slings or Priests, Slings would be more useful.

If you're gonna upgrade the Priests, Upgrade the Slings!
If you want to compare upgraded units, compare Nepth Priests with Sekhmet Slings (The alternative). You said...

"Also priests are bettter than slings vs normal units except that they cant kill archers as well"

LOL!! Priests Suck! Priests suck vs EVERYTHING!!! Sekhmet Slings can beat Archers AND Infantry (Don't forget Slings of the Sun). I'd try to see you play a game with Slings or Priests (one or the other) and see how long you last with Priests. Priests die to Infantry, Cavalry and Archers. Slings die to Cavalry and some high pierce infantry.

You may think this isn't relative to Titans, but it shows that Slings can actually have a chance of beating the supporting army, unlike priests.

Ancestors sucks
Seriously, Uneclipsed Ancestors is piss poor. Only Isis would choose Nepth just for Ancestors. Ra can't choose Nepth, and Set could have FU Slings, FU Archers and +10 Pop instead. Seeing as this is a general topic about EGGY, not Isis, then it would be best to compare Non-Nepth Priests and Unupgraded Slings.

Cost Comparison
Comparing in a FAIR unupgraded test...
15 Priests = 1500 Resources
15 Slings = 1260 Resources (According to your statement above)

Priests cost 1500 GOLD, think of the extra Barracks' pumping Slings you could get for that...

End of Post
I don't wanna start a flame war. I like your Set posts that you recently created! But your comparison is unfair and some of your statements I find stupidly wrong.

[This message has been edited by Sp3ctre (edited 05-31-2004 @ 05:55 PM).]

Mind that the priests could still be useful later on for their healing...

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No. Greeks have the EASIEST time vs titans, prolly. Their 4 heroes dish out enormous damage while taking a lot to bring down (esp since you wont have a unit with bonus vs them), and once theyre dead you can recreate them fast as hell and just have them go at the titan again. They have some MUs to go vs the titan as well, and dont forget their best weapon - UUs. Gastraphetes in particular are ridiculously powerful with their huge range, and you dont have a reason in the world not to make myrmidons as Zeus. Beast slayer is one of the best techs in the game period, and with UUs being created from rax you can spam them.

As for the original topic.. massed priests are a great option vs a titan, for the following reasons which apply almost every time you are up vs a Titan.

-unless you are severely outplayed, the enemy will spend so much res, defense and attention to his titan gate that you should have a good trade route up. This + gold mines which are stripmined by eggies anyway should give you enough gold to make as many priests as you want. So cost wont be that much of a problem.

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-priests dont have counters. Sure, they get killed 1v1 vs most units, but in this case its a matter of how long they can stay alive to pound on a titan. If you mass slingers the enemy can mass antiarchers, which kill them off FAST. Mass priests take longer to kill, and an injured group can retreat, heal themselves and be at full strength in a few seconds, ready to go again. Youre not supposed to kill the supporting army. Youre supposed to kill the titan. If you try to fend off both, youre dead meat. And fact is, if you build any significant number of slingers, the enemy will build peltasts, huskarls or slingers of their own, and these will slaughter your slingers, while theyre busy taking on the titan. If you switch fire away from the titan, it smashes your army. Priests will live longer.

-the titans special attack, and other bonuses vs HUs, doesnt work vs priests. If you build an army of slingers vs the titan, the titan will simply run them over. Youd have to withdraw to the edge of the map. Priests have a chance of physically preventing the titan from going where he wants, or at least slow him down.

-priests kill titans faster. Ok so its not as fast as youd want compared to slingers, but its still faster. And the question is how much damage the titan will do to your base and other army before it goes down. Speed matters.

The point about high ROF units being able to take down high-armor units is valid, but not new. It works wonders vs ranged siege, when the siege is well protected by melee units. CAs especially can smash petroboli from afar if the enemy doesnt react fast enough, and massed slingers take down even some buildings pretty fast due to the minimum damage.. Not to mention the king of mass prickling - the cheiroballista. Every separate arrow does minimum damage I think, they can flatten a norse hillfort fast as hell, even without burning pitch.

