I thought the 'spawning' point and the returning point of walkers are always the same??

Duan Xuan,
No, for most "random" walkers, the start and finish tiles can be different.

joshofet, given a permanent road network, prefects' , engineers' and tax collectors' start and finish points are identical - in contrary to most "random" walkers. You can't force them to walk very long patrols with this technique.

It isn't possible to force engineers to always walk all the way round, but I have been able to have a stable loop of about 300 tiles with just two engineers at the end points. The loop almost closes on itself, to force priests and librarians to walk around.

Sometimes engineers make very long walks, of about 200 tiles. I did observe that in a city consisting of just a single road of 3000 tiles. It appears that if you bend the road back on itself, the engineer will walk further in the same direction towards his home building, rather than turning back to the exact spawning point. The road looks like this

Legend

(The glyphs work, great utility!, The dotted road tiles indicate long road ... .) The librarian always walks round the whole loop on his return trip, both engineers take the long road once or twice out of four.

Not all engineers make the long walks, and those who do, do so only one or two times out of the four repeating walks. It did take some micromanagement to have the two engineers walk out of fase, but I have a stable layout of a city now based upon this concept which can house 122k+ people. It just needs a few more hours running to get everyone in, I'm now at 60k and the population increase is just 3-4k/year game time. I can send you the city when it's finished.

I observed the long walk also with tax collectors, actors, and gladiators. I haven't built any prefect, as I'm working in Northern climate. My question was, has anyone experience with this type of forced walk.

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 06-17-2002 @ 06:11 AM).]

I did test the 'Forced walkers' follow the Brugle post(Pharaoh forum).

Example:
I built a temple and bult a road which have the different starting point and ending point.
The priest can walk in a very long distant. (whole map I think).

BUT it can happend only when the ending point is on the north(top-left) and the starting point is on west or sout h (not east).

What 's wrong?
Please advises,
I may not understanding the Brugle post.

Note: Market is different,you cannot touch the corner(south-east) otherwise it doesn't work.

[This message has been edited by Nop (edited 06-18-2002 @ 05:29 AM).]

Nop

In my layout I have my temple connected like this

Top is NW. The mirror configuration also works OK. If you have both loops, the priest can walk both loops. As far as I can see that agrees with Brugle's findings. Spawning point is tile #3 on the SE, and as there are two possible return tiles on the NE, the one on the NW is chosen. in practice I always check whether the loop works before I complete it.

My service center in the city I refer to above looks like this:

Legend

I need the extra free tile to the NE of the temple, otherwise it doesn't work. That doesn't seem to agree with Brugle. This gives full coverage for temple, clinic, theatre, library and engineer to a 300 tile loop. The mirror loop is slightly different.

If the clinic is replaced with a tax collector that also covers the whole loop. Apparently also tax collectors, like enigineers can be forced to make the long walk occasionally.

The walkers don't walk very long loops, I think the limit is about 480 tiles. That's a very long loop, it takes the walkers 9 months to complete it, and as houses need coverage every six months it's not very practical.

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 06-19-2002 @ 06:37 AM).]

I did the testing again yesterday.
Now I understand.
(Top is north east)
The starting points (3x3) are

--123
12---4
11---5
10---6
--987

And the ending points (include corner) are

-1-2-3-4-5
-6---------7
-8---------9
10-------11
12131415

Engineer and Forum also follow the very loop regardless the above paragraph if you have 2 sides of the building connected the road. BUT not all walkers(engineer and Forum) work like that (1 of 4 I think).

About the prefecture, I can not force them to work in the long loop.

[This message has been edited by Nop (edited 06-20-2002 @ 02:21 AM).]

I think its time to bring this thread back alive. This trick could be useful in contest and maybe others haven't realized this so far too.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 01-24-2014 @ 10:29 AM).]

Hi,

The new file is HERE.
Replaced dead link on 24 January 2014

Walkers
I. As you know most walkers in c3 are random walkers. They walk around up and down. Librarians, Priests, bathhouse workers, engineers, market sellers... all are random walkers.
II. Also there are destination walkers. These are going to a certain place. For instance farm cartpushers going to granaries, gladiators going to colleseum, market buyers going to granaries are all destnation walkers.
But there is a third kind walker.
III. Forced Walkers: These are not well known so first let me explain what they are. If you start a road on one side of a building and end on the other side the walker of that building will start walking from one side and will end on the other side. Forced walkers are random walkers who are forced to make a trip and can not walk somewhere else. They must start from one side and end on the other side.

Before you read more I suggest downloading the Demonstration City . The city is divided into 4 sections.
Section 1.Look at the Ceres temple when you open the map. The priest is leaving the temple from the right road and than he returns from the left road. All these 3 temples here are working examples. Follow the priest from the long road to see where he walks.

