Because there are more non-Greek/Axe/TA units than there are Greek/Axe/TAs?

In many situations the myrmidon will have more than twice the attack of the hoplite.

[This message has been edited by Rookierookie (edited 11-22-2004 @ 09:27 AM).]

Your points are valid, but you need to look at the area they block. They take 3pop but block as a 2pop unit. That is an advantage because 3 hoplites will not kill one single unit as fast as would 3 myrmidoms in a large battle. There is always a point where adding more infantry isn't effective because of pathing. Most will be just trying to run around to find something to attack while other will be just waiting until one die to take his place.

Quoted from Rookies:

These points have been factored in - hops are as good as myrms against most units, and far better against Axemen, Greeks and TAs. Despite the attack difference.

@G3_: It's a good point that you make, but I think that Zeus hop speed compensates for this factor to an extent. I'm not convinced that the comparable size, given the decent pathing of infantry, is a huge factor (although I do accept it is something of a factor).

Also your opponent WILL make plenty of axemen or TAs if faced with myrms, further limiting their value.

Well, Myrmidons are a bit expensive. However they have 6 more attack, and only 7 less hp. They have almost the same armor as the hoppy. Against most non-greeks, they do incredibly well. The myrmidon with beast slayer is ok against myth units but hoplites fall really quickly(bellerophon can handle the myth units tho) and Myrmidons are great siege. 2 Hoplites will do a little damage to a TC, but 2 myrmidons will take it almost half way.

@ Meanotaur: You don't seem to appreciate that a myrmidon occupies 3 pop slots whilst a hoplite only occupies 2. Therefore your comparisons should be 3 hoplites vs 2 myrmidons. In which case the hoplites slightly outperform the myrmidons in all cases (especially against Greek and anti-infantry) except when facing myth units.

I never really thought about this. Remember Myrmidon used to take up 2 pop slots in Vanilla but this was slightly compensated by the fact they could only be trained in fortresses. So ES did originally intend to have Myrmidons as 2 pop units. I always considered them to be very strong units but when you look at the comparison, I'll certainly think about whether they're worth it.

IMHO, I think myrmidons are better if you have a forward base (which you probably have). Since you are constantly making units, the training time of myrmidons are equal to the training time of hoplites. This way you get stronger units faster, as your units get killed.

Yukito, I see your point - but in the majority of situations like that you are constantly streaming units and your barracks will tend to have queued units... which means that training time isn't so important.

And of course with myrmidons you HAVE to choose hephaestus rather than hera in order to obtain myrms which can match hoplites for pop/cost efficiency, as you need Weapons of the Titans. Without it hops beat myrms hands down. (Of course Hephaestus is often the best choice anyway)...

the thing is, u wont be only having a single army. u will continue to making them. if you are comparing them like this, u can say cavalry sucks a lot.

Quote:

Well, pop slots and cost are still critical even with a replenishing army - and most people don't rely heavily on cavalry once they are in mythic (except maybe norse, but their RC is 2 pop!).

and as mention before, the size of the unit matters a lot
say

]XXXXXXX[
]XXXXXXX[
]YYYYYYY[
  YY

]=other units blocking, cliffs, trees, water...etc
Say the X's are the hoptlies and the Y's are mymridons. Then u can see that half of the hops are in the back, not able to fight while most of the myrmidon are fighting.

I understand this point, it's a simple enough concept and I agree with it in principle.

What I'm saying is that this factor isn't enough to make up for the fact that hops are better than myrms.... even in the example you give the hops would slaughter the myrms!

It boils down to this:

In most instances hops and myrms are roughly equal in terms of pop/cost effectiveness - assuming you research Weapons of the Titans. The myrm's smaller size per pop is balanced by the hop's superior speed.

However, factor in the fact that your opponent will most likely make at least some of the units that counter myrms / that myrms don't get a 50% bonus against - axemen, TAs or anything greek, and in these conflicts the hoplites are over 50% better than the myrms.

