It is a 20% boost.

Of course, it's a dumb idea to measure strength by what a civ has in Mythic with all techs researched, because that's not very realistic, particularly as many games don't even get to Mythic. It's more pratical to measure economic capacity by what you can get easily and realistically - so, Thor's dwarf bonus or Odin's hunting bonus would be more significant, as would a GP like Rain.

If I'm debating which god to choose, Skadi's throwing axe upgrade and frost GP are far more likely to change the outcome of the game for me.

Of course, as a Thor player I find that having 20 farms and paying 200food+20favour, solves my food problem in the game, but to max out you need to be using vils not dwarves.
As for the econ being better than Eggy, don't forget that despite Eggy vils gathering slower, with empowerement they end up gathering faster, so with Skadi Thor's farmers can just farm as fast as empowered Egyptians.

Being Norse and living in a frozen land, of course it's obvious that some mythology would develope that'd give you what you needed for farming, and it's got nothing to do with being a raider race.

Like TheShadowDawn wrote, the +20% on farming, isn't why you pick Skadi, but Frost and the bonus to the TA is.

regards

Plus, with empowerment you have that 20% increase as previously stated, and 2 more food for ever 10 resource drop off, and 3 for every 15 resources dropped off. So, while Thor with winter harvest may be gathering 10% quicker with farming upgrade, an eggy can be raking in extra free food. With enough farms, yuo could get MORE food by empowering with the same amount of time elapsed

Quoted from Newbe:

Thor's dwarves aren't really cheaper than Ra's... hard to compare the two concerning that.

Quoted from Newbe:

As far as I know, it is 10% each, although I hear that Sacred Cats might be partially malfunctioning until you also have irrigation.

Quoted from Newbe:

What about being Isis and getting Book of Thoth on top of Bast's econ upgrades? Remember that Winter Harvest only improves farming. Bast improves wood and farming, and Thoth improves everything!! You can also consider the fact that Isis pays less for a lot of upgrades as a major economic bonus.

It is like people saying that a line upgrade that improves cavalry hp by 20% is good, but Dionysus' Baccanalia is not, because it provides only 5% more hp. However, since these 5% affect all your units, even myth units, even titans, they actually give you a far higher overall hp boost than a single line upgrade for only a fraction of your army.

Quoted from Anastasoulis:

I think all three of these traits are of similar importance. Winter Harvest is a very good bonus and can make the difference. I would not go as far as saying that you research Skadi only for Winter Harvest or only for the Frost power, not like Bragi who people only research for Laming Weapons and perhaps Swine Array, considering the rest of him a rather worthless add-on.

Quoted from Kang_the_Mad:

You are making the mistake to factor in the same thing twice. The 2 more food per drop off is the 20% increase! The actual gathering speed is not increased by empowerment.

Hmm, I never knew that 20% increase was just the free reources. THen again, I never, ever play eggy because I suck with them. Norse is the only civ I'm good with :|

Going skadi just for the tech is bad. If your eco is doing that bad, upgrade farming asap and re-adjust villies. Most cases Bragi>skadi

Yeah okay, thanks for pointing that book of troth thing out. That's no help to Ra though.

Just so that some people can understand where I'm coming from, I always play to win in the end. That's why I choose Ra a long time ago, I didn't realize that ISIS or Set would have a better econ in the end cause of book of Troth.

I believe it's difficult to take a player down if they don't get overly agressive, defend well and build there game up by getting econ upgrades etc. It's hard to make a mistake when you just protect your resources and fight under your own tower fire. (My theory to this game at least)

With that in mind....

Skadi, is an heroic age god, not a mythic age god. So, I suppose Norse has the advantage over Egypt in general in Heoric because of this alone. (There are other factors, like having map control early as well etc.)

It looks to me, like Thor has a better endgame then Ra because of Skadi, armory techs, and dwarves. Also that Isis and Set would be stronger in the end, thx to Troth. Isis the +3 pop for each TC, and Set the +10 Citadel + book of troth.

So, would it not be viable for a Thor player to just turtle or boom? Not rush, not even fight much, just play to take 3 TC'S and get all the techs, and then win in the end? At least vs Ra? or Greek? Since Thor has at least an equivilant econ in Mythic when everything is said and done, as well as uber armory techs?