Section 2. These two are non working examples for forced walkers. They are wrong orientiert. In other words you need to turn them 90 degree.

Section 3. These two are examples to show that forced walkers can be very useful in long distances. Also forced walkers can walk on gardens and they pass gatehouses.

Section 4. Here some buildings (library, temple, theater) have no houses near them but they work. This example is to show that labor seekers can be forced walkers too.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 01-24-2014 @ 10:33 AM).]

My problem is, sometime the granary is annoy at force walkers to go right ways, many times I've seen the walkers go around and around inside the granary, then they comeback to their starting point !
The only way I forced walkers is, let them decide which way first, then build the road. But sometimes this trick not work, they still walk wrong ways. Force walker is a really hard problem.

sometime the granary is annoy at force walkers to go right ways, many times I've seen the walkers go around and around inside the granary, then they comeback to their starting point !

The term "forced walker", as it is used here, has a very specific meaning. (I don't like the term, but it is commonly used in this forum.) Read reply #9. (I don't consider a "forced walker" to be a third kind of walker.) Your walker who wanders around (perhaps inside a granary) and then returns to its building approximately by the same route that it left would not be considered a "forced walker".

There is no need to use "forced walkers" (or "long walkers", as I prefer to call them) in most gameplay. I have used them in a few contests, but not in a "regular" C3 mission.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 11-21-2008 @ 09:16 AM).]

Hi,

I run some tests and found how a forced engineer exactly works.

Here is a sav file with a forced engineer that makes 4 forced trips out of 4.

So far, in the past, what I did was to build as many engineers as possible where I want one, and then check if any of them work. Usually one or two of them would work and would make 1 forced trip in 4.

I guess I didn't have the patience to study the theory behind it. After reading StephAmon's article a few times I tested engineers with the routing centres around them and it turns out it is very simple.



The engineer picks one target tile to walk to in each routing centre. He chooses the tile with the highest priority (lowest number) that has a road connection.

The engineer disappears when reaching a target tile. Then starts a new walk to the next target.

In 3 of the routing centres he can walk to tile number 1, in the forth he can walk to tile 49.

Some buildings might expand their routing centres from 7x7 to 13x13 if there is no walkable target in the 7x7. However that is not the case for a forced engineer. He will only target tiles within the 7x7.

Edit: This is incorrect. He does use 13x13 if needed.

Because he can chose only one target in each centre he must not have the forced loop start road crossing a higher priority tile. In the image above you see the engineers starting road bends around the centre to avoid it. You don't need to entirely avoid it as long as you don't hit a higher priority tile. If you do, that target won't work for a forced walk. Then you are left with 3 forced trips out of 4.

In the following image in the first example the highest priority tile he can walk to is number 2 and is on the long end of the loop. So that will lead to a forced walk.

In the second example tile number 1 has a road connection and it is from the start side of the loop so it won't work.



Note: Top right is North. I changed StephAmon's routing centres and their points to make it right with this orientation because he has North in top left in his article.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 07-04-2012 @ 01:55 PM).]

Quoted from Philon:

However that is not the case for a forced engineer. He will only target tiles within the 7x7.

Not true (in all the tests I have run). An engineer also uses the full 13x13 walking grid if necessary.

Quoted from Philon:

Top right is North.

You can put top right anywhere you want. However, since most of the quotes (having to do with walker behavior) have been in the Pharaoh: Game Help forum, most have north at the top-left.

I have a few excel files with designs on them and I needed North on top left. So I changed the orientation. I didn't say the other way was incorrect. It is just different and I'm sure it is all right for Pharaoh.

Yes it appears the engineer uses the 13x13 if needed.

I was hoping to be able to generate forced walkers for other services using the routing centres instead start and finish tiles like you normally do. However only the engineer and tax collector seem to make forced trips with this technique and that's the only way they do.

Here is something new I just found out:
Garden tiles on routing centre don't count as targets even if they are walkable to. This makes it easier to avoid the centre on the starting side of the loop like this:



Btw, I want to thank you for redirecting me to StephAmon's article. First I wasn't too interested in the subject. I'm not too keen on too much theory. But then I found ways to integrate it into a better design. I guess I'm a design guy.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 07-04-2012 @ 02:08 PM).]

Hi,

I just checked again you were right. Even the forced engineer uses 13x13 if needed.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 07-04-2012 @ 02:08 PM).]

I just realised that the U shaped roads around the 7x7 won't avoid the centre because the roads are within the 13x13. I have removed that image now. This subject is tricky.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 07-04-2012 @ 02:04 PM).]