PS

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I thought heroes were immune to the special, even if its performed on another unit.. Im pretty sure my hersirs dont get thrown back when the titan pounds the ground, while other nearby units do.. I wont bother to check now though.. X|, hopefully someone else will. Jarls OTOH are not immune to specials since they are not technically heroes. Still having 2 units good vs myth, as well as Fire Giants or packs of wolves, makes them bite hard. And as a Loki player I think of a titan as a Giant Myth Generator (tm).

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 05-31-2004 @ 07:07 PM).]

OK, i'll admit defeat! But I still stand by my opinion that Slingers are better than priests (in general) and that Sekhmet is better than Nepthyses!!!

Sure. But the minor god you pick there depends on your major god (Isis=anc/ecl, Ra and Set go for better barracks and siege, + the extra pop of citadel. I love Sekhmet though, she is a cool cat

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 05-31-2004 @ 08:04 PM).]

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Their stats are basically the same. However preists rape MU's and slings rape archers. Guess whats an MU? The titans. Also massed priests can heal themselves in about five seconds. Id like you to play a game and kill a titan with slingers. 30 slingers would take 4 minutes to kill a titan. 30 slings cost about the same in resources as 25 priests (and cost more in pop). 25 unupgraded priests will kill a titan in a bit more than a minute and a half. Slingers are the same or worse (what with massed healing and 100% accuracy for the priests) vs every single type of unit pop effectively except archers. And i doubt people would make archers to guard a titan so they are the same at killing the titans escort army. Yes theres slings of sun but that just adds one attack to their attack vs infantry and isnt really enough to make a huge difference while a titan is raping your base. See priests do suck but slingers are probably one of the worst units to fight a titan with. They will take literally FOREVER to take down a titan (ie 4 minutes and in 4 minutes your whole base is toast). Also im not saying to build priests all game im saying to mass them when he has a titan. Even with their usual cost they still are much better than slingers. 84 unupgraded priests would take 35 seconds to take down a titan. 100 slingers would take twice that time. Maybe just maybe slingers would kill the supporting army quicker because your opponent may have some archers. However why would you be aiming on the supporting army in the first place. Your first priority is to take down the titan not the supporting army. Since priests can down the titan 3 minutes faster they will do better vs the supporting army since they titan will do less damage and youll have more time to concentrate on the support only.

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Well i am currently using only isis so i do use nephthys but as Set i also tend to get mephthys for ancestors since it still is enough to win a crucial battle and start a domino effect.

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Gold may be precious to them but all the same they always need a lot of it and will therefore have a lot of it. You could also argue that as eggy you dont go heavy on wood and so wont be able to mass slings if he gets a titan out.

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Ok its true that they are cheaper if you dont go nephthys but still that comparison is unfair since 15 priests will kill a titan almost 3 times faster than 15 slings. Basically it all comes down to the fact that priests are pop effectively, cost effectively, and build time effectively better than slingers at fighting titans.

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Slings may kill the supporting army better but its stupid to fight the supporting army. You should aim solely on the titan since taking it out is your greatest priority.

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thanks. Im still writing a set guide im just doing it really slowly at my own pace.

Well priests do 2 hp PER BLOW to a titan with some blows doing just one hp damage.

While the slinger does 1 per blow, and seeing they seem to shoot at the same speed ots safe to say priest are almost twice as damaging as an slinger.

About slinger upgrades, they dont have to be sekhmet and ptah, they can be either non-upgraded or fully upgraded they will still do 0ne to the titan. The Slinger advantage is that it can take down archers and counterinfantry.

Also no one said anything about an slinger only army, the best way to stop a titan is to swarm it with infantry so it cant move, thats why people always like to bring antiinfantry, like archers and counterinfantry, those can be easily beaten by slingers, if the enemy brings cavalry, you just draw some spearmen to defend the slinger, while you swarm the titan with cheap spearmen.

Also if you have a norse partner it will make things easier to hesirs.

About greeks being the civ with more trouble, i dont think so, i mean 3 melee heroes are better than none, and priests are not only useless against a titan, they are also useless against anything else. you can have 15 priests showering magic bolts at a titan and it will take over a minute before only 1000 are taken out, and thats only if he doesnt attack the priests or if he doesnt brings an army, a Titan can eaasily reach the priests and take them down in 2-3 blows since he is faster. Unless you bring a meatshield but again comes the problem of counterinfantry.

