Day 1-

My forces storm out of my elven citadel and accomplished a great deal today.

Reserving my ring-side seats!

Outlier out ...

Dark Elves, turn 1.

Moving out. Exploring (well, not really ), setting up to investigate some nearby ruins tomorrow. Nothing too exciting to report.

Turn sent.

Day 2-

Many evil fiends were slayed today. Progress is going well. One of my units would have been ahead of schedule, if I had my wizard do its job. Oh well... at least it was not one of my special units. It only cost me one turn.

Turn sent

Dark Elves, turn 2.

Well, a bloodier fight than I'd hoped -- that may set me back a turn. Otherwise, all's well.

Turn sent.

Elves-Day 3

Our hero got really hurt today. Thankfully, Elme has healing. My scout spotted almost all of the dark elf troops coming in the north. Before my scout ran off, he tried successfully to find extra troops in the camp. They were of the light races and joined me free of charge. I think JWorth will find them very entertaining.

There are five testy draconians to guard the camp that will not join me, but the game still randomly generates three extra units since its defenders were set to average. Swolte will need to take that into consideration next time. For now, JWorth, you may want to consider trying your luck down south at your camp.

TURN SENT

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-14-2003 @ 03:20 PM).]

Dark Elves, turn 3.

Marching around, not much to report.

Yeah, those camp guards seem to be the only random element affecting balance -- I'm not sure I mind, though -- they introduce an entertaining unknown into the relative strength calculus on the two fronts. Of course, I'd prefer that they both had turned up evil .

Turn sent.

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-14-2003 @ 04:26 PM).]

Day 3 or 4 can't remember-

We fought a good number of battles today.

TURN SENT

Dark Elves, day 4.

Did some fighting today.

Turn sent.

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-15-2003 @ 02:48 PM).]

Quote:

Noted, thx!

*I'll update later*

Glad you will fix it, Swolte.

Day 4-

We made battle with an annoying dark elf boar in the south. It had obviously say some of my troops, so we chased it down and killed it. My forces consolidate some of the holdings there and slew many.

TURN SENT

Dark Elves, turn 5.

Engaged in some slaughter of our own this turn, with more to come.

I'd hoped that my boar would at least take a scrub or two with it before it fell -- I utter a mild oath at the gods for spawning good units at both campsites, but no matter, I knew it was a possibility. It'll be interesting to see how much strength Serena can muster in the mountain passes over the next few days, as there's no sign at all of her in the north.

Turn sent.

Elves-Day 5

We engaged in a few battles today. I feel only a few rays of hope in the midst of uncertainty in the north as my scout data is two days old and I do not know what the dark elves are up to. However, they seem to be stalling for some reason, which hopefully is in my favor. Only time will tell...

TURN SENT

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-15-2003 @ 07:02 PM).]

Dark Elves, turn 6.

Hmm... I don't particularly like how the southern front is developing. Took a small risk up north to try to speed things up. We'll see how it pans out next turn.

Turn sent.

Elves-Day 7

My iron maiden made gold status today.

TURN SENT

Dark Elves, day 7.

Nice play down south, Tekk Zero -- for days 4 & 5, you had me completely bluffed as to the overall shape of the campaign. Didn't figure things out until you razed the goblins on turn 6 (good thing your second hero had already arrived). We'll see if my hasty adjustments on the fly have been adequate... there could be a couple of big fights next turn .

Oh, just out of interest, counting backwards from your nymph's current location, you rush built a war hall on your turn 2? I hadn't realized that there was that much gold readily available in the elven start position -- definitely need to study that more carefully (or maybe it was a production speed-up event?).

Turn sent.

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-17-2003 @ 09:15 AM).]

Day 8- Elves

I am sorry for the delay and the restart on my turn. I by accident opened the previous turn (confused that our days are different). Please accept my sincerest apologies.

Anyways, nothing happened at all, I made sure of it. I did see your impressive array of forces in the south and as a result retreated my iron maiden. I wouldn't want you to kill her. I still need her.

Again, sorry for the restart. I hate restarts.

TURN SENT

EDIT: As of now, I won't endanger any of my secrets. All I will say right is it is not obvious. I wouldn't want to post it here, so others would know my (soon to be our) little secret.

