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Topic Subject: Revolutionary gameplay ideas
posted 19 September 2006 08:50 AM EDT (US)   
Revolutionary gameplay ideas
By me This is not really an article. It's more or less meant to share some ideas of mine with you.

TABLE OF CONTENTS:
  • Environment and skills
  • Relations between your heroes
  • Wages
  • Environment
    I'm, partly by means of an experiment, working on a simple, linear scenario. You start with a bunch of heroes and need to hack and slash your way through to the other end of the map, gradually improving on the way. However, this isn't all. Instead of a boring 'skills' system like "+1 attack for every 10 kills", your heroes really have to learn, and may also forget their skills again when they don't practice. In addition, heroes may become friends, and fighting near friends of course gives them a healthy boost. How do I realise all this? I'll first explain the skills system.

  • Decide which kinds of skills you need. What about the following example skill: Line of Sight.
  • Decide in which situations the skills should be learnt. Line of Sight could be learnt when standing on a hilltop, overlooking the landscape!
  • Now, you need two triggers per hero, per skill, that determine whether you are in an "educative situation" (e.g. on a hilltop).
    Whether you're on a hilltop should be decided based on cinematic blocks you put on each hilltop, let's call them "environmental markers". The conditions for the trigger are a disjunction ("OR") of the hero's distance to each environmental marker:
    ACTIVE
    Distance to block A < 5 OR
    Distance to block B < 5 OR
    Distance to block C < 5 OR
    ...etc...
    -->
    QV Set "sight" to 1,
    Fire the trigger below.
    And of course you need triggers that check whether you're out of the situation again, that set the quest vars back to zero. In this case, the condition is a conjunction of the hero's distance to each environmental marker:
    INACTIVE
    Distance to block A > 5 AND
    Distance to block B > 5 AND
    Distance to block C > 5 AND
    ...etc...
    -->
    QV Set "sight" to 0,
    Fire the trigger above.

  • So, we have a quest var called "sight" that is set to 1 when the hero is in a educative situation for the Line of Sight skill, and set to 0 in any other situation. What we need now is a single trigger that constantly increases our hero's Line of Sight when the hero is in an educational situation (e.g. on a hilltop). I use a custom effect QV Modify Protounit for that, in which the delta field has a quest var as input.
    LOOPING, ACTIVE
    timer 1 second
    -->
    QV Copy "delta_sight" from "sight",
    QV modify "delta_sight" * 0.1,
    QV Modify Protounit: Hero, LOS, delta = "delta_sight".
    This trigger is active all the time, even when our hero isn't in an educative situation. But it only actually performs something when the "sight" QV does not equal zero. If "sight" == 0, then "delta_sight" == 0 also (namely 0.1*0), and nothing will happen. Only if "sight" == 1 (e.g. when on a hilltop), this looping trigger will slowly increase the LOS with 0.1 per second (namely 0.1*1).
  • Now, the good thing is that instead of only 0 and 1, we can set the quest var "sight" to any number. For really high hills (very educative!) it could be 2 (causing an LOS increase of 0.2 per second), and for low hills it could be like 0.5 (increase 0.05 per second)! And the best thing: the factor can also be negative, causing a skill decay! In example, when our hero is not in an educative situation, set "sight" back to -0.1 instead of zero. This way, LOS will slowly decrease again when you're not on a hilltop. The hero "forgets" his skill.
  • Summary of the triggers required for a "sight" skill for one hero:
    ACTIVE
    Distance to block A < 5 OR
    Distance to block B < 5 OR
    Distance to block C < 5 OR
    ...etc...
    -->
    QV Set "sight" to X,
    Fire the trigger below.
    (Where X is the educational value of the situation. e.g. the higher the hill, the higher X. Any value from 0 to 2 is reasonable. In this case, you need a separate trigger for each educational value you wish (so group similar hills together, e.g. the low hills (0.5), the medium hills (1.0) and the high hills (2.0).)
    INACTIVE
    Distance to block A > 5 AND
    Distance to block B > 5 AND
    Distance to block C > 5 AND
    ...etc...
    -->
    QV Set "sight" to Y,
    Fire the trigger above.
    (Where Y is a negative value called the Forget Rate, depending on how fast your hero forgets. -0.1 would be reasonable.)
    LOOPING, ACTIVE
    timer 1 second
    -->
    QV Copy "delta_sight" from "sight",
    QV modify "delta_sight" * 0.1,
    QV Modify Protounit: Hero, LOS, delta = "delta_sight".