So in some instancs hops = myrms, in others hops >> myrms. Hardly ever will there be an occasion where myrms > hops.

And yet, against non-greeks, the conventional wisdom is that myrms are super-strong. I've read this a lot, and used to think it myself. Never before have I read the truth, which is "myrms are worse than hops in terms of pop/cost, but have the slight advantage in terms of being small".

errr that little bit opf speed is NOT that great of an advantage.

Quote:

This is like swimming through treacle! Capitalising the word 'not' doesn't mean that your point is true, especially if that is the entire extent of your argument.

But to walk you through the point: unit speed is important. The comparison here is ZEUS hops vs myrmidons (as that is the choice that a player would be making). From memory Zeus hoplites are 12% faster than normal hops, giving them a speed of 4.7 vs a myrm which has a speed of 4. This is significant because:

1) The hops can better align themselves against the enemy (faster pathing) which ameliorates the one advantage that the myrmidon has (more pop in the same size unit).

2) The majority of units that counter infantry are ranged - so the ability to close in on them rapidly is important. The exceptions are hypaspists, axemen and throwing axemen - against all of which hoplites are vastly superior to myrms anyway. (Incidentally, the ranged counters to infantry are also more effective against myrms than hops because focus firing is more effective against larger, higher hit-point units. This is because a) the first volley of focused shots is less accurate than the rest, b) when a unit dies, arrows are wasted so more units per pop equivalent = more wasted arrows and c) a larger physical number of units has more chance of swamping the ranged enemy through mass)

3) As hops are faster, and in mythic you tend to be streaming units into battle, the lesser travel time is an advantage.

4) Hops can catch more units than myrms.

So whilst you might dismiss the fact that unit speed is as important as unit size (without offering a rationale) purely because it fits your side of the argument, I think that *broadly speaking* my points above show that one could offset hops' speed against myrms' compactness. And the unit compactness point certainly doesn't make up for the fact that the hoplite is vastly superior against the counters that an opponent is likely to make!

as it is, most players dont send arcehrs and things without a meatshield. u can try moving er hoplties out of the meatshield and attack the the archers but that wont be very effective.

and then again, myrm can be creatted via fortress, means that it could be produced faster than hops.

focus fire is always better than scattered fire. say you have 20 tox. the same number of hops are coming. if you concetrate the 20 tox fire on 1 hoplite, you could kill 2 before they even can start hitting you. by doing that, you can minimize the damage dealt by the hops. its better to have the first 10 sed doing 50 damage (eg), the next 10 second 40...going down then to have the whoele minute taking 50 damage each. gah hard to explain.

there no point of catching. by mythic is about war of attrition. its almost as if whoever outspams the other wins. ppl wont pull their army out, cause they could make a new one as quiclky.

youll also find the hops, even with their faster speed, jamming themselves up in large battles. one guy moving left and one guy moving right=jam.

1) myrmidon can even counter MU with tech "Beastslayer"
2) myrmidons are much better than hop in mass with same pop. Why? Pathing problem. More Number => more hard to mirco
3) the training time of myrmidon per pop slot is faster. you always can make your population refill faster.
4) you prefer a unit with higher attack or longer life? I definitely choose a unit with higher attack.

^yes, he points out even more pros to the myrmidon.

Quoted from Echowinds:

I know. But nonetheless one often sees the situation where infantry does have to close in on archers, and hoplites are better at it than myrmidons.

Quoted from Echowinds:

I think I might have lost you with my point. Of course focus fire is better than scattered fire - this is a fundamental point that I assumed everyone knew and could be taken for granted. Indeed it is central to the point I was making... GIVEN the fact that focus fire is utilised, the limitations of focus fire (which is the more intricate point and less well known within the game) make it less effective against hoplites than myrms... try reading the point I made again.

Quoted from Echowinds:

True enough, but given the fact that at this point you're likely to have plenty of military academies, this is rarely an advantage. Rax alone should be able to maintain military presence at pop max.