About the no titan option ten minutes thing.

Well since they can simply deny techs or units in scenarios and cant deny wonder wins, it would be easy to deny a titan age.

Lets see some algorithm

you put a check box which are already done.
If check box is marked then titan tech is not available.

Again with the stats, run real tests, in the scenario and in real games.

Priest dont kill a titan 3 times faster its less than twice, test it. slinger does always 1 damage, priest do from 2 to 1.

Again thats only test wise, real battle wise, a priest is like a poor nun in a viking raiding, they will be creamed by the archers, or counterinfantry that accomapny the titan.

Slingers will get a lot of extra shots, because a titan can easily catch up with priests, anything can catch up easily with priests even ellies.

slingers can outrun the titan and quite franlky no one cares about them. The enemy will be forced to make cavalry to counter your slingers wich will give you chance to swarm your enemy with spears.

Slingers can be produced in the barracks, while priest needs a temple, which is generally a useless expensive building. while you generally have a lot of barracks people only have 1 or 2 temples.

Run this test,

15 priest + 15 any rax unit vs a titan and 20 archers.

and try to win.

What will happen? the titan will close to your units and crush them, and the priest will follow, less than a 400 hp of damage will be done.

then 30 slingers vs the same thing.

you will be able to destroy the archerswhile damagin the titan, once the titan closes you run a little, with enough time you could kill a titan with just slingers.

In real games obvioulsy you wont be able to run forever, but the titan wont be able to chase you forever, the titan player would just focus in something else.

The titan main function is a super siege weapon, therefore an static titan is a useless titan, so if you can stop a titan with spears the titan is useless, you can back your spears with slingers or priests, priest may do a little more damage to the titan but wont help the spearmen from being obliberated by archers.

what im trying to say, is that an slinger is a lot more useful than a priest and does almost the same damage.

To the one that says that priest counters myths, well its SUPPOSED to counter titans which are myth but they dont, the same way a titan that destroys a castle in 2 shots is not better than 9 villagers in taking down the trojan wall..

I've got one thing to say to you Lessthanjakeman

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I just realised after doing some tests in the editor that Slings DO suck Vs titans. Mostly because they get owned by the Titan special. I realised that 10 minutes after I posted, sorry I wasted your time when you had to write a long explaination.

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as i said it takes 30 slingers 4 minutes to kill a titan. During that time the titan will run over your base.

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While thats true priests take 2/3 of the time to make so just spam a couple more temples and youll have the same amount of priests coming out as you would slingers.

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Theres no point in trying to stop them from being obliterated by archers. They will get obliterated by the titan anyways. Your main focus is to stop the titan from doing any damage. There are two ways to do this. One is to block the titan with infantry. Eventually you do need to kill the titan though so using your whole army to kill the support is stupid. The other way is to simply kill the titan which priests with a small constant stream of a meatshield will do very quickly.

Basically heres my point. Any smart person would have a large army in box formation around the titan. They will lumber through your spearmen and your slings will do little damage to non ranged units or the titan. Once the titan is in your base youre screwed. With priests you have a better situation if they do that. You can keep up a constanty stream of spearmen running at their box formation. This way they cant and wont want to run guys up to your priests to kill them. Sure they will run right over the meatshield even more than with the slings fighting them but the difference is that the priests will have the titan down in a bit over a minute meaning that he wont do too much damage.

Basically your whole point is that you can run spearmen in to stall the titan and back them up with slings to actually allow them to win the battle. See i disagree. First of all lets say you do somehow manage to kill the whole support army even with the titan killing a load of your guys. Then the titan will still hold its own and youll need a constant stream of spears fighting them to stop them from reaching and demolishing your base. Now he has two options. One of them is to flank your slings with his guys and then kill the spears before enough slings can back them up. The spears cant retreat to help them since then the titan will be free. Their other option is to simply use their actual army to hit you somewhere else and youll again be forced to retreat your spears allowing the titan to go free. Basically theres no point in stalling a titan if you dont have units that can kill it while its not doing anything.