  • Other possible skills are: attack (when enemies are near, and the more enemies there are, the higher the "attack" quest var (or the educational value)!), forest (e.g. how far you can see in a dense forest, or how fast you can run there), negotiate (which you learn when nearby some allied or neutral units and which can be used to convert them to your side). Each skill can of course have different educational/forgetting values.
  • Of course you can add limits to the skills - you wouldn't want a hero with 100 LOS, that would be a bit overpowered. Making the learning process exponential solves this automatically (exponential means: the better your skills, the harder it is to improve it even more).

    I will add the part about relations between the heroes later on. It's even more interesting

    If you want a better explanation or a summary, please say so. I have written this very fast. If you want more maths or more formal trigger descriptions, or another skill example, or explanation on the limits and exponential part, also tell me. I hope you liked it so far

    Relations

  • There are four heroes. Each pair of heroes of course needs a "friendship" quest var that holds their relation-strength. This makes six quest vars total.
  • Relations are basically skills. However, instead of the "environment markers" above, you need triggers that check the distance between heroes. Also, it works best if another condition is that no other heroes, besides the two friends-to-be, are in the area. Otherwhise all units grouped together are constantly, passively, working on their relations - which is boring. I will not go into detail on the specific triggers you need for this. Just see for yourself.
  • Now, I want that befriended heroes, when near eachother, fight better (e.g. increased attack). You need a trigger that checks whether they're near eachother, and if so, modify the attack of both corresponding heroes by an amount linearly or exponentially (however important you want friendship to be) dependent on the friendship quest var. I used QV Modify Protounit for this and just used the friendship QV itself as input.
  • Of course you need to change the stats back as soon as they're away from eachother again. And that's where you have to pay attention: during the time the friends were near eachother, their relation improved. So, if you just substract the (now changed) relationship friendship quest var from the heroes' attack, a larger value will have been substracted from it than the one added to it in the first place. Solve this by copying the friendship quest var into a friendship_backup quest var at the time you boost the stats. Then substract this backup after the boost, instead of the - now changed - original quest var. Add the condition "timer 10 seconds" to the trigger ending the boost and check OR. This way, the boost will automatically adjust itself to the ever changing friendship quest var.

    Easy-peasy Again, tell me if you want a better explanations, and just tell me if you want an overview of the triggers required for this.

    Wages
    Imagine you have to pay the wages of your army. Perfectly sensible, no? Then why is it never implemented? It's really quite easy

  • First, we need a trigger that takes the wages from your gold amount, every, say, five seconds. To do so, we use the custom effect QV Grant Resources:
       <Effect name="QV Grant Resources">
    <Param name="PlayerID" dispName="$$22301$$Player" varType="player">1</Param>
    <Param name="ResName" dispName="$$22455$$Resource" varType="resource">gold</Param>
    <Param name="Amount QV" dispName="$$22456$$Amount" varType="string">QV1</Param>
    <Command>trPlayerGrantResources(%PlayerID%, "%ResName%",trQuestVarGet("%Amount%"));</Command>
    </Effect>

    We then make a simple trigger like this, with the custom effect:
    LOOPING, ACTIVE
    timer 5 seconds
    -->
    QV Grant Resources: player 1, Resource gold, Amount QV "wages".

