Clifford - I was speaking from memory. The city, 67 776 population and 120 palaces, did not have a name so I've called it Megopolis. I still have more than 20 building sprites left but I am right on the walker limit. I could have removed a few forums.
The suggestion of using a free tile between the palaces and the road is interesting but would mean a complete revamp of the map. Unfortunately using C3 corrupts my windows ME registry according to System Works so this is a very slow process.
There are several things to try now. The one I am going for is:
1. new map
2. 80 large palaces, with the extra tile spacing,
3. Perfect city health and build very quckly, 1500 per year at least
4. Use fountains to absorb excess labour.
5. Go for a quick finish, 40 to 50 years.

I intended to send you a sav but cannot find your email, mail me if you want one.

[This message has been edited by Theo (edited 03-06-2002 @ 10:43 PM).]

If anyone is interested in my Gigantium, I can send them a copy so they can see how not to build a big city. Tomek's and Theo's are much better. I got it back out tonight and added a few hundred people to it but caused a few problems by doing so. So if you get it pause it and study it before anything happens to it. Details are I got to 51,536 pop with all small casas.
Unemployment is 76% or 9,746 workers. culture 4, prosperity 26, peace 100, favor 88. It has taken me 45 years to reach this level. Most of the last 20 or so have been just tweaking to get higher.

I checked out when I reached the population milestones.
Starting date Jan 10 BC
500 - July 10 BC
1000 - Oct 10 BC
2000 - March 9 BC
3000 - Sept 9 BC
5000 - Sept 8 BC
10,000 - Dec 6 BC
15,000 - Feb 3 BC
20,000 - July 1 BC
25,000 - July 4 AD

No messages after that level sadly. Would have been nice to get one at 50,000.

Hey, I didn't know there were any population milestones after 5000. I've never built a city on your scale, or anything remotely close to it, but I did finish the career Lutetia and Valentia, both over 10000. I didn't get any milestone message in either one, and in Lutetia I remember I had to play it out a full year after getting 10000 because my prosperity wasn't quite high enough yet.

Edit: I took a closer look at my final save from Valentia. Population was the last objective to be met, and it happened during the wave of births at the beginning of a year, immediately followed by promotion. When I played on I saw a new message which was the milestone. I missed it before because it didn't stop to play the movie automatically the way the earlier milestones do. No doubt I missed the milestone in Lutetia for the same reason. My apologies.

[This message has been edited by wolf (edited 03-07-2002 @ 06:43 PM).]

I'll be in it, but I should say I haven't created greater than 12,000 so far. Just planning and dreaming it up at this stage. I'm way impressed with the cities others here have created

Theo sent me his city. It is far better than Tomek's. In fact it is easily the best city I have ever seen. Now how do I create one thats as good?

Thanks for the kind words Clifford but my city is not better than Tomek's. His city is stable, mine is not. His city has no crime my lot are about to riot. My only objective was to get as big as possible.

Tomek was my inspiration and I just copied his ideas and added a few of my own like not having performer schools for entertainment and a northern province not needing prefects.

My best idea was the redesign of palace blocks, needing less reservoirs, statues, markets, warehouses etc.

What about this?

My record is probably 20+ K so far. It wasn't done purposely. It just happened to hit 20 000. I've never done a city with full intention of getting 50K. Sounds impossible to me.

I've never even tried to get a city that big--but it might be an interesting challenge to try when I have finished my current (personal) challenge--which is to get perfect scores in every career city where 100 prosperity is possible. Part of this challenge involves limiting the population, because that's the only way to prevent premature victory. Maximizing population would require a completely different strategy.

In creating a huge city, do most people design their own maps or are there any maps provided that would be recommended? I imagine you would want to design a map where resources would be easy to get--in other words, a nice long river running along one side and plenty of farmland. A nothern province would be preferable, because of not needing prefectures. And of course, you would give yourself plenty of startup money and plenty of lucrative exports. Has anyone tried this on a career map?

I don't expect I'll be doing this any time soon, but when I do I'll try to remember to search for this thread and ressurect it!

Lucy, I think most people attempting huge populations design their own maps. I think most people who don't want housing above Large Insulae to set Rome providing food. It's rather economical.