I probably shouldn't play Ra anymore, it doesn't suit my win it in the end style / strat.

Isis clearly has a stronger economy

Am I wrong with any of these assumptions?

Ahh, I looked it up on the forums in case anyone was interested. Bast's upgrades have been fixed.

They both give about 5% improvement a piece and Book of Troth voids them completely.

It means that bast is a completely useless god for Isis, once you get to mythic except for the ability to create sphinx, which I assume you would rather create Scorpion Men or Phoenixs.

Never the less, Isis still owns Ra even excluding Basts econ upgrades.

But still Ra can get 2 pharohs +20%
15% for the second pharoh
+5% for the original pharoh

ra can empower gold, and food with priest + 20%
ra can keep basts improvements + 12%

so if you total the numbers you get a 52% (If you don't use the market)

Isis, has book of Troth which gives 20% food + 20% gold + 20% wood. Totaling 60%

Thus
Isis has an 8% stronger economy in the end game.

If no gold is present on the map, and the markets are used to create gold, Ra is on top. (This almost never happens)

Isis is better in every other regard. (Probably everyone already knew this)

I never fully came to appreciate how crappy how crappy Ra is

20% increase would be pretty insane.

It is not the eco usually, it are the units/buildings.

20 damage towers that cost 200 gold, mercs that absolutely own, elephants.. Catapults aka V4..

So you mean that book of thoth negates bast's upgrades?

Newbe,

I believe you have a totally wrong assessment of main god quality. You are making the mistake to set the quality of a main god equal to his economic strength, factoring in all economic bonuses that he can obtain by choosing the appropiate minor gods.

Your mentioning of Thor's armory upgrades was already a first hint towards how wrong this is. There is a lot more to a god than sheer economic power. The right special upgrade for a unit, or general access to certain unit types, can easily compensate for the enemy gathering a resource 10% faster (and it isn't even 10%, because it is 10% based on the default gathering rate, but when you already have the regular econ ups, then another 10% of the base rate is lower than 10% of your current rate would be).

From what you are saying, every Isis that does not pick Thoth for mythic age is a fool. But that is wrong. Isis has a choice here, with both mythic age gods being viable (depending on strategy and game situation). Powerful upgrades like Horus spears or Baldr's Sons of Sleipnir can easily compensate for a minor gathering edge that the enemy has.

You can compare gathering rates for the statistics, but you cannot deduct who the best god is from that.

Quoted from Newbe:

In fact that is pretty much the easiest way to make mistakes! It is how all newbies start this game. They fortify their position, advance to mythic age, get all upgrades, and then consider an attack.

But the grave mistake in this approach lies in the fact that you allow your opponent to gain control over the whole map while you are focussing on protecting yourself. You fortify the gold mine that you are mining at, your enemy takes over all other mines and starves you once your mine is done. You secure your home TC, your enemy takes over all the other TCs. If your opponent has only one TC more than you do, then that is +20 pop for him and -20 pop for you, meaning a 40 pop difference! That is an army! That alone allows him to have a complete army on top of his regular army that is of equal size to yours.

You need to play aggressive in this game in order to win on a higher level. But expansion is also a form of aggression in that it forces the opponent to do something about it. If you just pick a defensive and economically strong race and turtle yourself to mythic age, you will find yourself cornered in the small part of the map that is covered by your fortifications. You will find yourself outnumbered by a huge pop advantage. You will find yourself unaware what is going on on the map, even if you scouted it early in the game, because your opponent is controlling all of it and may even have spammed random walls just to make sure his units can quickly move everywhere and yours cannot. And of course you will find yourself unable to expand to any remote resource (such as a gold mine), because that would mean you leaving the security of your entrenchment, and since he invested the money in troops, upgrades, and TCs that you spent on fortifications, you stand no chance to hold your ground at a remote resource.

In this situation, he might even decide to let you dig out your titan. He knows that he will be able to kill it without problems due to his massive map domination.

Quoted from Newbe:

I have learnt never to trust the forums when it comes to exact statistics. What you have read may or may not be true. I remember having seen an affirmation confirmed by multiple people, and still it was wrong when I tested it myself in the editor (they probably just confirmed it because they had already read it before, never ever verifying it themselves). So what you have read may or may not be true. If it is important to you, I can only urge you to test it yourself, making a test map in the editor and precisely measuring gathering rates with the various economic upgrades.