Quoted from Echowinds:

True enough I suppose. I'd still maintain that their superior resilience to the units that an opponent would make to counter them, combined with their speed, more than makes up for this.

Quoted from A192:

This is true, and important vs titans. However as previously mentioned myth units present no significant issue vs Zeus in mythic. Bellerophon and (if Hera) medusas...

Quoted from A192:

As previously mentioned, I recognise this issue but I think it's being overplayed. Infantry have good pathing and hoplites' other attributes make up for this. *Also the increased physical space that hops take up make them a superior meatshield to myrms.*

Quoted from A192:

In mythic this isn't often an issue as your military production can keep pace with your battle casualties... you'll easily have units queued up in your barracks waiting for pop slots to free up. A bigger issue is travel time from rax to battle - which is an area where hops beat myrms.

Quoted from A192:

Interesting... typically lifespan X attack would be the measure, which would indicate that the two are basically equivalent. I suppose that there are times when this is not the case:

1) In a sustained mythic battle there might be times when overall attack per second is more important than the absolute effectiveness of a unit before it dies... I'll have to think about that some more.

2) In a meatshield, longevity is more important than attack... so if you're looking to use your infantry as a meatshield this suggests an advantage to the hoplites.

But this is all playing around the edges of the issue. I'll repeat it: they are broadly the same, but myrms are better vs myth units and hops are better vs their counters. The problem is, if faced with myrms or hops you're going to produce their counters. So in a real game, hops are superior by far.

I've posted (on other thread) my opinions about Myrms, and they still don't have changed:
Myrms are good Vs Buildings (as Hops), Vs MU's (when Hops Sucks a lot) and AGAINST THEIR COUNTERS, because they have better base attack than Hops. Against an Axeman, a Hop will do his base damage (his bonus is Vs cav, not infantry), wich is worse than the Myrm damage. Against a Spearmen, a Hop will do his base damage (same reason as the Axemen above), while the Myrm will really undo the spear with his higher attck aligned with his bonus.
TA's are really a factor that contribute to a advantage of the Myrm, coz they have a (if i'm not wrong) 2.25 bonus Vs infantry and a 2.75 VS HOPLITES. The reason for this "exception" i don't know. But it seems that are the facts.
Resuming:
Against archers: Myrm wins (better pierce armor)
Against cavalry: don't know. Wich are the bonuses of each?
Against infantry: Myrm clearly wins. As many enemy units will be infantry this is a good noting point.
Against Hard infantry-couters: Myrm wins: Better base damage and no special vulnerability Vs TA's (norse main anti-infantry).
Against Greek: Well, i don't spam Myrms. Doesn't makes sense for me.
Againts MU's: Myrm wins.
Against buildings: Myrm wins, coz they have higher armor and need less space to close on the building. Altough the greater number of Hops would make for a more distributed (and softer)building arrow targeting.

A interesting point is that Hops are REALLY INCREDIBLE meat shields, even tougher than Myrms. They have an exclusive tech (Sarissa) that improves defense, while the Myrms have unique techs that improve attack (W. of Titans and Beast slayer, vs MU's).
And the most important point (posted by a192) is: At MYTHYC, you'll prefer a overall better attack unit or a tougher, low attack unit? I still use myrms as meat shield to Tox's, altough by the time (and upgrades)the real killers are THE MYRMS, not the Tox's. And if i'm in REAL need of a tougher unit i see better choice than the Colossus, even more after the cheaper favor cost (HUHUHU!!!).
Against Greek, myrms=no way. Against non-greek, i replace them as soon as i can, but against heavy cavalry spammers (Odin Jarls and Elephants)the Hop can prove his worthiness.

Jet_Set_Jim, I like your reasoning!
I will surely think twice the next time I choose between myrms and hops... Your info is very surprising indeed.
However,in order to compare the units one must also take into consideration other units bonuses vs each one of them. I seem to recall that bonuses vs myrms are sometimes lower than bonuses vs general infantry, but I could be mistaken...

