good post i didnt know the vampirism part. i vote that you should make a guide to the fenris wolf next!! they are a really good MU and i think it would be interesting to learn all your little experiments with them. good post again

nice to see you reminding people of the trolls uses,
i think the reason they arent overly used, is because, they are good in a rush, kill the insta MU and backup, they are relatively cheap, and massable, only problems being, thor-- good all rounder, not an all out rusher, more a raid sort of god, therefore valks are the good option,
and loki.. nothing to take down the TC without the ein,
so trolls aint really an option, but when i go agianst another loki player, or someone i know goes myth heavy i always make trolls, about 6 =P that is great, very hard to kill,
and the regen is great, especially as they are ranged so therefore can flee from fights, also a single troll kinda sucks,
and not really seen as great, the 4 trolls vs a niddhog was interesting, do 3 hammartrolls win vs a niddhog? dont worry bout it if you arent sure, great though, especially for norse as they lack a decent air unit killer, taxemen ( which suck) and ballista which kinda sucks, an ok unit killer though,
and my vote goes for the battle boar, but tests will be hard because they are better for a major meatshield and rip up everything

Hey nice guide,i never knew the Vampirism was that useful,maybe should really consider forcetti(sp) when play thor(if u r Loki u probably should go Heimdall for the Rush)

but what about the upgrade,how much does that affects the troll.

good guide all the same

BTW i vote for the Mountain Giant

Keep up the good work!

Btw the upgrade makes Hp +50,(Now 250)Range +2(now 16) and Dmg +2(now 14). It also gives the trolls two heads, which is a cool graphics feature. With this upgrade, three spread out trolls(now called Hammartrolls) can defeat Nidhogg with two still alive! One has 60/250, the other is untouched.

[This message has been edited by Meanotaur (edited 09-02-2004 @ 04:58 PM).]

Wait a second... I know this is a stupid question but why do rocks do pierce damage? I'm not saying that Norse doesnt need pierce damage, they do more than anyone else but why does a rounded, powerful ROCK stab someone like a dagger?? Just asking...

EDIT: I just looked in a mythology book. It says that the big, fat, grey, lovable menace known as the troll threw jagged, sharp rocks that were meant to make their foes very very covered in boo-boos. They did not throw bowling balls as I previously believed.

[This message has been edited by Meanotaur (edited 09-03-2004 @ 01:58 AM).]

Nice post on rethinking what seem think is the worst myth creature out there. I like to use them in certain situations when rushing(mostly only against Norse) or if I am having big problems with a Loki rusher. Otherwise they are too slow for anything and as Thor I need the early favor for dressing up my Bragi ulfs. Towers with their no pop cost, triple damage to calvary and boats and 550 hitpoints tend to outweigh the Troll.

Also you have the pop cost wrong, it is 4, not 3 - at least in vanilla(and the unit tables listed on this site), but I don't think that changed in Titans.

I had never really considered using them for Niddhog, considering that the only time I really tend to go that god route is against Loki - who is the only one I really ever see use the Niddhog - I think I will be more inclined to go that route everytime vs. Loki. That sounds much much better and less disruptive then my typical TA and Tower method.

To be honest Trolls are so completely overlooked most of the time I didn't even know about the vampirism. Good article.

I'd most like to see one on Battle Boar... don't think I've ever read anything suggesting to use one, or how to use one.

Give me a Medusa and it's "Bye bye Troll."

I think trolls rock, I love Healing Spring too, so when I play Thor (i never play Thor) I always pick him.

I don't know why they're seen as bad, they really do kick ass!

I'm 99% sure that its 3 pop in Titans, but I also seem to recall it being 4 in Vanilla. And btw its byebye anything if u have a medusa - plus its mythic vs. classical. Hardly anyone uses classical MU in mythic.

trolls are ridiculously easy to kills with hero due to their low hp.

That is probably their main weakness - but all MU are pretty easily killed by Heroes. Nonetheless, trolls are still very good myth units - they just need a meatshield.

meatshield wont work versus eggys(ranged heross.) Greek gets a ranged hero as well.Oranos/kronos almost always valorize turma.So really their most effective versus another norse player .