Quoted from Newbe:

As far as I know it is only 10% per resource, but this is another unverified piece of information. I do not know where you got your 20% from, and whose source is correct. Once more a real test might pay off here.

Opps, I don't know what I was thinking. 20% book of troth, it's not 20%!

The earlier forums say it's only 10% all around econ upgrade. (I might test this at some point and post it back on the forum)

The forums here say that Sacred cats gives a base 10% bonus to farming, but because of the changed animation etc... it's only about 7% Villagers walk more when planting or seeding the farms.

When I started playing this game before I retired and recently came back, it used to be about 3%.

There are posts, that say the book of thoth completely negates basts econ upgrades.

D&P is right about all that stuff though, I don't know how to use the editor well enough to confirm it. I'd confirm this in single player vs an easy computer. But I don't care enough to at this moment in time.

I mostly use the forum as a source of information and assume people don't spam incorrect stuff here. My apologee's for the inaccuracy about 20% book of thoth upgrade.

That changes everything again.

When I say stay back and wait for your opponent, I mean take control of 3 TC's and fight for an equal share of the gold mines.

I'll learn in time if I'm wrong, I hope.

Quote:

So it's not 20%. What is it!!?

10%. Like all the statistics sheets say. (I have not verified it, but now that Newbe has withdrawn his 20% theory, it is very likely that the 10% that are published everywhere are correct.)

Quoted from Newbe:

But that is a contradiction. Your opponent will attack your TCs. He will attack your remote resource gathering. And you will not always be able to make sure that he is not successful with that. This means that you will lose some vills here and a TC there all through the game.

Your opponent, however, will never ever lose a TC or take any economic damage, for the simple reason that you are "staying back" instead of attacking him. In the end, he will have the stronger economy and probably hit mythic faster, although (or rather: because) he attacked all the time and you did not.

As long as you know when to run, attacking the enemy economy is always stronger than sitting at home and letting your opponent choose the place of the battle.

Quote:

TC's add +15 pop, right?

Not if you fortify it.

Ah right it's been a long time since I played aot >.<

Winter harvest does indeed give a nice gathering boost to the norse economy. As a modder, I've learned not to trust "ordinary" forumers on these matters, and instead I look straight in the data files. In "techtreex" (document that controls tech info for the xpack) for winter harvest we find:

<tech name="Winter Harvest" type="Normal">
<dbid>120</dbid>
<displaynameid>11069</displaynameid>
<cost resourcetype="Food">200.0000</cost>
<cost resourcetype="Favor">20.0000</cost>
<researchpoints>40.0000</researchpoints>
<status>OBTAINABLE</status>
<icon>improvement bountiful harvest icon</icon>
<rollovertextid>10669</rollovertextid>
<buttonpos row="2" column="0"></buttonpos>
<prereqs>
<techstatus status="Active">Age 3 Skadi</techstatus>
</prereqs>
<effects>
<effect type="TextOutput">11297</effect>
<effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.20" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Farm" relativity="BasePercent">
<target type="ProtoUnit">AbstractVillager</target>
</effect>
</effects>
</tech>

So the boost is 20%. I don't think I ever mentioned this, but eggies have a serious economic disadvantage over other cultures. We all know about the 10% slower deal, but also all economic improvements improve their workers by a puny 1%, with the exception of plow and unique god techs. Here's the stats for sacred cats:

<tech name="Sacred Cats" type="Normal">
<dbid>272</dbid>
<displaynameid>11114</displaynameid>
<cost resourcetype="Gold">110.0000</cost>
<cost resourcetype="Favor">10.0000</cost>
<researchpoints>30.0000</researchpoints>
<status>OBTAINABLE</status>
<icon>improvement sacred cats icon</icon>
<rollovertextid>10712</rollovertextid>
<buttonpos row="2" column="1"></buttonpos>
<prereqs>
<techstatus status="Active">Age 2 Bast</techstatus>
</prereqs>
<effects>
<effect type="TextOutput">11306</effect>
<effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.10" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Farm" relativity="BasePercent">
<target type="ProtoUnit">AbstractVillager</target>
</effect>
</effects>
</tech>

The improvement here is 10%, not 3 or 7. Unless there is truth in claiming that the villagers walk around more, while gathering, with this tech researched, which would set back the overall output. The Bast wood cutting tech also gives 10%, and considering woodcutters don't wander around as the gather, to say that this gives a 3 or 5% boost is without merit.