Quoted from Philon:

Have you tested the 13x13 with a forced engineer?

Yes, quite a few times.

Quoted from Philon:

I can confirm that the random engineer uses the 13x13 as you say however forced engineer doesn't.

Show what you did. Perhaps you discovered something new. However, my guess is that I'll show you what you did wrong.

Quoted from Philon:

In the image above you see that he walks to tile number 49 in one of the routing centres. If you delete just that road tile, he should still walk there because the remaining road is well within 13x13. But he doesn't.

If you mean the first diagram in reply #12, then if the tile labelled 49 is deleted, the next tile he will go to is the one to the east of the tile labelled 32. As expected.

Quoted from Philon:

Normally forced walkers are generated by using the starting and finishing tiles of a building except an engineer where you need to use the routing centres.

No, not true. Tax collectors are the same as engineers. Entertainers can use both methods (the only walkers who can use both, as far as I know). See my Palace Peaks (or LuxPal256) for use of tax collectors and hippodrome riders.

Quoted from Philon:

Garden tiles on routing centre don't count as targets even if they are walkable to.

Yes, many years old.

Quoted from Philon:

The green tiles crossing the centre are gardens.

Yes, but they won't work in the diagram you gave since the routing center extends out to 13x13.

I see now that you fixed this while I was typing. Just for fun, I'll leave it.

Keep working. Eventually you should catch up.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-04-2012 @ 02:13 PM).]

Hi Brugle,
You caught me before I removed the incorrect statements. Well done catching the error with the U shape around the 7x7 which is now gone.

I see now what you did with the hippodrome racer. I shall run some tests as soon as possible. I wonder how many tiles he chariot will run to reach the target tiles because he runs so much faster. That's a lot of walkers saved right there.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 07-04-2012 @ 02:27 PM).]

Quoted from Philon:

I wonder how many tiles he chariot will run to reach the target tiles because he runs so much faster.

I'd guess the same maximum as most other long-distance walkers--either 499 or 500 tiles. (The distances that hippodromes travel in my LuxPal256 is, I think, over 400 tiles.)

Quoted from Brugle:

I'd guess the same maximum as most other long-distance walkers

The exceptions to that appear to be entertainers on this particular type of walk. The target needs to be within 500 tiles but the walker will actually disappear after 6 months walk, so only the hippodrome chariot actually has time to reach a target up to 500 tiles away. Other entertainers manage 320 tiles max.

Hi Trium,

My numbers from earlier tests are slightly different. I wrote down 500 tiles max for entertainer dispatch and chariots will disappear after 428 tiles, lions, gladiators and actors after 216 tiles.

There is big difference between your 320 and my 216. Also between your 500 for chariots and my 428. I will check again.

As a sidenote I have 534 tiles max loop for forced walkers and 287 tiles max loop for houses to maintain access to services. Only market sellers can make use of forced loops that are longer than 287 tiles.

I use the delete tool and divide deleting cost to 2 (it costs 2Dn per tile) to find any road length then I extract number of corner tiles.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 07-08-2012 @ 03:34 PM).]

Quoted from Trium:

the walker will actually disappear after 6 months walk, so only the hippodrome chariot actually has time to reach a target up to 500 tiles away. Other entertainers manage 320 tiles max.

I'm pretty sure that walkers who are going from their "schools" to their venues will disappear after 4 months, so Philon's figures on this are correct.

However, that wasn't what Philon was asking. In my Palace Peaks, the hippodrome chariot (from the chariot maker) goes 0 tiles to the hippodrome. The other chariots (from the hippodrome) can go the maximum distance, as can the actors from the theaters and amphitheaters. The gladiators (from gladiator schools) go only 3 tiles. The lions (from lion pits) go much farther, those from the NW lion pit go a long distance (over 150 tiles, I'd guess) while those from the SE lion pit go the maximum distance (something like 216 tiles) before disappearing.

Quoted from Philon:

I wrote down 500 tiles max for entertainer dispatch and chariots will disappear after 428 tiles, lions, gladiators and actors after 216 tiles.

I'm not sure what this means. If it means that entertainers when generated by their venues will go the entire distance, while entertainers from their "schools" will only go for 4 months, that is essentially correct.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-08-2012 @ 07:06 PM).]

Quoted from Philon:

I will check again

Please don't bother - as Brugle points out it's 4 months not 6 and it's school walkers not venue walkers, so I double-misremembered!

As a sidenote I have 534 tiles max loop for forced walkers

'Forced' loops nearing or exceeding 500 tiles can only work if walkers are made to move within 500 tiles of 'home' during the outbound and/or random phases of their walks. A walker who is further away than that on converting to 'go-home' mode will disappear.

