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Caesar IV Heaven » Forums » Caesar III: Game Help » Waterfront desirability
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Topic Subject: Waterfront desirability
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Secateur
Pleb
posted 08-09-01 08:22 ET (US)   
The manual says that waterfront and elevated property are more desirable than regular terrain. The readme file says that elevated property isn't more desirable anyway, the manual is wrong. When looking at a map with desirability overlay, all 'open terrain' tiles with desirability different from zero is coloured accordingly. Maps without any structures doesn't have any colour at all. Conclusion: Terrain is irrelevant for desirability.

Wrong. Hint: Waterfront property. For some reason, the extra desirability for waterfront desirability does not show on the desirability overlay. In one of my cities I had two houses in an undesirable neighbourhood. The house with, according to the overlay, the smallest desirability evolved higher than the house with the largest desirability. However, one of the houses was closer to a lake! Can you guess which one?

Testing was needed. Counting the desirability as I was used to, and adding and removing gardens as I pleased, I found that the house two tiles from the closest water tile was unaffected. However, the house one tile from the water tile, was given a +10 secret desirability bonus. Fountains, whose graphic changes with desirability, was never affected by the waterfront.

By now, I was bored of testing. I only noted that the waterfornt house had two water tiles within the range of one from it.
Theory 1A: Water tiles are considered 5,0,0,0,0,0 water-desirable tiles.
Theory 1B: Water areas are considered one huge 10,0,0,0,0,0 warer-desirable blob.
Theory 2: Water-desirability only affect house evolution.

So, finally the question to the C3Heaven community: What is the correct behaviour of the waterfront?

Author
Replies:
Duan Xuan
Pleb
posted 08-09-01 08:40 ET (US)     1 / 34  
I read that one from the manual as well. They say that houses near water or on highland have better desirability. But I think that houses have higher desirability after they are built instead of the land being more desirable at all times...
D XUAN
Secateur
Pleb
posted 08-09-01 09:02 ET (US)     2 / 34  
OK... that would explain why fountains isn't affected, I guess... but why? It wouldn't matter that much if it was regular desirability, would it? After all, it's housing that really needs desirability, it doesn't really matter for fountains and markets and such, when you're considering the big picture. And I don't like that it's avoiding the desirability overlay! But, what do you think about the theories? 1A or 1B? Something totally different? Other numbers?
Duan Xuan
Pleb
posted 08-09-01 21:02 ET (US)     3 / 34  
I think it's Theory No.2, Secateur. I think it only affects houses and not the land itself.
D XUAN
Jack Noir
Pleb
posted 08-10-01 00:04 ET (US)     4 / 34  
Your August Sirs,

Sorry guys, the manual is misprinted. There is no benefit to being close to water or on raised land for housing.

Welcome to the Forum. We tell'em staight.

Regards,

J a c k N o i r

Secateur
Pleb
posted 08-10-01 05:20 ET (US)     5 / 34  
Duan Xuan: I agree. However, I think I might have confused you a bit. Due to my testing the theories was presented as I found them, but they ought to be read in reversed order. That is, I present the term water-desirability in theory 2, where we agree, and use the term in theory 1A and 1B. The purpose of theory 2 is to establish that an effect is taking place, while theories 1A and 1B is measuring the magnitude of this effect. In my opinion, city planning is very amusing, and this effect could change my planning. (Ok, that isn't often, but I want to know anyway, ok) So, the remaining question is the magnitude. I'm probably going to test that some time.

Jack Noir: Yes, it's a misprint, raised land doesn't generate desirability, but it's still a misprint if they meant that only one of those two factors were wrong. You might be correct, though, and I thought so too for a long time. However, your theory fails to explain that my waterfront property absolutely refuses to devolve when it should, while inland property devolves as it's supposed to. Or am I completely missing something?

Duan Xuan
Pleb
posted 08-10-01 06:38 ET (US)     6 / 34  
I have a feeling that you all don't really understand what I am saying...

I am saying that (I repeat for the 1 millionth time ) being close to water raises desirability for houses only. It does not affect the land directly. Only houses can have the greater land value.

D XUAN
bengel
Pleb
posted 08-10-01 06:54 ET (US)     7 / 34  
Duan_xuan: so...you mean you cannot see a change in desirability on the desirability map, but that it does influence the houses?
http://users.pandora.be/belsoccer
Duan Xuan
Pleb
posted 08-10-01 07:10 ET (US)     8 / 34  
Yes, Bengel, exactly that. You won't see any difference in desirability with empty land. (I'm only making guesses)
D XUAN
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 08-10-01 18:48 ET (US)     9 / 34  
Secateur,

Congratulations on your discovery! Every time we think we understand the game, something unexpected turns up.

I ran a couple of simple tests, and a small tent next to water evolved to a large tent with 10 less desirability than expected when it was either next to water or on raised land next to the cliff. I didn't check how far the effects reach.

Duan Xuan
Pleb
posted 08-10-01 21:23 ET (US)     10 / 34  
Hmmm... Go on, Brugle. I'm interested. You seem to be shedding some light on the question...
D XUAN
Jack Noir
Pleb
posted 08-10-01 21:24 ET (US)     11 / 34  
Your August Sirs,

Even though I have been spouting the "standard" answer I guess I have been seeing the same thing in my Cliff dwellers scenarios and did not realize what I was looking at!

Regards,

J a c k N o i r

catilina
Pleb
posted 08-11-01 16:31 ET (US)     12 / 34  
Secateur,

I also ran some tests and my conclusions are:
The 10 bonus points seem to apply for all houses whose northern tile is (not diagonally!) adjacent to a seaside and
for all houses on raised land.
And no, bonus points are not cumulative.