Anyway, thanks for sharing! Keep up the good posts!

Thanks amicus_curious!

@Mighty Noldor - respectfully I'm afraid that I don't agree with a lot of what you say. Bearing in mind that pop/cost wise myrms only manage to roughly equal hops when they get their 50% attack bonus. So...

Quote:

No. They both get the 2X attack bonus against buildings, but myrms don't receive their 50% attack bonus against non-greek non-infantry counters.

Quote:

No. Beastslayer gives myrms a 50% attack bonus against MUs, but this simply replaces the 50% attack bonus that myrms get against non-greeks... so pop/cost wise myrms are roughly equal with hops against MUs (little known fact!)

Quote:

No. Against hyps, axemen and TAs they lose their attack bonus! Hoplites are superior.

Quote:

No. I think you are comparing 1 of each unit without considering their relative pop and hit point levels. Take these into account and the hoplite is way better against the axeman than is the myrm. Against a spearman they perform roughly equally, even with the 50% myrm upgrade. (Also hops get no bonus against cav).

Quote:

No. TAs receive a 2.75x bonus vs hops and myrms, and 2.25X bonus against pretty much all other infantry:

http://pete.magneticpole.com/games/aom/tables.php

Also myrms do not receive their bonus against TAs, so combined with their lower speed and higher hp/pop per unit they fair more poorly against TAs than do hoplites.

Quote:

No. The actual comparison, taking into account pop/cost, looks like this:

vs All greek human units: Hops are c. 50% better than myrms.

vs Most non-greek human units: Hops and myrms are roughly equal, however...

vs Axemen, Throwing Axemen: Hops are c. 50% better than myrms - and these are the units that your enemy will try to utilise in these instances

vs Slingers, Arcus, Chariot archers: hoplites are better due to their speed and the more dispersed distribution of pop/hp per unit. Also they make better meatshields.

vs Myth: Hops are 50% better than myrms against myth, but with beast slayer they are roughly equal (yes really!). Plus any MU specials impact myrms more because they 'hold' more pop etc in the affected unit.

vs Buildings: Hops are c. 50% better than myrms.

vs Seige & villagers: Hops are c. 50% better than myrms.

I think I've already shown the italicised table above to be true, but I'm happy to prove any of the points listed once more. However - I think that this conclusively proves that hoplites are a superior pop/cost choice to myrmidons.

Well, can be.
I will try to mantain Hops as my mainline vs Non-Greek and will post my experience.
Playing can be more elucidative than these explanations and counter-explanations afterall, isn't?

Oh.
And that table that was on the link differs from the AoM Heaven table (i even printed AoMH table!). For instance: Hypaspysts on AoMH table do X4.25 damage Vs infantry, while on that site it was X3.75.
Hey, from where do you took all those info?

@ Mighty Noldor: I totally agree with your comment - playing experience can vary tremendously from "the maths"! Just remember to compare 3 hoplites to every 2 myrmidons. Certainly a "clump" of myrms on the screen will massively outperform a similar sized "clump" of hoplites, and this is what intuitively we would observe.

Also I think the table I provided is updated to take into account patches etc. whereas the AOMH table is riddled with errors now (no offence to this great website!).

About the tables: Hey, moderators, any opinions about the 2 differign tables?
About the thread: Yes, i'll have the opportunity to put this to action today.
No Myrms, only Hops.
Just let me say one thing to all people here:
One month ago i was a COMPLETE NOOB on this game. Didn't know even what was face a Atlant rusher or an Isis FH A/E lamer. Now I still i'm bad at AoM, but in 1 month, became the better player on my LAN, making the other guys take acknowledge of me in the hardest possible way...
With the helping of both AoMH forum and playing massively online, i'm a much better player now!
Oh, i needed to say that! ;p