<tech name="Adze of Wepwawet" type="Normal">
<dbid>585</dbid>
<displaynameid>18193</displaynameid>
<cost resourcetype="Gold">100.0000</cost>
<cost resourcetype="Favor">10.0000</cost>
<researchpoints>30.0000</researchpoints>
<status>OBTAINABLE</status>
<icon>Improvement Adze of Wepwawet Icon</icon>
<rollovertextid>18194</rollovertextid>
<prereqs>
<techstatus status="Active">Age 2 Bast</techstatus>
</prereqs>
<effects>
<effect type="TextOutput">18192</effect>
<effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.10" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Wood" relativity="BasePercent">
<target type="ProtoUnit">AbstractVillager</target>
</effect>
<effect type="Data" action="HandAttack" amount="5.00" subtype="DamageBonus" unittype="Tree" relativity="Absolute">
<target type="ProtoUnit">AbstractVillager</target>
</effect>
</effects>
</tech>

Also, I've seen [refering to "The Book of thoth" tech]:

Quote:

Quote:

Yeah, it's 10%. But notice that, in the case of food gathering, only farms are improved.

<tech name="Book of Thoth" type="Normal">
<dbid>395</dbid>
<displaynameid>11068</displaynameid>
<cost resourcetype="Wood">400.0000</cost>
<cost resourcetype="Favor">30.0000</cost>
<researchpoints>40.0000</researchpoints>
<status>OBTAINABLE</status>
<icon>improvement book of thoth icon</icon>
<rollovertextid>10668</rollovertextid>
<buttonpos row="2" column="2"></buttonpos>
<prereqs>
<techstatus status="Active">Age 4 Thoth</techstatus>
</prereqs>
<effects>
<effect type="TextOutput">11359</effect>
<effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.10" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Farm" relativity="BasePercent">
<target type="ProtoUnit">Villager Egyptian</target>
</effect>
<effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.10" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Wood" relativity="BasePercent">
<target type="ProtoUnit">Villager Egyptian</target>
</effect>
<effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.10" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Gold" relativity="BasePercent">
<target type="ProtoUnit">Villager Egyptian</target>
</effect>
</effects>
</tech>

Quote:

Looks like it may be, seeing as the improvement is 20%. Fairly undeniably, eggies have an illegitamate penalty when it comes to thier economy. Not only do other cultures recieve better percentage upgrades from economy techs, but also, eggie villies start with -10% base gathering rates, which means that even if eggie villies would get the same improvement in percentage, they would still be being upgraded by less.

And to top that off, when other civs get extra upgrades like winter harvest, eggies take another blow to the head. Isis 10% tech reduction costs and Ra's 15% preist empower bonuses help a little, but still don't even the stats. Knowing this, it's funny how many people can claim that eggies are OP when in fact, they have a curse that follows them the whole game and requires a better (comparitivly speaking) player to overcome.

[This message has been edited by Magnum Pi (edited 06-24-2006 @ 08:08 PM).]

A great percentage in economy doesn't help you when war elephants, desert wind camels and Son of Osiris comes down. Eggies own militarily as well

Magnum Pi, it is not a viable approach to try and derive exact statistics from the game data files. That is what Pete's statistics page on magneticpole also does, and as the consequence, it is second in accuracy to xentelian's sheets which are handmade but more accurate. Then again, it would be a great step forward if all the players here studies at least Pete's page instead of asking for game data in the forums that can be read there or being surprised about details that are commonly known and documented.

Just to give you an example: When the game came out, Odin's +10% hunting bonus did not exist. It was supposed to exist, and it was in the raw game data files from which you quoted, but it had no effect. ES was surprised about this themselves, and as far as I remember, it was due to a rounding inaccuracy. In a patch they increased the bonus in the game data files to 20%, causing Odin to get the actually desired +10% on hunting.

There are other deviances from the game data files to what actually happens in the game. Looking in the files is the lazy way, and it sure is better than nothing, but if you want to know something for sure, you need to test it, and there is no comfortable alternative that leads to the same results.