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-18-2003 @ 06:10 PM).]

Dark Elves, day 8.

Still kicking myself that I didn't advance into counterattack range on turn 5, when the iron maiden was unescorted. Oh well, nothing to be done about it now...

Ah, curiosity will be the death of me. I suspect that I'm about to find out what happens when a level 5 hero (she's been busy) and an iron maiden slice through a stack of archers and lvl. 2s... At least I left myself room to backpedal out of reach of (almost all of) their possible supports. Well, I challenged you (I mean, invited you to a game ) for the education, and I suppose an education is what I'll get.

Turn sent.

Oh, no problem about the restart. If past experience is any guide, I'm likely to have at least one random lock-up at some point.

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-19-2003 @ 03:39 AM).]

Quoted from JWorth:

... Victory was mine today on the southern front.

The attacking/defense force of lvl.2 units and archers of Archana was destroyed. Not how I expected the battle to go though. Elme did not take as much of the early ranged fire damage during the battle like I expected (though quite a bit more later in the battle where you punished me with the ambomination and dark priest; however, overall she got a little luck on those early rounds and not nearly as much in the later rounds), but my glade runner's absorbance of damage was disappointing (I had expected him to take at least one more shot). One thing I was glad about is that my iron maiden had enough res to keep the ambomination from entangling her much (once out of three?), thus keeping him mostly busy. Nevertheless, I am not complaining about the battle at all (just a few notes) as Elme and the iron maiden made it out alive (though the only unit I really cared about surviving was Elme).

The big key to the battle was that I had magic and you did not JWorth. I was a little surprised you took my bait; you moved out of your Wizard's domain just liked I hoped you would. Note: I would have either barely won or lost (maybe even very badly) the battle if you had been able to have ur wizard cast spells.

BTW remind me after the game is over to tell you how I got so much gold with the elves so quickily (fair, but unorthodox). All I will say right now is that even you had access to those resources as the Dark Elves.

TURN SENT

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-19-2003 @ 04:25 AM).]

Dark Elves, turn 9.

Yup, that was about what I expecting to happen. Odd, how I was 99% certain that was a trap, but felt an irresistable impulse to poke my nose in anyway...and then to reinforce the mistake, even after I'd seen what was going on .

Only one (slim) chance left for me. My apologies for not playing a better game...this isn't going to turn out to be much of a tune-up match for you for the flurry of challenges I'm sure are about to come.

Turn sent.

Day 10-

You have played a good game. Remember it is not over yet.

I watched in horror as the halfing village was destroyed by JWorth. I wanted to destroy it. It is too much of a liability right now.

My nympths killed the weakened boar and the nympths now move back into the water.

Anyways, my iron maiden took the tower and the fire node by the dark elf capitol. Unless there is a lot of cavalry there, I doubt they can reach or hurt my iron maiden.

Right now, Elme is resting and recovering. However, the threat of a unit killing her has subsided, since her life points are recovering well.

Unfortunately, it looks like the north is in stalemate. We have equal number of forces and whoever attacks will be destroyed.

TURN SENT

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-19-2003 @ 05:53 PM).]

Dark Elves, turn 10.

Thanks, Tekk Zero. I agree, it's not over yet, though it's certainly going to be an uphill fight from here on... there will be no more reinforcements for the northern front, and so I order my army to march and issue a challenge to battle. Might as well even the odds a bit with some poison first, though .

Interesting -- you were planning to raze the halfling village? It struck me that I had to raze it myself, as it would simply double your reinforcement rate down south, and even peasants can soak up arrows...

Turn sent.

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-19-2003 @ 09:18 PM).]

Day 11- Elves

I have cut JWorth's empire in half. My amphibious nymphs attacked and seduced the occupying forces in his orc city. I have also taken JWorth's node in the north and razed the fire node in the south. My forces move back in response to the poison attack. My empire is setup for a long war, but can the dark elves do this too with negative upkeep? Good luck!

TURN SENT

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-20-2003 @ 03:15 AM).]

Dark Elves, turn 11.