[This message has been edited by Trium (edited 07-09-2012 @ 11:02 AM).]

In 2008 I was participating in a CBC Caesar3 team contest. There were a bunch of bathhouses that needed forced walker loops and one of my teammates said that he didn't know all the combinations to create forced walkers.

I provided a few designs that worked and it was sufficient. But the truth is I didn't know all the combinations either and at the time I had no idea why some tiles would work and others wouldn't.

Recently I thought, wouldn't it be great if I have all the combinations for forced walkers on an excel page?

So I spent a few hours running a few hundred tests for 2x2 and 3x3 buildings and came up with lots of designs that worked.

I though I had done a good job. That is until I read about Brugle's earlier research for Pharaoh on start a finish points of random walkers.

In fact I didn't need to run any tests at all and you can find out all the combinations with a theoretical method with some simple mathematical elimination process. Plus, with the trial and error method it is always possible that you might miss a few combinations, which in fact I did.



In the image 'B' stands for a barber, 'L' for library and 'A' for academy.

So far what I did is to take Brugle's numbers and adjust them to make top right the North. Also I put together the start and finish tiles in one graphic. It shows the blue start tiles and the yellow finish tiles together.

The numbers show the order of priority in case more than one road tile touches the building. The road tile that exists and has the lowest number will be picked.

If blue1 has a road (not garden) then the random walk will start here. If there is a road on yellow1 then it will finish here.

First the results. These are all combinations that work for 1x1, 2x2 and 3x3 buildings to create forced loops. The blue tile is the start tile and the yellow tile the finish tile.



You mights say, "Wait a minute. For 2x2 buildings there are 8 start and 12 finish tiles. So there are 8*12=96 possible combinations. But the final result has only 18".

The reason is because in the combined image for library with the blue and yellow colours, you see that for example blue2 and yellow3 are the same tile. If blue2 is the starting tile, then the finish tile can only be a smaller number than yellow3, otherwise the walker will start and finish on the same tile. So the finish tile can be either yellow1 or yellow2 but the start and finish tiles can't be touching tiles either so this leaves us with only yellow1 if the starting tile is blue2.

There is one more detail to know if you have gardens in your forced loop and the finish tile is not a corner tile. For example for the library blue4-yellow7 is a case where both the finish and start tiles are touching the side of the building. This combination will always work if the forced loop consists only from road tiles and no garden tile.

If your forced loop is a combination of garden and road tiles then it will work if the length of the road on the blue4 side is longer than the length of the road on yellow7.

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 07-16-2012 @ 05:19 AM).]

Hi,

Here is an image that shows why a prefect or engineer can't be a forced walker:



On top you see that a barber will start from one of the 4 side tiles and will finish on any of the 8 surrounding tiles. That makes it possible to create forced walkers like it is shown in the example in the image.

In that example the barber will start walking from the bottom tile which is shown as blue 2. When it comes to returning to the building, it has to make a choice between returning from where it started or returning from the top right corner. The bottom tile is the fifth preferred tile (yellow 5) and top right is the first (yellow 1). Naturally it will return on top right, completing a long walk.

But prefects and engineers will start from any of the 8 surrounding tiles including corners. Also their start and finish tiles have exactly the same priority order.

So if you apply the barber example to the prefect you see that the prefect will start from the corner tile. Yes they do!. Try to build the prefect shown at the bottom of the image.

I too thought that was weird when I first saw it. This is the reason why forced walkers for prefects and engineers are not possible. If you try to make them finish at number 1 priority corner tile (yellow 1) yes they will finish there but they will also spawn from there which means they won't make a long walk.

The only thing you can do is to eliminate the randomness of a prefect or engineer by using a gatehouse and forcing the walker to circle on a loop indefinitely. Here is a save file:

circling-prefects.sav

The circling prefect and engineer works because the gatehouse provides these functions:

It eliminates options for which way to walk when dispatched and it enables a path to return to dispatch tile without adding a second direction during start of the walk. Instead using a gatehouse to complete the loop you could use a garden or road tile but then during dispatch the walker will have another direction to walk.

Another thing that the gatehouse does is to eliminate some of the different patrol directions. I think random walkers have 4 different patrol directions.

In the layout below there are two almost identical designs. In both cases the gatehouse eliminates a second direction during dispatch while at the same time providing a way to return to start tile.

So both of them should work, right? No they don't. In the first design, in every 4.th patrol the prefect will start walking and return back after 7 tiles. In the second design it doesn't do that.




Legend

[This message has been edited by Philon (edited 12-25-2013 @ 10:54 PM).]