Quote:

Are you sure? After all, the game data gives us exact statistics, where as editor test and what not are imprecise and easily errored. (I.e. if doing a timed gathering test in the editor, being off by a quarter of a second could give a misleading/inaccurate result.) Btw, (not intended to sound antagonistic) but if xentelian's data is more accurate, could you link to it, so I can see it?

Quote:

This stuck me as odd, probably because I'm used to looking in the data files for info, but interestingly, in the techtreex under "age 1 odin" we find as one of the effects:

<effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.20" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Huntable" relativity="BasePercent">
<target type="ProtoUnit">AbstractVillager</target>
</effect>

So, according to the techtree, the bonus should be 20%. Unfortunatly, I can't believe you just yet, no offence . The problem with what you are saying is that 10% is one the most common upgrade percentages found in techtreex, effects that are known to work properly.

I.e. the medium, heavy, and champion military upgrade lines all improve the attack and hitpoints of the effected units by 10% and 10% is what appears in the techtreex for these techs. Also, economic improvements, which I'm sure we would all agree DO improve gather rates, also have 10% coded in their techtree stats.

If you said about Odin was true, then medium, heavy, champion, and econ upgrades should have no effect. But they do. Now that I think about this, if rounding values really is a part of techtreex, then why would "odd" (as in unorthodox) values be present as well, for example plow improves eggie farmers by 12% (a value of 1.12 with a relativity of BasePercent).

I just can't see you could be right regarding this issue. Unless rounding were only applied to certain attributes in the techtreex, but not only is that implausible, it also wouldn't explain why econ upgrades work. My guess regarding, the Odin hunting deal is that Odin did infact have the bonus, but it was so small or insignificant, that it got raised to 20% with a later patch. That is probably strange to think, but if correct, it would explain the rest of the techtree pretty well.

Quote:

I'm not so convinced. So far, I haven't noticed any inconsisencies with what happens in the game to what is stated in the data files. (Note my ealier example of the medium, heavy and champion military upgrades, in which exact values can be measured in-game and in-data.) I.e, When I see tech Y improve unit X's attack by Z percent, I usually will later check in techtreex and find tech Y to indeed be set to improve unit X's attack by Z percent.

You said looking in the data files is "the lazy way," but (again, not to sound antagonistic) why should we think that an editor/in game test would do better? In the case of gather rates, the numbers are very unusual for practical purposes (for example .67, .55, 2.34, etc.) thus, doing a timed gathering test woulg give invalid/misleading results if you mis count the time by even something so small as half a second. The data files appear to be the reliable method to know these things, not the lazy method.

Edit: I've been pondering this more since I read Death's reply, and one more possible explanation for the discrepency regarding what he heard about Odin, and what the rest of the techtree acually suggests, came to me. DeathAndPain said that when the game was first released Odin's bonus was set to 10%, but did not take effect. Realize that that was in original AoM, not TT. Thus, the file would be techtree, not techtreex.

I speculate that since TT, any rounding that may have been used in AoM data files may have been undone. But when ES made techtreex, they simply copied the techs already listed in techtree, consequently, in going from techtree to techtreex, Odin inadvertantly got his bonus raised fro 10 to 20 percent. If techtree.xmb is still inside of data(2).bar, someone could extract it and test this.

[This message has been edited by Magnum Pi (edited 06-24-2006 @ 10:25 PM).]

While, not being an first hand expert on any of these issues and I acknowledge that I am pulling my knowledge from previous posts here on the site.

However,
I would like to point out, that the reason Bast's upgrade does not give a full 10% is supposed to be or reported to be, because the villagers don't farm as often when you get the upgrade. It now takes them longer to seed the farms etc.... Which is why the upgrade does not give a full 10% improvement.

So it may improve the base gather rate 10%, but now, your villagers will only be farming 93% of the time, when before they were farming 96% of the time (Numbers are made up), but the concept is not.

I believe this is why DeathAndPain encourages us to actually do real tests in game.

I considered that too, that's why I added in my original post:

Quoted from my original reply:

The same thing applies to wood gathering as hunting, villies don't move around as they gather. That's why I was questioning his remark about Odin's hunting bonus. Sacred cats does improve villager gather rates by 10% and doesn't make villagers gather less often, this proposal sounded strange to me at first, but I was open to the possibility that it did, so I tested it, just to be sure.