I appreciate my fair cousin's concern for my fiscal condition, but perhaps the elves haven't yet learned the magic of seven day sunset provisions? My finance minister assures me that the budget is quite healthy...

Well, nothing to be done about it -- I march to the frontiers of Serena's domain. With any luck, tomorrow I shall enter that foul, green place. I order my troops to take a double session of target practice -- their performance yesterday against the nymphs was pathetic.

Turn sent.

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-20-2003 @ 10:32 AM).]

Elves, Day 12- Judgement Day

...The battle is over today after I successfully assaulted Arachana in her wizard tower. However, a few things went awry this turn (my northern force was completely destroyed and Elme was killed). Things can never be perfect (today I probably experienced one of my most suprising defeats as of yet in Age of Wonders II). Nevertheless, the battle was won because of an intricate plan to drain Arachana of all her magic before the final battle.

Before the battle, with my nymphs and their converts , I razed the orc city, so that even if I lost all my battles there would not be much left for JWorth to work with.

My plan, which apparently did not work perfectly, was to attack JWorth's northern front with all of my available northern forces. It was my 15 units vs. JWorth's 12 units (both sides with a hero). This afternoon I ran a few variable tests in JWorth's favor to make sure I would win and I won about 90% of the time, so I was extremely surprised not only to lose, but to lose almost double the units (7 to 15). It was even more shocking when my troops were better, because they had enchantments and JWorth only had one stone skin on his poisoned hero.

Quoted from JWorth:

It seems to have helped your forces in in the north.

Nevertheless, I did accomplish what I wanted out of the battle in the north and that was the draining of Arachana's spellcasting points (she casted 3 stoning in the battle- 10 SP each). With her casting points gone, I assaulted the Dark Elf city with my heavily enchanted iron maiden and Elme. Elme was killed along with the six valiant dark elf defenders, but my gold medal Iron Maiden stood alone... yet victorous. I am certainly glad this battle did not go awry as a few tests showed that I won about 83% of the time.

The factors that heavily favored me were my enchantments and use of attack spells (I think... I got the victory screen before I got a chance to see what happened in the real game; tests showed I did though), neither of which Arachana had.

Great game, JWorth, you were a good opponent.

TURN SENT

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-20-2003 @ 08:47 PM).]

Dark Elves, turn...

Good game, Tekk Zero. Your race south with the iron maiden and hero was my undoing; I never really did recover my balance after they first appeared. You move with impressive speed -- which was what I was expecting, but it was still a sight to see.

Looking at the last turn -- yup, I did get lucky up north (though it's surprising how much even a couple of points of starting damage degrade the combat performance of lvl 1s), whih is just as well, as I was going to have an almost impossible time trying to force my way across that bridge. Didn't matter much in the end, though -- with my mana drained, your hero and maiden cut through my capital defenses like they weren't even there (the maiden was only about 25% wounded at the end of the fight, and Elme survived long enough for you to get in a full set of offensive spell casting, as you suspected).

Congrats.
-- JWorth

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-21-2003 @ 04:06 PM).]

Looks like I shouldnt play this map with Tekk
interesting read, guys

hmm I should practise in case I get Arachnia...

Waterfly,

Believe it or not, I still think that this map is pretty well-balanced. The elves may have a small advantage, hard to be sure, but I wouldn't judge the potential of the dark elves by my flawed play and collapse in this game. My only balance suggestions would be scripting in second hero arrivals for both players on around turn 4 or so, so that each side is guaranteed of the ability to deploy magic on both fronts at roughly the same time (dark elves never did get a second hero in this game), and dealing with the campsite issue, already noted above. If I'd had the sense to stay passive (and in my own domain) in the south until I could deploy magic support, though, I think a stalemate at home might just have been possible, and I had a (very slight) advantage up north until all the incoming reinforcements had to be diverted to try to grab a couple of turns of breathing room at home.

It's hard to say for sure of course, but I wouldn't give up on the dark elves on the evidence of this rout alone. And of course, most elven players won't play at Tekk Zero's level...oh, I see, it's your match against Tekk Zero that you're thinking about...

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-21-2003 @ 06:12 PM).]