    This trigger makes sure that every five seconds, the amount stored in 'wages' is added to your gold amount. This means that wages should have a negative amount (a number below zero) in order for it to [u]substract[/i] it from your gold amount.
  • To calculate the height of the wages, we need to store the number of military units you have in a quest var (because you don't pay your civilians, right?). To do so, we need another custom effect: QV Set Unit count by type.
       <Effect name="QV Set Unit count by type">
    <Param name="QVName" dispName="$$23952$$Var Name" VarType="string">QV1</Param>
    <Param name="ProtoUnit" dispName="$$19160$$Unit" VarType="string">Military</Param>
    <Param name="PlayerID" dispName="$$22534$$Fake Player" VarType="player">0</Param>
    <Command>trQuestVarSet("%QVName%", trPlayerUnitCountSpecific(%PlayerID%, "%ProtoUnit%"));</Command>
    </Effect>

    Let's say I want each soldier to earn 2 gold pieces every 5 seconds. To do this, I just multiply the amount of soldiers by two, using quest var modify. However, remember that the "wages" quest var needs to be a negative value, so I multiply it by minus 2. I modify the simple wages trigger I created earlier:
    LOOPING, ACTIVE
    timer 5 seconds
    -->
    QV Set Unit count by type: QV "wages", player 1, military units only.
    Quest Var Modify: "wages" * -2
    QV Grant Resources: player 1, Resource gold, Amount QV "wages".

    And there we are!
  • Do you know the "slippery slope"? It means that once a player is ahead of the rest, he'll remain ahead of the rest forever. To avoid this, just make the wages increase quadratically with the amount of soldiers. Multiply it with itself! However, the value will be extremely high then. So you have to divide it by some numer again. Then you get this:
    LOOPING, ACTIVE
    timer 5 seconds
    -->
    QV Set Unit count by type: QV "wages", player 1, military units only.
    Quest Var Modify 2: "wages" * "wages"
    Quest Var Modify: "wages" / -100
    QV Grant Resources: player 1, Resource gold, Amount QV "wages".

    What does the "-100" mean? It means that when I have the square root of 100 soldiers, each soldier costs 1 gold. Let's see if this it true: the square root of 100 is 10. Say I have 10 soldiers, the wages are then 10*10/-100 = 100/-100 = -1. It's true!
    Let's see what this means for gameplay. Imagine I have 1 unit, the wages are then 1*1/-100 = -0.01 gold - not much. With 20 units, the wages are 20*20/-100 = -4 gold. Now imagine I have 50 units, the wages are then 50*50/-100 = 2500/-100 = -25 gold. That's quite a lot compared to 0.01 gold for 1 unit. Because it increases quadratically, the more soldiers you have, the more each soldier costs!
  • Now, of course something needs to happen when you run out of gold. What about a looping trigger damaging all soldiers in the area by a small amount? Or using change units in area to convert all your soldiers to mother nature?

    So with only one trigger, you have created a lovely wages system, which can even solve the slippery slope! All clear?

    [This message has been edited by Archaeopterix (edited 10-07-2006 @ 02:57 PM).]

  • Replies:
    posted 19 September 2006 09:53 AM EDT (US)     1 / 26  
    Nice ideas, Arch.

    Hope to see the rest soon.


    Yes, periods and smileys are the same for me
    No matter what you say
    posted 19 September 2006 10:31 AM EDT (US)     2 / 26  
    This is the area that shows promise in AoM scenarios: logical triggerwork. Arch, you've mastered it:P
    posted 19 September 2006 10:37 AM EDT (US)     3 / 26  
    Looks indeed very interesting Archaeopterix

    some kind of beserker mode can also be created with this ( so when the team mates are all togehter and get into a fight frenzy)

    Maybe some visual/ sound effects can also be added to that trigger set up..... something like the moral boost arkantos has

    LoL AoM has just too many things to use and explore....and there is just too little time

    Keep up the great work Archaeopterix

    Best regards,
    The Vandhaal


    BEST REGARDS,
    THE VANDHAAL

    El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas | Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.
    HG moderators if you feel paranoid then translate the above here
    More: ((( THE VANDHAAL WEBSITE)))(((STEAM VANDHAAL AOM EE COLLECTION)))(((VANDHAAL BLOG)))
    [This message has been edited by The Vandhaal (edited 12-31-2999 @ 23:59 PM).]
    posted 19 September 2006 02:24 PM EDT (US)     4 / 26  
    *Movement Ideas

    Already being used by... me. Youre in tall grass, BOOM, you go slow. On a road, BOOM, you go faster. and so on, ofcourse.