Btw, I just finished from doing an editor test, and yes, I took very precise care to observe the gather rates, be sure that no other factors/upgrades were affecting the workers, and took time measures as accurately as I possibly could, and my original results are valid: Winter Harvest does improve workers by 20%.

It's getting late here and my dad is telling me to go to bed now, so I'll all the details as soon I get the chance, but... techtreex is holding true to reputation I've given it !

One more thing, I did manage to get the original techtree (not x) out of data (not 2).bar, so as to get the original AoM data w/o TT. And Odin's bonus is set at 20%, but alas, the other data also appears the same as in protox. It's looking like DeathAndPain's "techtree rounding" theory is taken from a false source.

[This message has been edited by Magnum Pi (edited 09-01-2006 @ 09:49 PM).]

Quote:

Thor's Pigsticker is also reported at 20% in the data. It only provides a 10% increase, however. Both of the abilities were bugged, when the game was first released. Even though both were listed as a 10% increase in the date, they provided no increase in the game. I don't know what the explanation for it was, but I do know it was there, and it effected both Pigsticker and Odin's God bonus.

The fix was to change the listed bonus increase from 10% to 20% in the game files. The result was the intended 10% increase in game.

Can be tested and verified.

I should mention that the original 10% increase is not less simply because of walk time or other animations.

You could also just ask me.

Quote:

Once again, I'm not convinced just yet. As I state in my other replies, the techtree data has never let me down before and I've been working with it as an active modder for almost two years now. There's no reason to believe that when techtreex says 10%, the acual results would be less. If Thor's tech reaaly is set to 20%, then I could easily test my theory which states that whatever appears in the techtree code will be the effect that takes place in game.

I think the Odin/Thor's 10% hunting bonuses not taking effect and only taking effect once the stats were increased, is a widely circulated, but false, urban myth. My original theory that the bonus was there but that it was so marginal it got increased is looking more and more plausible.

Quote:

I plan to . I conducted some tests regarding Winter Harvest last night and my proposals are holding out so far. Whatever appears in techtreex is what acually happens in game. I could do the same to Odin/Thor's hunting bonus as well and we could pit your's & Death's theory against mine . The Scientific Method all the way!

(In case you're wondering the reason I didn't post my test results on Winter Harvest is only because I have to leave soon, I'll come back later and I will do that, I'll also remember to take screenies.)

Quote:

Yes, it should be made clear that we want to see if the villagers are gathering at the upgraded rate (be it 10 or 20%), we are not testing wheather some external force (such as walk distance) can influence the output of a task, that's a given. This problem can also be taken care of too. Most gathering animations do not have a wastful walking animation that tags along with them (i.e. hunting and wood cutting) the only walking that would be done is to/from the dropsite, but just so we can see if the percentage really does take affect by the amount it should, we can add "<flag>GatherDirectToPlayer</flag>" into the villagers' proto code to eliminate dropsites.

I look forward to conducting these tests .

Edit: OMG, I just reconducted my tests, being sure to take numerous screenshots for each critical step, and the game didn't save a single one of them! (I was sure to look in C:My documents\My Games\Age of Mythology\Screenshots) My screenshots folder is totally empty! Grr!

I'll try to play my scenario again though without using the "play test" option, and see if I can get sceenshots.

Edit Again: Nothing. My dumb computer just will not take screenshots. Atleast for AoM, in AoE3 and AoK I can take screenshots as freely as I want. Anyway, I'll just tell you that Odin, Thor's tech and Winter Harvest do improve rates by 20% and techtreex is completely accurate. Nevermind that, got it to work now .

[This message has been edited by Magnum Pi (edited 09-01-2006 @ 10:01 PM).]

Quoted from i r noob:

Why would anybody ever want to do that?

Magnum Pi, I do not know when you obtained your copy of AoM, and whether you have the original game plus expansion, or the gold edition. But I have been with AoM from the very beginning, and if you check the AoM patch history, you will find that the Odin oddity that I talked about is a documented bug that was officially patched. I am not just having a rough guess or something.

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

In many cases, yes. In some cases not, as you are just finding out. And that is why I am saying that relying on the raw data files is not the way to go.