I agree that they dont work well vs. the Egyptians, however I would think they do pretty decent against the greeks if you are careful to avoid the heroes. Also you can only get 9 heroes out of 3 valor usages, plus the enemy since ur Norse probably wont have many turmas anyways. If he does his non-hero ones will be easily taken down and his valored ones will only be a small hazard since Attie heroes aren't really even as good as Hersirs or Priests. If he spends the resources to make most or all heroes he probably wont win anyways cuz he's spent so much.

Honestly, I am puzzled that people are surprised about the use of trolls, when in elite replays every Thor player goes Forseti against Loki! This situation is the most important one for trolls.

The reason is that the valk is a melee fighter. A formidable one, but not against Loki, because you cannot protect her from his numerous hersirs in main battles. Sure, you can ride to his base and burn down a forest and stuff, but the most urgent thing that you need to achieve is surviving his initial rush. Time is working for you, because Thor is better in the later ages.

The most obvious problem preventing you from surviving the early rush period is his einherjars (besides the undermine gp). How can trolls help where the valk would fail? Well, trolls are ranged, so they can act from the rear and be protected by your meat shield melee units. That means that his hersirs have a hard time getting to your trolls. Meanwhile, you order all your trolls to target his einherjars. Einherjars have lesser pierce armor than hack armor, and trolls do 3x damage vs myth. As the consequence, his einherjars will go down quickly. If you succeed, he has to fight without einherjars, while your number of trolls keeps climbing. If he has no more einherjars (or other, hersir-summoned myth) on the battlefield you can always target his TA, which Loki usually has lots of (to prevent your hersirs from killing his myth). Do not target his hersirs, because trolls are neutered against heroes.

As the consequence, I would say that not rush, but rush defense is the best use for the slow troll, also with regard to the fact that Forseti is a defensive god.

The guide is very interesting, although I believe that ignoring the hammarrtroll improvement is a mistake. Unlike many other myth unit improvements, the hammarrtroll upgrade is not extortionally expensive and gives a great bonus for your money. Particularly comparisons against Nidhogg and similar foes you should assume you have that upgrade, because it does not make sense to use trolls as late as that but not have it). It often pays to set your temple on troll auto-queue (automatically making the next troll when you have gained the necessary favor) and insert the hammarrtroll upgrade once you have a few trolls. You will get less hersirs that way, but as we just saw, trolls are an excellent replacement for hersirs against enemy myth. The only thing you must take care of is turning off auto-queue in time so that you can pay for the favor upgrades in heroic age. In classical, however, having as many trolls as possible as quickly as possible has the highest use, particularly against a rusher. (The hammarrtroll and Hall of Thanes improvements cost less favor than one troll, so you can jam them in when you desire without turning off auto-queue when you have accumulated at least 10 favor.)

Fact is that trolls only cost 3 pop, even if the AoM Heaven tables tell the opposite. As far as I remember, a patch reduced them from 4 pop, but it may as well have been the TT expansion. Does not really matter today anyway.

I believe that Forseti is also a valid option against Kronos for the same reason. You want to kill his proms quickly and repulse his rush. The healing spring is a defensive gp that will help you better against a Kronos rusher than forest fire. Of course you need to take maximum care to place it so that he cannot take it over and use it to support his rush.

As I learnt from replays of NoFx__P3n3m4, Forseti is also a very good choice against Ra. However, trolls are not the reason. As we all know, Ra goes FH quickly and then attacks with all kinds of migdol units. However, Ra is virtually certain not to rush us in classical (would be a too high gamble for a decently-rated player), so we can do a late Forseti classical (getting econ upgrades early and maxing out our economy). We then also do a FH using Bragi. Afterwards, we make a few hill forts at a strategically important position (gold mines) and spam only ulfsarks and huskarls. The trick is that this simple combination counters every possible mix of migdol units. We use huskarls against his chariots and Bragi ulfs against the elephants and camels. Forseti benefits us in that he provides an additional cheap armor upgrade for the ulfsarks.

Ra will be forced to make axemen. However, Ra hates to make barracks units, because he gets his bonus on migdol units only. (That is also why often he will not have any barracks, so he must erect them once he realizes our strategy.) He also needs to upgrade axemen separately to make them effective. Forsetis mithril breastplate upgrade will help our ulfsarks survive better against any axemen that do come (and of course, it will make them even better against phants). If axemen begin to become a problem, just add TA as needed. Ulfsarks may not be a first choice meat shield against axemen, but with massed TA in their rear and protected by mithril breastplate (as well as call of valhalla), they will do fine.