    *Sight Ideas

    Same as above. Your little treasure hunt game is a big help.


    '~SwordStorm's Accomplishments~'
    '~The Vandhaal's Monkey Boy[?]~'
    '~Owner of Papaya's 3,333rd Post~'
    '~Owner of 666 post in Communitity RPG~'
    '~Owner of 99,999 post in Scenario Discussion~'
    '~Owner of Three Signatures in PF's Signature~'
    posted 19 September 2006 08:42 PM EDT (US)     5 / 26  
    =O I was using the movement ideas also!!

    I'm making a scenario with a lot of marsh.. in the more boggy and dense areas the units move slower.


    Archaeopterix, this is amazing. Great Ideas shown.
    Very complex.. I can't wait to see them in action.
    One question: Depending on the rate that skills are forgotten, it will be impossible to max out all skills.
    People will have to choose what they prefer, and will have to sacrifice strength in other skills as a result.

    You could even use these idea's without a skills system. As in, if you place a cinematic block at the tip of a mountain and have the LOS increase as you get higher, and decrease as you go lower.

    Kinda makes you wonder just how complex the game can become.

    I'm dissapointed we got another Pretty Town Competition instead of a trigger-expertise competition, because we could have really seen some great new stuff like this.


    -[Hello..
    posted 20 September 2006 00:11 AM EDT (US)     6 / 26  
    the potential of this game through triggers certainly seems under utilized, especially considering how long it's been out
    posted 20 September 2006 04:24 AM EDT (US)     7 / 26  
    Pretty nice Ancient Wings, what can I say it's usual for you to be so original.

    How about other ideaw for this -multiplayer game:
    + Make one of the players a "traitor", he can use chat to become enemy to anyone of the other players he wishes, while the rest become neutral to some other players, so they lose LOS for the battle. So his personal goal could be to take out some of the other players.

    + Assign some specific goals to specific players, like getting relics, killing monsters, or having a side quest that needs the help of the other players to be accomplished.

    + specific heroes-players, having advantages in certain areas of knowledge (i.e. becoming better at them faster than the others). Also, in the same context, specific heroes having specific skills, like more damage vs specific units, etc.

    ehmmm, that's all I guess...

    regards


    the Elder
    "imagination is more important than knowledge."
    Albert Einstein
    posted 20 September 2006 07:48 AM EDT (US)     8 / 26  
    Great, this was what I was hoping for Discussion, even more ideas!

    Quote:

    One question: Depending on the rate that skills are forgotten, it will be impossible to max out all skills.
    People will have to choose what they prefer, and will have to sacrifice strength in other skills as a result.


    I see no question mark, but yes, indeed, that is very possible and would make for the most interesting gameplay. Balancing the game would be a matter of adjusting forget and learn rates.

    Quote:

    As in, if you place a cinematic block at the tip of a mountain and have the LOS increase as you get higher, and decrease as you go lower.


    Actually, this has been done in my scenario Treasure Hunt As you climb onto the fortress, your LOS and range increase pseudo-gradually (in three stages). In that same scenario I also created an LOS reduction in extremely foggy swamp areas, and neutral ships that everyone can use.

    And what about the monkey bombs and landmines (relics in Heroines). Unfortunately I am only able to list things found in my own scenarios. The possibilities are countless when you use your brains.

    posted 21 September 2006 07:37 PM EDT (US)     9 / 26  
    I have been using similar triggers to fuel my new scenario 'The Chronicles of Damanask' Marshes, Forests and the like all affect unit stats. One idea i like is the learning aspect of this idea, I might have to put it to the test =p.

    One idea i like is changing the lighting when in certain areas, like making it darker when you go into a canyon.

    Anyway, great ideas, I hope to see them in future scenarios!


    This is what I do in my free time.
    I'm definitly NOT part of AS.
    Current Project: 'The Chronicles of Damanask'
    Firebert010@yahoo.com
    posted 21 September 2006 07:48 PM EDT (US)     10 / 26  
    Now I just have to find out where to get all of these nice little QV triggers... I thnk they came with reyk's editor, but I couldn't install them for some reason :/

    Very nice ideas, by the by...