Dark elves have a starting unit advantage, racial relation bonus (by earth) and I believe one better city upgrade.
Dunno about the heroes, though. Guess scouting and making the expansion choice for the hero is part of the game (hence, getting magical support when and where).

Enchanted Bladedancer are, well terrible. Toned enchant weapon down to +1/+1 and magical strike in AoW-sm, btw.. Rush tactics are better with the elves here, probably..

Anyway, thx for the feedback. I'll look into it after 2 weeks (one week work Triumph and 1 week of rest.. )

ps, Waterfly knows how to play Dark Elves!

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 05-21-2003 @ 05:59 PM).]

I see you're taking a break from working on SM, Swolte, shame, shame ...

Anyway, I completely agree that initial hero direction is a central strategic issue on this map -- I was simply suggesting that the random factor be removed from the appearance of second heroes, whose arrival is quite important, given the two-front nature of the terrain (it strikes me that a 3 to 2 hero edge is much less significant here than a 2 to 1 advantage). Agreed that enchanted bladedancers are hugely overpowered -- of course, I'd pretty much lost well before they could become a factor , but I don't think that's really relevant in evaluating the overall possibilities of the dark elves in this map.

I love the scenario, though. It's really fascinating -- probably my favorite 1 vs. 1 (of course, I haven't tried them all...far from it ).

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-21-2003 @ 06:48 PM).]

Quoted from Waterfly:

My good friend, if you offically challenge, I am entitled to choose the map, while you are entitled to choose the races.

Personally, I think the odds would be equal on this map. I choose the elves, because I knew it would give JWorth the starting advantage. I have played both sides and both sides have an equal chance of winning. I am not sure which races is truly better. Both have some nasty tricks in their bags.

The only wild cards on the map are random weapons (some weapons are still better than others, but not by much), the defenders at the camps that can begotten, and hero appearances. It might be interesting as JWorth indicated that both sides get another hero with an event. A third hero truly is not needed, because heroes start out weak and there are not enough weapons to help facilitate leveling up. Remove those elements and you can have a balanced Danny's Sock. It will be based upon skill, guile, and a little luck in the auto combat system. Already this map is much better balanced than many of the other maps I have played.

The big decider of the battle was my successful trap of JWorth's southern army. I hope that you, Waterfly, know me well enough to expect my tricks. I always happen to bring a bag of tricks. Or do you?

All in all, you probably have more pratical experience as the dark elves than I do and I have greater experience with the elves on this map. A match up here would be quite scary. With your aggressive and generally mindboggling skills , the game should prove a wonderful challenge for me (as you and I haven't played a game against each other in over 6 months). I am glad I will still have some time to hone up my skills while you are busy trying to beat AIM and Castanieda (I think I need to compensate a bit for my lack of playing this Spring).

Quoted from Swolte:

Considering that everyone can get enchant weapon it is not really a great big killer. Unless of course you do not research it.

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 05-21-2003 @ 10:11 PM).]

Is the action over already? I'm still glued to my seat ... but now have nowhere to turn ...

Anyhow, congrats Tekk! This is indeed an eye opener seeing you in action for the first time. Regarding your final battle though, it does seem a bit risky to me ... especially after losing so badly up north. But then I guess you have nothing to lose by then either ...

Quoted from Tekk Zero:

BTW, how do you do these tests? Do you try to recreate a similar scenario with the map editor and then play it over and over again?

Outlier out ...

Quoted from Outlier:

If you call 80% chance of winning risky, then I have seen a lot of people do risky things in AoWII. Risk is part of the game.

However, I view attacking a few deprived lower level units without magic against higher level units with magic is not all that risky. Having my hero and my wizard nail an archer and then my iron maiden phase killing another one can be deadly. His only chance was his spider queen and that unit would definitely have trouble webbing a 14 Res. iron maiden.

Now the flipside is that I would have been ruined if his wizard could have stoned me. Stoning is pretty powerful and probably would have killed my hero leaving me without magic. If JWorth had not moved his units into range in the north, he would not have died then. However, I had destroyed most of his economy giving me a significant edge. In small maps like these loosing your resources to razing can be a big killer.

