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Topic Subject: Mythic Waters
posted 25 July 2004 09:15 AM EDT (US)   
Thought Id take some time off modding for Morrowind and eating spaghetti to do a short tryout of the water myth units in AoT.. things have changed since Vanilla, with heroic fleet making oceanic myth less useful, but OTOH the free myth on advancement, and classic naval battles being less decisive, is making them more frequent anyway.


This isnt an in-depth guide or whatever, but it should be useful. Ill write about other aspects of water myth than simply how well they kill ships as well, since those aspects can be very important. I wont print exactly how tests were carried out, how many hp/sec a Kraken does in damage etc etc, but I will rather draw the basic outlines of water myth creatures´ capabilities.

Starting off, lets look at heroic water myth...

Nereid, Kraken, Scylla and Leviathan.

Letting them battle each other, myth vs myth, is an important test since FHing is popular, so these units will frequently go 1v1

they rank thusly:

Nereid
Kraken
Leviathan
Scylla

Notes: Nereid wins, no surprise as it is a myth killer unit. They really gut other myth. The others were pretty close to each other.

So how about vs ships then.. arrow ships were what I tried them out vs. This is just a test of how f a s t they kill ships, the Leviathan could take on more ships than a Nereid.

rankings:

Kraken
Nereid*
Scylla
Leviathan

*nearly died in the process

Notes: Kraken killed almost only by its special, microing that special away if the attacked ship is very low on HP can be useful. Nereids make flotsam of ships, but they die much more quickly than other water myth. The Scylla didnt get enough kills to really get anything out of its headgrowing special, and the Leviathan comes out last, however it is not at all bad for a water myth unit. It just doesnt have a very powerful special.


Other considerations: Despite the Leviathan and Scylla ranking low, they are by NO means bad. For one thing, lets look at the gods you must pick: Njord is not that great, esp not for Loki, and Hyperion.. *sigh*.. OTOH, Dionysus and Nephtys are both great. Due to eclipse affecting the Leviathan, the Isis FH is even more OP on water maps.

After the free myth, Zeus of course has by far the best possibility to make more. Scyllas are cheap, and only Hyperion could beat Dionysus in a water myth war.


Next, the mythic myth...

Man o´War, Carcinos, War Turtle, Jormund Elver.

When you let them fight the Kraken 1v1, they come out as follows:

Carcinos
Man o´War
War Turtle
Jormund Elver

Notes: Surprisingly, ONLY THE CARCINOS managed to kill the Kraken! All other mythic myth died.

Going up vs ships however, it´s:

War Turtle
Jormund Elver
Carcinos
Man o´War

Notes: War turtles have their ship fling, which doesnt look impressive but is quite powerful. The Jormund Elver´s high attack pays off here, its a cheap myth unit but still made a lot of damage alone. Man o´Wars, despite using chain lightning on several ships, didnt do that well.

Other Considerations: No god here is bad. Thoth gives you even more OP elephants, Tyr is generally powerful, Hera is great and Helios also solid. You really wont want to pick any of these gods solely because of their water myth though. The Jormund elver might be the most interesting unit, since it has a HUGE attack and is ranged, so as a support unit on a map like mediterranean or even watering hole, it will rip land units apart, while siege ships hit shoreline TCs.


Other questions regarding water myth in TT:

How good is the servant?

The free servant is very nice for annoying enemy fishing ships if you dont plan on making any arrow ships in classical. Its healing capabilities are a little too slow to be really useful, but a free unit in classical is always good. You dont have to swim away fast from enemy arrow ships since the servant can take a decent amout of damage, but dont go around challenging enemy fleets with it. Servants+biremes is a more powerful combo than other classical navies, and you might be able to destroy all enemy docks and ships with it in classical, if you spend res on it.


How good is Heroic Fleet?

Just as a simple comparison, the Scylla can destroy 4 arrow ships without them having heroic fleet, but with heroic fleet it loses to 3 arrow ships. The effect is really significant, and almost obliterates the usefulness of water myth for most civs after the enemy has researched it.

Ok thats it for now, comments welcome

Replies:
posted 25 July 2004 09:39 AM EDT (US)     1 / 19  
Interesting read.

.¸¸.· · .¸¸.·´ §hïvå | RágeOfHaemòn · .¸¸.· · .¸¸.·
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posted 25 July 2004 11:33 AM EDT (US)     2 / 19  
pretty good, what about prices etc,
for example i think the elver is probably the best water unit ( im not saying it is best it just fits my needs better then others) and the carcinos is almost double ( cant remember exact figures) the price.
also maybe a table such as giving ratings so for example.
name : elver
ability vs myth: 7
ability vs ships: 9
overall in water : 8
overall help on land: 6 ( it can shoot the acid stuff at people on land, useful on maps such as the med as you can use it to attack and defend sea,)
then overall mark: 30/40
then compare like that??
just some ideas, i know this may take some time but it would be worth it, i might do it, ill say what i think on here but i cant promise good results =P
posted 25 July 2004 11:45 AM EDT (US)     3 / 19  
Thats exactly the pointless number-crunching Im trying to avoid. Theres no need to go in-depth about exact costs, values according to some weird arbitrary formula etc.. I just wanted to mention cost and pop where its appropriate, which I have. And people can check the exact cost and pop for themselves, I dont think I need to do it.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 07-25-2004 @ 12:51 PM).]

posted 25 July 2004 12:27 PM EDT (US)     4 / 19  
Well said!