If the map is set as "Rome supply wheat",then 50000 population is not difficult at all,as you can save a lot of walkers on farms,granaries,markets.

Lucy,

Some of the later "career" maps is large enough to build a huge city,but due to the terrain and limited food source,I think 30-32k is the limit if you want all the population being fed.You can also achieve higher population in these maps with part of the population living in tents,but it will be difficult to "win" the mission because of the culture rating reqirement is usually quite high.

In most of the career cities(after Midiolanum,I think),100 prosperity(if it is your means of "perfect city") can be achived before your city meet the peace rating reqirement(50 peace needs 12 years).Some of the governors have achieved 100 prosperity in 10 years(such as Brugle's Tarsus,which is in the download section).If you want to build a big population and avoid a "prematured victory",just hold the culture rating below required.

Sorry Theo, I beat your record. I'm sure its just for a while but I'm happy. I am not finished yet and hope to go over 70,000 soon.

Plebus, if its so easy then why hasn't anyone ever done it before?.

Bernie, made my start on the contest.

Lucy, you do have to design your own map. In my latest effort I put Rome reduces wages. They were down to 8Dn by about year25. As you say you have as much startup funds as you can, etc. Theo's map is an awesome one as it Tomek's. And you have to get the right empire location, no fighting, no requests, etc. I am learning more about what is needed all the time. Need a supply of Marble, thats for sure. I ave made a few mistakes on gigantium plus map but thats okay. I have still managed to break the record with it.

[This message has been edited by Clifford (edited 03-09-2002 @ 09:49 PM).]

76,001

and I could get a few more but I made a stuff up on the map which would stop me achieving the maximum. I have well over 1000 buildings though. I wondered if the limit was 1000 buildings or is it 2000 buildings and 1000 walkers?

Wow, Clifford, I'm impressed. (I would make some double entendre here about size, but I'm not sure that's appropriate for a G-rated board ).

Plebus, I just realized where the difference lies in my completion times, as compared to others: I've been playing on "very hard." Although I have not seen this mentioned in threads discussing the Peace rating (and I did a search on them just a couple of days ago), at very hard it is not uncommon for the peace rating to rise only 4 points in a year. I've been keeping a record of what it is each year, and in my Tingis, for example (with no crime and nothing ever destroyed by bad guys), every other year there was a rise of only 4 points (and sometimes 2 4-point rises in a row), so that my "perfect" Tingis was finished as soon as I achieved the peace rating, which took 13 years instead of 12. So, in the later scenarios with higher peace ratings, it actually becomes easier to achieve 100 across the board because you have more time and you can build palaces. My Lugdunum did extend past the time the peace rating was achieved, but again I was playing on "very hard," with lower startup funds and lower bailout.

[This message has been edited by Lucy Pevensie (edited 03-10-2002 @ 07:00 AM).]

Two thousand structures and a thousand walkers is the limit.

I have a question about walkers. Since schools produce about 5 school children, are they considered as 5 sprites or 1?

Clifford,

Your new record of 76k is impressive.

There maybe many reasons for the fact that not many 50k cities out there,for example,free time,personal interest,etc.

When I say 50000 is not difficult for a "rome supply wheat" city,it is based on some simple calculations.

Let's take Tomek's amphiopolis for example(the only 50000+ city I've seen).

We know that Tomek built his city with "normaL" conditions,that's why he chose a sounthern state not a northern one,otherwise,he can immediately get 79 free walker/buildings from removing all the prefects(no crime risk in his city),99 free buildings/walkers from wheat farms,about 30 from wheat granaries,and he can remove at least 10 markets in the palace blocks.That's a total of about 240 walkers and 210 buildings(I consider each market for an average of 4 walkers ).What can he do with those 200+ extra walkers/buildings?Without furture optimization for the current layout,he can easily upgrade his tents into small casa and get about 18000 more population(that need no more than 50 building/walkers).He can use the remaining 150+building/walker slot for either upgrading current blocks to higher level or 2-3 new insulae/large casa blocks for another 8000-10000 population.That will be 80000-82000.

Of course,that's theoretical estimation,runing and implementing such a design is not easy:That's a real challenge and will be very difficult.