Btw, nice discovery
-Catilina

Duan Xuan
Pleb
posted 08-11-01 21:15 ET (US)     13 / 34  
It's the Northern Tile again!

Great Experimentalist of the Forums: catilina!

D XUAN
Secateur
Pleb
posted 08-20-01 13:54 ET (US)     14 / 34  
To everyone: Thanks for helping me
Trium3
Pleb
posted 10-17-08 12:52 ET (US)     15 / 34  
This is not the thread I was looking for, but it will have to do

This may or may not be new.

The 10-point waterfront/elevation bonus appears to also benefit houses along the map edge. I built three adjacent 2x2 tents along the NE edge of the map with no other desirability influences at all. The outer two went to Large Hovel (requires 8) and the middle one to Small Hovel (requires 4). Since these dwellings exert an influence of -2 at one tile range and -1 at 2 tiles, the outer buildings have most desirable tile at -1 and the inner -3.
street
Pleb
posted 10-17-08 14:27 ET (US)     16 / 34  
Interesting
Are you a victim? Of anything? Become a survivor by working for change. If anyone else suffers less than I did, then my pain has served a purpose and I hurt less.

Try it http://c3modsquad.freeforums.org/!
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-17-08 15:47 ET (US)     17 / 34  
Trium3,
It may be that houses consider the map edge to be coastline (as clay pits do in Pharaoh but not in Caesar III). To check this theory, you could repeat your tests on the other map edges--if edges are treated like coastline, 2x2 houses would need 10 less desirability when touching the NE or NW edges but not when touching the SE or SW edges.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 10-17-2008 @ 03:53 PM).]

Trium3
Pleb
posted 10-19-08 19:38 ET (US)     18 / 34  
Brugle - I thought that likely, and indeed it is the case that 2x2 houses against the SE/SW edges do not evolve as far with the same desirability conditions. 1x1's, of course, evolve more readily against any egde.

Regarding the elevation bonus - Catilina's post seems to suggest that the northern tile is not relevant. Further, while an early post of yours in this thread suggests the house needs to be against the cliff, his seems to suggest that anywhere on raised ground will do. I would check if I wasn't busy making a contest deadline - do you happen to know the situation?

Out of interest, one of the sections of the save file contains a grid mostly set at zero, but the value 1 is set for each tile where the ground is elevated. If a second tier is present (such as in the career 'Valentia') the value 2 is set for those 'doubly elevated' tiles. I'm just wondering if the desirability bonus is enhanced according to those numbers. Testing time
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-20-08 10:21 ET (US)     19 / 34  

Quoted from Trium3:

Regarding the elevation bonus - Catilina's post seems to suggest that the northern tile is not relevant.
catilina is careful in his replies--probably more careful than me. (I only remember one time when he was wrong.) He appears to be right in this case.

Quoted from Trium3:

while an early post of yours in this thread suggests the house needs to be against the cliff,
That's a bit of a stretch. I checked houses that were next to a cliff (or water) and didn't check houses that weren't next to a cliff (or water). I meant that to suggest that I considered it possible that a house might need to be next to (or fairly close to) a cliff (or water) to evolve with less desirability, but that I didn't have any evidence one way or the other (in either case).

Quoted from Trium3:

I'm just wondering if the desirability bonus is enhanced according to those numbers. Testing time
I ran a test with 1x1 small tents evolving to large tents several tiles from cliffs in two locations in the career Valentia. The small tent 1 tier up evolved to a large tent at desirability -20 (10 less than normal), as expected. The small tent 2 tiers up evolved to a large tent at desirability -22 (12 less than normal).
Lord Normanby
Venerable Old Codger
(id: Caesar Clifford)
posted 10-20-08 18:12 ET (US)     20 / 34  
I most likley am wrong but I thought catalina used to be female.
Brugle
HG Alumnus
posted 10-20-08 18:35 ET (US)     21 / 34  
Caesar Clifford,
I (obviously) remember catilina as male, but my memory could be faulty. At least I remember the correct spelling.
Lord Normanby
Venerable Old Codger
(id: Caesar Clifford)
posted 10-20-08 22:28 ET (US)     22 / 34  
Brugle, sorry, my spelling has always been suspect. I'm not sure but my memory is female. Should have a look in the old threads sometime.

Interesting from Catilina's profile her/his webpage with downloads are still avaliable Catilina c3 maps

While I would love to see the 163,460 population map I guess I'm never going to.

[This message has been edited by Caesar Clifford (edited 10-20-2008 @ 10:31 PM).]

Trium3
Pleb
posted 10-21-08 15:41 ET (US)     23 / 34  

Quoted from Brugle:

That's a bit of a stretch.
Your post clearly stated that you had not tested how far the effect reached and I did not mean to imply that you were making an assertion. But thank you for confirming that a second tier of elevation carries a further bonus. I suspected that it might.
joshofet
Pleb
posted 10-21-08 17:21 ET (US)     24 / 34  
Lucius Sergius Catilina (108 - 62 BC) definitely was male. The idea that names ending on "a" are always female is a common misconception. It is true that Latin words from the first declination, which end on "a", are typically feminin. The standard is rosa, for rose, which is feminin, but agricola, farmer, is in the first declination; still in Roman times nobody would think of a woman when someone was said to be an agricola. In this case Catilina was a family name, and though there most probably have been female members of that family, the person commonly referred to as "Catilina" was a man.

BTW what is a female memory CC?

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 10-21-2008 @ 05:27 PM).]

Lord Normanby
Venerable Old Codger
(id: Caesar Clifford)
posted 10-21-08 23:33 ET (US)     25 / 34  
LOL. A female memory would be one that is long and unforgiving but then I have bad experiences with them in general.
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