Quoted from Outlier:

Yes, I do now. However, I use to not do that, since a gut feeling can be enough most of the time. I started because a few players in the past had accused me of cheating, so I generally now make sure math is on my side (how can they say I cheat if they can recreate the battle themselves? ). It certainly lends me credibility. And as the present champion, I don't want to be seen as 'lucky.' But of course headlong risks are still one of my favored tactics as unpredictability is a very good thing to toy with your opponent's psyche.

Anways, when I have a big battle like these, it sure is nice to find out what my odds are before commencing the attack (even a battle that looks like it might go well could be really bad in AC). I tested quite a few times in AC to simulate the battles. It is not hard and did not take but more than 20-25 minutes, especially considering that if I did not attack we would still be fighting this out.

Tekk, thanks for the enlightment!

Quoted from Tekk Zero:

What I meant was that since your 90+% attack failed so miserably, perhaps it's "riskier" to go with a 80% chance right after ... "bad luck" is contagious afterall ...

BTW, I guess I'm one of those risk-takers as well ...

Outlier out ...

Quoted from Outlier:

Maybe, but I am a 'believer' in good luck and a battle that goes south on me doesn't have to dampen my day. Keep in mind, I try to be the optimist (not to mention the 80% chance wouldn't have changed as I got his spell casting drained--- and I still liked those odds for winning).

The "dice system" always rules the day. One success never means another one and one defeat does not mean another defeat. It is the freak role of the numbers. I remember many times roleplaying Star Wars and botching a simple task, while sometimes succeeding in unhumanly possible feats.

Not that it did me much good here , but I was doing the same thing -- testing battles with a variety of seeds before playing them for real. Glad to know I'm not the only one...

(I'll take small issue with the 90%+ odds on that northern battle, though I did have undeniably good luck up there -- the one thing I haven't figured out how to easily model is troops that start a fight with some damage -- is there a way to place damaged troops with the editor? Might be good to know about, if there is.)

Tekk Zero, one observation on the final battle that you didn't get to see -- I hadn't realized before just how powerful phase actually is in FC city combat. Basically, melee troops inside the walls won't attack phasing attackers until the walls have come down, even though the phasing units are attacking "inside" the walls -- much superior to how the ability operates in TC -- suggests all sorts of abusive possibilities for pure-phasing armies (which would never bring down the walls, and so never become subject to concentrated counterattack, while they would be able to concentrate attacks on the defenders...). Probably shouldn't have broadcast that (unless it's common knowledge that just hadn't made its way to me), but what the heck .

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-23-2003 @ 00:42 AM).]

Well actually 90%+ is not what I said. I said that it was "about" 90% (88.9%- 32/36 Wins). The battle in the south was 83.3% with 30/36 battles won. That is what I got when I tested (and I tried mostly with the conditions a little bit against me just in case I hadn't accounted for every detail ). You may get a bit different.

Quoted from JWorth:

Play the game with Poison Plants, Sacred Woods, and Evil Woods in the vicinity of the battle you are curious about and damage your units to your specs (not to hard to get it around what you want).

Quoted from Jworth:

BTW I did account for that to happen in the battle (it happened always in the tests so I strongly suspected that it happened again). The reason for this is because the hero is considered a more dangerous target by the AI than the iron maiden (not totally a phase issue, but I am not going blabber mouth more on the topic).

Play the game with Poison Plants, Sacred Woods, and Evil Woods in the vicinity of the battle you are curious about and damage your units to your specs (not to hard to get it around what you want).

Ah, very good idea. Thanks.

As far as the phasing issue goes, I think something slightly more complex than target preference is going on -- if you look at your test-battle, you'll see that the spider queen sits completely inert until the wall comes down -- it's not that she concentrated on the hero; both the hero and the iron maiden are treated as though they're out of reach, even though the maiden is phasing in and attacking each round.

As an aside, what is the "quote" syntax?

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 05-23-2003 @ 01:02 AM).]

Quote:

Of course there is , but my lips are somehow magically sealed on this subject.

On another note, just type [QUOTE=Person's Name(Optional)][/QUOTE] with text in between the [QUOTE] BB Code. You can read more about it here: http://www.heavengames.com/forumfaq.shtml#bbcode