Personally,I think you shouldn't list Tomek's Amphiopolis in your 50000 club,if the rules of the club allow "Rome supply wheat".No offense here,but I do think that makes a huge difference.

Lucy,

That's a real achievement finishing Lugdunum at "very hard",
I don't like playing at very hard because there is a city mood bug in the beginning:when reaching certain population(300-400),city's mood will worsen drastically for no reason,and often will trigger an Exudus.

Playing at very hard will not affect the possible peace points you can get each year.it will still be 2/2/5/5/...,but when palying at very hard,keeping the city in good mood is not as easy as lower difficulty levels(you should pay higher wages,and set the tax rate lower),and more importantly,you should be more careful with slums(ala tent/shack dwellers),crime risk increment is higher at very hard,and your city is more likely to generate protestors("**** the governor"),If one protestor generated in a certain year,it will take away 1 point from that year's peace rating(4 instead of 5),more protestors in that year won't take furthur damage,and it won't affect the next year's PR. If the map has got some military actions like Tingis,then it is possible to loss more points from building being destroyed(each of the first 12 buildings destroyed counts as one point, walls, tents, wells, aquaducts, prefects,engineers are not considered as "buidings" in such situation).You had quite a few tents in the city for several years,do you? Lugdunum is famous for its food problems.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 03-10-2002 @ 10:39 AM).]

Plebus,
If Tomek had instead built his map with "Rome supplies wheat", then he couldn't have had any palaces, which invalidates the calculations. But I agree with your main point that there is no point in comparing cities built on "normal" maps with those built on maps where Rome supplies wheat--it'd be like comparing sprite-limited maps on PCs with those on Macs.

Duan Xuan,
I think that anything that moves independently (like each school kid or soldier) is a walker sprite.

Well, to keep you all happy, Theo's city doesn't have Rome supplies wheat. And I am still happy with 76,000 however I achieved it.

Brugle,

I have no experiences on custom maps Do you mean that when "Rome supply wheat" is activated,building palaces will be impossible?If it is true,I completely agree with you.

Have you received my mail with Valentia save attached?I've heard that some of the IP adress from China is blocked by U.S servers recently as they became a source of spam mails.Please give me a line if you have received it.

Plebus,
2 days ago I got your email, downloaded the saves, and sent a quick reply. I just resent the reply--let me know if it gets through. I haven't looked at the saves yet, but I might get time to do that today.

When Rome supplies wheat, it takes Mercury's blessing to put a second food in a granary, and even then market buyers won't get it, so the best possible housing is large insulae.

Brulge,I've got your reply,thanks.

Well done Clifford. I can't beat 76000 with my existing map.
I might give the Rome supplies wheat idea a try.

Plebus, I should probably make a new thread about this and maybe others could contribute to my findings.

As I've mentioned, I've been playing through the career on very hard, with the goal of achieving cities with prosperity 100, culture 100 and favor 100. I have been keeping track of the peace ratings because I noticed they did not increase reliably. Sometimes 5, sometimes 4, sometimes 4 two years in a row.

I pay 4 above Rome in wages, there is NO crime, NO buildings have ever been destroyed by invaders, I have never even been in debt (I do accept the bailout gift, but that's it--no debt after that). People always "love me" or "idolize me as a god." And yet, for no reason whatever, the peace rating will increase only 4 points in a year. In other words, none of the conditions you suggest for a lowering of peace rating when playing on other difficulty levels is present, nor indeed could it be if I wanted to get my prosperity rating up to 100 in as short a time as possible.

Sometimes, I have reloaded and played the end of the year, and found the peace rating to rise a different number (if it was 4 before, now it's 5, and vice versa). This leads me to believe that this is a random effect introduced in the very hard level, but I haven't found any other information about this.

Lucy,

There are no possiblities other than protestors and detroyed buidings which will decrease the peaceing rating you gained each year,and there are no random aspect on it except which house will generate protestor and when.It could happened when the overall city mood is at the top("people idolized you as a god") and the crime risk column on the overlay could be quite low(below 1/4).Very Hard is not as forgiving as lower difficulty levels,people will endure less time before you supply them with food(probably within 6 months).If your city has no slums at all except when developing new communities,then this the only reason I can think of.