    Something something a quarter of a century old.
    posted 22 September 2006 04:21 AM EDT (US)     11 / 26  
    Wow, people are going to be making more guides than me at this rate!

    The boy with the mad imagination
    Prepare for the ultimate duel!
    Learn to use all my triggers and what you can do with them. Visit here.
    Find out and download the transform trigger here.
    Play some minigames I have created outside AOM including some 3D games here.
    posted 23 September 2006 09:47 AM EDT (US)     12 / 26  
    Sorry, I most have unconciously stolen that thought from "Treasure Hunt"

    =P

    Some good thinking in that scenario, pity ESO is crowded with escapes, doom lords, and anything else newbs can play.


    -[Hello..
    posted 23 September 2006 09:50 PM EDT (US)     13 / 26  
    *Gag*

    I just ransacked the Halls of Valhalla, and I come here and hear about monkey bombs...

    I like these forums...


    This is what I do in my free time.
    I'm definitly NOT part of AS.
    Current Project: 'The Chronicles of Damanask'
    Firebert010@yahoo.com
    posted 06 October 2006 06:19 AM EDT (US)     14 / 26  
    I have updated the main post with a wages system. However, there's also something else I want to share with you:

    I've been working on an awesome singleplayer scenario the past few days. It is inspired by Anastasoulis great scenario "The Horde". Working title:

    Nomads

    The gameplay is as follows. You're a Norse nomad tribe, and you start with a few norse villagers, a few ulfsarks, two ox carts, a roc called "the holy coitus bird", and two greek villagers called "adam" and "eve". You're REALLY a nomad tribe, so no bloody static buildings, and only a limited resource storage capacity. Here's a snippit of the features:

  • To store resources and population, you need ox carts. Each ox cart supports 20 population, and can store 200 wood, 100 food and 100 gold. If you are gathering either resource while all your limited storage in the ox carts is full (e.g. when you have 400 wood, 2 ox carts of 200 wood each, and still gathering wood), any extra resource gathered will just not be added to your resources.
  • You build ox carts with your Ulfsarks. Task an Ulfsark to build a house, and when it's completed it instantly turns into an ox cart plus three villagers. A house, or ox cart, costs 200 wood, has a very long build time, and the build limit is 1, so you can only build one at a time.
  • The only other thing your ulfsarks can build, besides ox carts, are towers, which turn into siege towers with added pierce attack when completed. So even your towers are movable.
  • Besides houses (ox carts) and towers (siege towers), your ulfsarks and villagers cannot build anything. No farms, no temples, longhouses, walls - nothing.
  • So, you get three free villagers with each ox cart you build. There is, however, also a way to create additional villagers. Put Adam and Eve in the Holy Coitus Bird and every 15 seconds a villager will be created underneath them. Of course, during sex the roc cannot fly, so it is risky business.
  • You can, of course, change your villagers into ulfsarks whenever you wish. This costs 10 gold and is irreversible.
  • Of course, your units eat. So every few seconds a certain amount of food, depending on your population, is substracted. And since you cannot build farms, you have to keep moving around the map to look for new deer herds. When your food amount hits zero, all your units are slowly more and more damaged, and a message pops up "Your loyal servants are starving!".
  • It would be a bit boring if all you could control had been ulfsarks and villagers. There is a way to create different soldiers: buy weapons or horses at allied towns on the map, steal axes from a lumber camp, etcetera. Buying weapons and horses of course costs gold, stealing axes is free You can 'buy a horse' by sending one or more ulfsarks to a stable in some town, and then a choice dialog will pop up: "Do you want to train XXXX ulfsarks to [soldier type here], for XXXX gold? YES/NO", the XXXX being replaced by quest var values. Each town or location on the map provides different types of weapons. And since you have to move around the map looking for food, your army will consist of many types of soldiers.
  • The goal is - probably, though plans may change - to kill all your enemies. Your enemies are no nomads, they just have regular towns and are AI controlled - just the regular supremacy AI. This makes the difficulty easily customisable, and will make each game different. Plus it reduces the amount of triggers required
  • Mother nature is very elastic, so any herd of animals killed by you will eventually be reborn. This takes some time though, but it guarantees that you can keep walking around the map forever, without starving. (Of course gold is running out eventually...)