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

...which means that you cannot simply say: "Ok, all 10% ups are bugged and must be raised to 20% in the raw files. I factor that in and then rely on the raw files again." It is not that easy. The raw files do include such oddities, and are therefore not a reliable source unless you know all of these bugs. And since you cannot divine them, there is no way around testing them where it really counts: In the game.

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

If you run your test for a duration of 5 seconds and hope to obtain a precise result, yes. But choose a duration of, say, two minutes for your test, and the inaccuracy of a split second will become meaningless. The longer your test lasts, the lesser the importance of a split second will be.

This means that a serious test requires some patience. Which is another reason why it is the diligent way.

Choosing a reasonable testing duration allows you to measure pretty much all values in the game, including damage done and the like. Sometimes you will have to resort to triggers for this. For example, if you want to test the damage of a RC against a toxote, you must make sure that the tox does not die before your intended testing time ends. I usually achieve this using a trigger that gives the units repeated Dionysus baccanalias (yes, that is possible) while a villager is within range of a certain spot. I start the test, wait until the testing units have obtained several thousand hp and then move the vill away, so that the baccanalia flood stops. Then I pause the game and write down time on the clock (use F11 if not displayed) as well as the current hp of the target unit (it will have suffered some damage until then, but that does not matter because my test begins now and I write down its hp now.

Afterwards, I unpause the game and wait for the desired duration (e.g. two minutes). Then I pause again so that I have time to write down the new hp count of the target unit. I subtract the new count from the old value and get the amount of damage that the unit has suffered during the two minutes. I now just have to divide this amount by 120 seconds to get the amount of damage done per second with breathtaking accuracy.

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

So what you are saying now is that the raw game data files were indeed unreliable in vanilla AoM (which is why they were officially patched), but for some obscure reason you are sure that since AoMX, ES must have changed the rounding algorithm and the files must be reliable because raw game data files are always reliable? Don't you see the contradiction in what you are saying?

Besides, do you really think that if Odins bonus had been increased to 20% in the TT expansion, nobody would ever have noticed it until today? I mean, such a hunting bonus in archaic age would make a huge difference. I have been discussing in this forum for years, Magnum Pi, and you can be confident that I would have heard about this.

No offense intended, but what you are saying just does not make sense.

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

I never said the opposite. Provided that you conducted your test properly, you now know that Winter Harvest indeed provides its promised 20%. And you know that not all food upgrades work the same way.

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

Different theory (well, it is not really a theory, rather a given fact): The Odin hunting bonus bug was officially patched back in vanilla times by raising it to 20% in the raw game files (so that it was 10% in the actual game). What you extracted was the patched file, which of course contains the patched value.

If you own the original vanilla AoM CD (and not the gold version that already includes all patches), then I suggest you do a clean install from the CD without installing any patches. Then examine the techtree.bar again and be amazed.

One of the big myths in AOM is that Ra's priest empowerment is good. One priest gives a 20% improvement, while using up 100 resources and 2 population. In a group of 9 villagers, adding 2 villagers uses the same resources and pop, but the improvement is 22.222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222­222222222222222222222222222222222222%. So priest empowerment is not good, unless there are 10 villagers.

But since Eggy is mostly gold. You can easily have 20 vills mining gold, in which case the priest does make a difference. Also remember that resources run out sooner or later, but empowerment makes your vills drop off more than they actually gathered, so you squeeze more resources out of a given source before it is done.

I'v e never acually checked the stats for empowering, but there are a lot of false ideas about AoM circulating out there, so I wouldn't be too surprised if that were true. Although DeathandPain is right to say that for exhausting resources, you'd acually be generating decent profit, so with gold especially empowerment can still be favorable.

DeathAndPain, you seem to have misunderstood me on a few crucial points. It's true that I don't know if my copy of AoM was made to include the patches were speaking about or before. But in a way, that's irrelevant, I was not insisting that Odin's bonus could never have been set to 10%, and then in later patch get raised to 20% (speaking in techtree terms). I was rejecting the claim that while techtree said 10%, the game said 0% and only after the techtree was updated to say 20% did the game say 10%. I've been actively modding this sort of thing for nearly two years now and I've never seen the techtreex/protox or anything of that sort, just change the values it in on its own, ask any other about this modder too, it just doesn't happen.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

I thoguht this over to myself several times before replying, and if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that in most instances the data files are reliable, but in some they aren't. Not only are my test results showing the opposite, but that's illogical. Why do you think techtreex would randomly select which values to round and which to work with exactly? And that the entire modding community has never noticed this once in all the time it has existed? Come on, get real. I'll post the results of my tests soon, but for now, I stand by what I'm calling my "theory of absolutism" which states that the raw data files are accurate.