It will be a good idea to open a new thread if you wish to discuss it furthur and hear from the others.

Hmmm...I've just run a test on very hard with a good city(100/100 with prosperity/culture,city mood at top): protestor will be generated within 3 months from being occupied(and crime risk will rise to about one tile high within one month),if the house did not get food.It will generate crime risk immediatly and could generate a protestor within the month if there is no water when get occupied!(It will be pacified 2 months after getting food).Consequently,the city get 4 peace points in that year.Very hard is indeed very hard!Lucy,you should be proud of yourself.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 03-11-2002 @ 01:09 AM).]

OK,since my previous calculations were based on a foolish assumption,let's validate it with a new one,to find out what the possible limit for a "Rome supply wheat" city is.

Still based on Tomek's Amphiopolis,moving it to norhthern climate.

(Note:The number of walkers will be decided by the average number "on stage".I'll use b for buidings and w for walkers)

By removing palace bloaks(but leaving those hovels, tents,warehouses,engineers,pottery/oil industy,reservoirs nearby intact ),we can get about 465b/320w (50 markets,each counts as 3 walkers),we can get 47 b/22w from wheat farms,18 b/9 w from wine industry;another 21b /33w from fishing warf,6 b from fish/vege granaries.Adding these numbers with which I listed in the previous post(with minor modifications):79b/79w from prefects,99b/50w from wheat farms,13b/26w from markets serving the 4 small casa blocks.The total free buiding/walker slot we can get is about 780 buildings and about 460 walkers.We also lost 20000 populations from 100 palaces.

With the number of pottery,funiture and oil left(2880 units per product),we can build 3 large insulae block,with 40 houses each.That is 120 houses/10080 population,and will use about 170 buildings and 90 walkers(9 markets,6 schools,3 for each of liberay,barbar,clinic,bath,temple, forum,theatre and amphitheatre,two entertainment schools counts as 8 walkers). (Actually,buiding more large insulae (about 1/3 of thepopulation and the others is small case is a more logical solution,for the finance and the number of buildings)

Now we still have over 600b/450 walkers left,and will use them to build new casa blocks and upgrade the 2 gigiantic tents blocks(using Tomek's own casa block as reference,not neccessarilly being the most "logical" method,since this is just a theoretical analysis).

Tomek's small casa block use an average of 4 w/27 b( 19 houses,3 fountains, one reservoir,plus temple,theatre and liberary).To upgrade his tents(about 440 tents) to small casa,according these ratio(3 b/w per 19 houses,engineer already there),that will take about 70 b/w,and we get about 16000 more population(surpose we have to remove some tents for services).With the remaining 530b/380w,we can build at least 17 Tomek's small casa block,or 323 small casa=21964 population,consider about 56 additional oracles,with 10+b/300w slot left.(problem:do we have so much space for these new blocks?perhaps we have to rearrange the existing blocks and make use of the space for food production,which is removed from the map,or we should design a more efficient block)

As a conclusion,the bottem line of the population(my method of calculation is conservative) for the city of "Amphiopolis Living On Rome's Wheat" is 34K(54-20,palaces)+10k(large insulae)+16k(upgrade tents)+22k (small casa)=82K

I think this is a reasonable number,as Catilina had made a 162k Mac version,which doubles the PC sprites limits,having half of that on PC is acceptable.For a city of "Rome supply wheat",space and number of buildings are the more limiting factor than walkers.The only obstacle remained towards this goal is to have control over the number of immegrants:I'm still wondering about how Tomek can keep all his citizens alive after 138 years(otherwise,each year's dead citizens will trigger hundreds of new immegrants and ruin the whole effort)? By keeping the city health at average?

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 03-11-2002 @ 01:30 PM).]

Quoted from Plebus:

Fortunately, this isn't correct. Dead citizens are replaced by newborns (at turn of the year). In stable cities (all houses fully occupied) births and deaths have a tendency to settle down (depending on the city's health). Health at below average is acceptable (the fewer clinics the fewer sprites); perfect health isn't - the mortality rate is too low and centenarians doesn't die at all (i.e. even though they are not reported by the population advisor, they don't make room for newborns in the houses.)