Nerf... something!
posted 25 July 2004 12:53 PM EDT (US)     5 / 19  
i mean what you think to them, as you are better then most people in here.
and if you help people, do you think it is pointless?
posted 25 July 2004 01:08 PM EDT (US)     6 / 19  
What do you mean "what you think to them"?

I dont think exact numbers really help.. I mean how do you compare favor costs for example? Norse gets it easily, but then maybe not on water.. will spending favor as eggy take away your ability to research their nice upgrades like desert wind or bast´s econ techs? Its complicated, and quite frankly people can find out the best ways to use water myth for themselves, it will vary from person to person. I seem to never be able to afford Krakens for example, but the free one is very useful. For someone else it may be different, if they fight more and longer with arrow ships. I will NOT delve into some ((attack+hp/1.7xfavor+(number of ships+vills))/(heroic fleet=1 or 2)-3x land units)x1.298438 formula, as I think its can be confusing and it is not very helpful.

posted 25 July 2004 01:35 PM EDT (US)     7 / 19  
ok, if your opponent is making carcinos, nereids would be helpful....
they cost less and would work well, if you opponent uses any type of myth these are helpful,
i think i would give them 10/10
but vs ships they arent as good, and not as pop effective as other myth units...
posted 26 July 2004 00:19 AM EDT (US)     8 / 19  
me think he done good. you who say use formula -shut up. have a nice day!
posted 26 July 2004 04:05 AM EDT (US)     9 / 19  
ok, if your opponent is making carcinos, nereids would be helpful....
they cost less and would work well, if you opponent uses any type of myth these are helpful,
i think i would give them 10/10
but vs ships they arent as good, and not as pop effective as other myth units...

Well thank you for the brillant example of what he was trying to prove, I don't see your view there at all no mention of the exact costs minus the pop ratio to over water temperture just brief logical reasons of what to choose and what advantage you get out of it

posted 27 July 2004 11:06 AM EDT (US)     10 / 19  
Wow! Sombody posted somthing useful! Thanks! I play the zues FH on water and used to love the traning times of the Scylla but to many people know how to counter it now.

So 3 Scylla should be able to handle 7 - 12 arrow ships depending on the upgrades / focus fire.

Nice.


tvurt
[img]http://www.skwizz.com/aoe_sign/tvurt@5@3@1@aoe3x@250,250,250@220,172,58.png[/img]
[img]http://www.skwizz.com/aoe_sign/tvurt@5@3@1@aoe3@250,250,250@220,172,58.png[/img]
posted 09 September 2004 03:33 PM EDT (US)     11 / 19  
I'll add it.

Theris264
former Age of Mythology Heaven and Age of Empires III Heaven forumer||former member of Ambition Designs
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" -Gandhi
posted 09 September 2004 03:57 PM EDT (US)     12 / 19  
I noticed that leviathan LOSES to a scylla 1vs1,i tried on the editor,leviathan has more hp,more hack armor,better atk(or was it the same,don't remember)but still lose to scylla
posted 10 September 2004 02:46 PM EDT (US)     13 / 19  
^^^thats coz of its Bonus vs myth

Still

The Jourmound Elver is the hardest to defeat When you have a significant amount of them.

It has high attack
Its rather fast
And it does pierce damage

Its good in groups because

Siege ships counter myth But they are weak to Arrow ships, and since this myth does pierce damage it Theororecicly only has a Single Counter, witch is the Argo.


PS2MAN
The Mythod Clan Burns To Ashes
Long Live The Phoenix!!!!
Phoenix_PS2MAN an Norse Wars Expert

Currently Recuriting Experienced NW UK Players.
posted 11 September 2004 10:59 AM EDT (US)     14 / 19  
Please Delete me Mr. Moderater. (Double post)

"To be a hero is about the shortest lived profession on Earth."
-Will Rogers

[This message has been edited by Cataphract_40 (edited 09-11-2004 @ 11:04 AM).]

posted 11 September 2004 11:04 AM EDT (US)     15 / 19  
Don't forget that the Carcinos does several hundred damage in a large explosion when it dies (like the Scarab, only much stronger), making it capable of sinking many ships at once when used as a bomb.

"To be a hero is about the shortest lived profession on Earth."
-Will Rogers
posted 11 September 2004 08:30 PM EDT (US)     16 / 19  
also when i wsa gaia the dock didn't fire on my sevants i think this is a bug
posted 11 September 2004 08:31 PM EDT (US)     17 / 19  
don't forget also that hte leviathan is an uber transport ship at heart, i.e it can carry units, think its either 10 or 15...
posted 12 September 2004 02:52 AM EDT (US)     18 / 19  
Wow... I dun remember anyone doing on Water MUs b4... thanks for the info, dearie...

And I always thought tht jellyfish was awesome...


The Earth can satisfy our need
but She can't satisfy our greed
So use only wat u need
for nobody can tame our Mother
when She's angry
posted 12 September 2004 01:07 PM EDT (US)     19 / 19  
As a Poseidon player just my free scylla often saved my ass on water maps, which i terribly suck at.

PS:Morrowind as in The Elder Scrolls 3?*is a big fan of it*


"All you have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to you...."-Gandalf
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