    That's basically it. I have all these things fully operating, and I've playtested it versus Titan AI: Boyz n girlz, the gameplay is truly great and renewing. You really feel like a nomad, constantly on the move.

    I'll keep you up to date. I think I'll finish this scen.

    [This message has been edited by Archaeopterix (edited 10-06-2006 @ 07:11 AM).]

  • posted 06 October 2006 07:06 AM EDT (US)     15 / 26  
    That's a nice idea! sounds great really creative and it sounds fun, it would cool if you could play it against humans too, but some triggers which you used cause syncs in MP don't they?

    Honourary Mention in the 2006 Pretty Town Contest
    A Unique Age of Mythology Experience:
    A Trip to Talos
    It's f*cking awesome
    posted 06 October 2006 07:09 AM EDT (US)     16 / 26  
    It can easily be done for a MP scen as well. However, I've had enough of ESO noobs. Plus, it's about time I released a SP scen.
    posted 06 October 2006 08:46 AM EDT (US)     17 / 26  
    well it still is fun to play against friends etc.

    Honourary Mention in the 2006 Pretty Town Contest
    A Unique Age of Mythology Experience:
    A Trip to Talos
    It's f*cking awesome
    posted 06 October 2006 12:32 PM EDT (US)     18 / 26  
    Very intresting, once again.

    Yes, periods and smileys are the same for me
    No matter what you say
    posted 07 October 2006 03:21 AM EDT (US)     19 / 26  
    Nooo, make it multiplayer, I don't play singleplayer scenarios.

    The boy with the mad imagination
    Prepare for the ultimate duel!
    Learn to use all my triggers and what you can do with them. Visit here.
    Find out and download the transform trigger here.
    Play some minigames I have created outside AOM including some 3D games here.
    posted 07 October 2006 06:00 AM EDT (US)     20 / 26  
    I'd prefer it single player. It sounds amazing, and I can never get my ESO to work.


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    posted 07 October 2006 12:04 PM EDT (US)     21 / 26  
    Single player is probably safer.. It's been proven time and time again that newbs cannot play scenario's with slight complexity.

    Archaepterix, I love your work. I cannot wait for you to release this.


    -[Hello..
    posted 07 October 2006 01:35 PM EDT (US)     22 / 26  
    Archaeopterix, ive never seen better scenario edting. But i do have one suggestion: Is it possible to make it so that you gain gold or wood from destroyed enemy buildings? Kinda like sacking an enemy town when your low on resources?

    ERROR 666: Armaggedon detected. Please re-start universe and try again.
    posted 07 October 2006 01:45 PM EDT (US)     23 / 26  
    urrm, question thread... butyou could set it to do that with specific buildings easily, but if you mean any building even if it's been buit once the game starts... I have no idea.


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    posted 07 October 2006 02:26 PM EDT (US)     24 / 26  
    For any (non-specific) building, make it so it works as a kill counter, but only for buildings instead of units. Search the forum for a guide by Oddy or Villi concerning this.
    posted 07 October 2006 02:53 PM EDT (US)     25 / 26  
    VERY nice scenario there, Arch, I like it alot
    Regrettably, you DO have a point that the n00b population on ESO is ridiculous, and yes, very basic scenarios have to be made for them... Too bad you couldn't make this multiplayer :|
    We need to find a way to make a new type of scenario that is fun for experts, but easy for the, uh, not-so-bright ESO population to understand...

    And I read the wages thing, brilliant work there! Except that 20 * 20 is 400, so the wages are 4, not 2 :P


    Something something a quarter of a century old.
    posted 07 October 2006 02:57 PM EDT (US)     26 / 26  
    Oh, right, thanks Expect some screenshots of the map design soon. On the other hand, I do have an important test on monday... so not too soon
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