Quoted from DeathAndPaim:

You quite severly miscomprehended me here. I was acually saying that all the 10% upgrades do work as 10% and do not need to raised to 20%, and I gave the medium, heavy, and champion upgrades as clear, irrefutable, examples. According to techtree(x) they should improve the affected units by 10%, and lo and behold, they do affect the units by 10%. What reason do we have to believe that Odin and Thor's bonuses work any differently?

You stated "The raw files do include such oddities, and are therefore not a reliable source unless you know all of these bugs," but I (and the whole modding community for that matter) have never found one to date and my test results would support me here.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

I have to agree with you here . While conducting my own tests, I came to realize this myself (my tests all lasted between 3 and 4 minutes). Yes, conducting a test is a diligent way, but also a less convenient one, and the results consistantly come out to be the same as what the data files say. I like your RC vs. Toxote example though.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

No contradiction. You had the reasoning about right until the last claim in which you added a contradictory line yourself. You said that I said concluded: "and now the files must be reliable because raw game data files are always reliable." When in fact I was saying that were not always reliable (as in back in AoM, they weren't) but now they are (in AoMX).

I theorized this because I nkew nothing about modding in vanilla AoM, but have come to appreciate the raw data files since I started modding for TT, to reconcile what you heard about Odin with my experiences with the data files by saying that the data files used to be inaccurate but aren't now, seemed reasonable. The reasoning here is not obscure. Although further investigation seemed to disprove this, which was a subtopic of my next reply.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

Granted, you neved did say the opposite, if what you have been saying about the data files all along is true, then by implication Winter Harvest would not provide 20% (because that's what appears in the data files) and probably provide something less, i.e. 10%. I'm not sure what you mean by "And you know that not all food upgrades work the same way," yes, all the other farming upgrades affect farmers by 10%, but that's because 10% is what appears in the techtreex. Hunting Dogs improves hunters by 30%, but again 30% is what we see in the game data and the data proves accurate each and everytime.

Why are you so convinced otherwise? Are you just buying into what you have heard previously, or are you conducting your tests in such a way that allows unrelated external factors to distort the outcome of wheather the rates/amounts are being affected as they should?

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

This regarding my older speculation that AoM's data files were inaccurate were as TT's were. As I stated earlier, I'm not insisting that it's unreasonable that Odin's bonus was set to be 10% and a patch raised it to be set to 20%, that's quite believable. I'm saying it's not true that Odin's bonus ended up being 0% (even though techtree said 10%) and only becane 10% after the data files raised to value to 20%.

By extracting techtree out of data.bar I was not looking to see if the game's data files said it was at 10%, I did guess that it would be set at 20%. But if my speculation were correct, then other instances in which the game changes attributes by 10% should also be set to 20% in the techtree. (An example would be the medium, heavy, and champion military upgrades which improve attack and hp by 10%.) But alas, we find that other technologies which are known to affect unit attributes by 10% have their techtree stats indeed set to 10%. As is the case with 20% improvements.

So why should we believe that while everyother 10% tech works as it should, Odin's bouns did not and needed to be raised to 20%? Even though you say that this was an officially-documented and patched bug, please remain open to the possibility that this may nonetheless be false.

Finally, I'm unsure which part of what your saying is being refered to as "a given fact." Is it that the techtree will round values? If so, then there is not yet any reason to belive that. Is it that Odin's bonus was originally set at 10% in the data files and a later patch raised it to 20%? If so, then that's easily imagineable. If it's to say that the data files regarding Odin's bonus needed to be raised inorder to get the acually desired affect, then, again there's no solid evidence. I'm a little over half done in typing out my test results so I should have those soon, if not, then tommorrow. (Note that I started typing them out yesterday late at night so don't shot me if it's a little "weird.")

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

I have to say the same about you .

[This message has been edited by Magnum Pi (edited 09-01-2006 @ 10:26 PM).]