This has the side effect that the infantry line upgrades will upgrade our entire army: ulfsarks, huskarls, and TA. Of course if we have some money left and he invests too heavily in axemen for our taste, we can always upgrade cavalry and add jarls or RC for meat shield purposes (with TA finishing off the axemen). But it is possible to defeat Ra without having made one single RC! And I am not talking noob level; I saw NoFx__P3n3m4 (1900) do it against a similarly-rated Ra.

When it comes to mythic, we go Tyr and end up having the ultimate ulfsarks. Our huskarls will benefit as well, getting a Zeus hoplite bonus against buildings (but unlike hoplites, they have a way better pierce armor against defensive building fire).

Needless to say that an infantry-heavy Norse also has an easy time digging out a titan gate if need be, so we can do without ragnarok for this purpose.

I'm surprised so few people knew about the vampirism. It is their special, as much as stoning is to the medusa or any other special. As playing Thor I go Forseti 4 his Ulf tech. I go with the unusual combo of RC+Ulf. I do it because I can micro well. As this combo is food intensive and Valks cost food so it is difficult to obtain enough of it to spare some 4 Valks. On the other hand wood is saved for pierce Armour upgrades and trolls. Which add the counter to melee anti-infantry along with the RC. If ur micro is good, u can even use ur high speed RC to flank the relatively weak priests and destroy them, making this effective vs. even eggy.

[This message has been edited by deathmaster666 (edited 09-03-2004 @ 06:52 AM).]

Yeah, Bragi FU ulfsarks are very strong, now add in another upgrade, one of the only Norse units that pierces(which also does well vs. MU) and the Meatshield-shredding or Meatshielding Battleboar. Great additions to any army.

[This message has been edited by Meanotaur (edited 09-07-2004 @ 07:44 PM).]

forsetti, bragi and tyr ulfs kick elly ass =)
and pro's dont choose trolls over valks, becasue they have hersir, more because trolls vs myth = myth dead, FF isnt to great if u r defending, and the spring when placed next to ur tc ( protection) is good, if you lose ur tc, u pretty much lost the game anyway

Valks get the same 3x multiplier against myth that trolls get, so in theory, you could go Freyja and resort to valks against Loki. However, this will not work because Loki will be bringing lots of hersirs which will kill the valks in no time while you can protect your trolls with a meat shield. The rest that you said is true, although using the spring for defense is dangerous because it can be taken over and used to enforce the rush against you. You need to place it wisely so that you can make sure he will never have more units near it than you do (your buildings counting, too).

Side question: Valks can heal ships. Can a spring do the same?

what i meant by the spring is, placing next to a tc, you should be able to keep it, unless the rush has killed you, which i guess would mean you dont need it anymore...
and i think a spring does, im not 100% sure but i played a sea game with a spring in it, and it healed my ships, BUT the spring could of been changed to do so...
never knew valks got a bonus as well =)

I am also surprised that people didn't know that trolls regenerated. Now I wouldn't even be surprised if people didn't know that Wadjets regenerated. IMO, Forseti is one of the greatest healing gods. He gets technologies that make your units have more HP, a regenterating MU, and a healing GP. I know that some may say "But the healing spring heals so slowly!" In the heroic age, gold is the MOST valuable resource. But up till then, the most valuable is food. Valkyries cost 200 food. I usually play as Odin, with all his food upgrades, and can only make a max of two. Valkyries are good and heal quickly, but cost too much. But for Forseti, everything costs wood. Wood is the least used resource for Norse, since they have no archers. Wood can easily be spared, while your food economy can keep running. In other words, Forseti is a better healing god in the Classical age. In heroic, you start getting mroe food, and you can spare food for valks.

Forsetti has good myth techs too. Id pick him over Freyja, but not heimdall

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I don't know if I speak for everyone, but I knew they gained HP for every hit, I just didn't know it was called Vampirism

[This message has been edited by Quircus (edited 09-06-2004 @ 12:23 PM).]

Quote:

We all just went along with him and started calling it vampirism. Most people who replied didn't even know that they regenerated in that way.

i vote frost giant