Some players use the term 'forced walker' to mean a 'random' walker that is 'forced' to follow a long path between its starting and finishing tiles, since that path is actually the shortest one. ('Forced' is not very descriptive, since everything in the game is forced to do whatever it does, but it's hard to come up with a good name.)

Most 'random' walkers can start and end their walks on different tiles, and can therefore (if the roads are built properly) travel quite a long distance. One road arrangement that works for many buildings is to have a road that runs along both the southeast and northwest sides of a building--the walker will start its walk on the southeast side and end its walk on the northwest side, and will travel hundreds of tiles (if necessary) to get from one to the other. Other road arrangements also work, but many don't.

If this is hard to understand, try it. Load a blank map. Build 2 long parallel roads separated by 2 tiles running northeast-southwest. Connect the roads at one end. At the other end, build a temple between the roads and several houses, and perhaps a prefecture and engineer post for fire and damage protection. The labor-seeker for the temple should start on the southeast side and walk all the way around to the other side. Soon after the temple is staffed, the priest should do the same thing.

'Forced walkers' can make building large cities easier. But, as Tomek's Amphipolis showed, they are not necessary either for large populations or for lots of palaces.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 11-02-2003 @ 02:50 AM).]

Thank you for explaining so clearly , Brugle . I have never tried because I didn't know what it was either. Maybe I will try soon. It's a bit like stockpiling food. Just something I haven't got my head around. Once you do something then its always easy after that. Before you have done something it seems impossible.

Correction Brugle, 'forced' workers will not follow the path we have laid out if it is too long. (too long as in around five hundred if memory serves me right). And my compliments to you Brugle, your saved games that i downloaded are simply amazing.
By the way, could anyone pls send me a saved Toletum?

[This message has been edited by Alexander e Grt (edited 11-02-2003 @ 06:50 AM).]

Hi maximus_webb,
the first time I heard about forced walkers was when I read Joshofet's and Brugle's posts. Joshofet's famous thread is here and the first message is linking to Brugle's thread. I was very surprised about this information since its almost unbelivable. Another reason for my surprise was this being so unknown around folks. When looking at its benefits I think this feature can be one of the most useful tactics in many situations. In joshofet's thread there is a good explanation about it and Brugle already explained it very well here, so there is not much to add.
If anyone cant do it just send me a sav file and I will send back after making it work.
Almost all service buildings such as temples, clinics, threaters, amphitheathers, bathouses, libraries, acedemies, hospitals, forums, barbers can be used this way, prefects, and schools cant. Also engineers make 3 ordinary trips and a long trip when being forced.
One of the most useful details about forced walkers is that they can walk over gardens. I suggest having a look at this demonstration file. This allows connecting parts without giving them road access.

I belive in contests this feature can be useful and might come accross one day. If I had known this before I would put it in Advanced Caesar3 Tutorials. Maybe I will do this later and you might see how it works by just putting a building here and there on a prepared place.

[This message has been edited by philon (edited 11-02-2003 @ 09:39 AM).]

Alexander e Grt,

Yes, many walkers won't try go more than 500 or so road tiles, but how does that indicate a "correction" to my reply #1?

I haven't built Toletum or many other cities from the City Construction Kit. Tolentum doesn't seem to have any unusual problems (unless there are difficult invasions)--why do you want a save of it?

philon,

'Forced walkers' can be useful when near one of the sprite limits or in contest events when a few extra denarii might have a large effect, but I doubt that they would be much use in regular C3 play. (They would be of more potential use in Pharaoh play, where certain buildings consume possibly-rare goods, but even there I rarely see appropriate conditions except in contests.)

With continuous micromanagement, prefects can be 'forced walkers'. For example: make a long loop that includes a gatehouse and has a prefecture not far from the gatehouse. Delete a road tile between the prefect and the prefecture when the prefect is a moderate distance away (perhaps 20 tiles), then replace the road tile when the prefect is a long distance from the prefecture (perhaps halfway around the loop). In a contest that allows free roads and deletes, this costs nothing except effort. (Perhaps a lot of effort--the tiresome micromanagement that is required to do well in some contests is one reason that I rarely enter them.)

Hi Brugle,
except the possibilities you mentioned I can think of one more possibility for contests. In some contests space might play an important role. I remember Cliff's mediterranean contest where winning criteria was # of villas and an old HG contest wich was about building most large insulaes. I think in both maps FW's could be suitable. Ceratinly if houses dont need to be fully occupied or if population isnt important using the space wich isnt needed yet by non evolved houses or desirability structures could be considered. And service buildings could be deleted just before the evolve.
Well, like all small details thats one more feature to keep in mind.
For career maps certainly FW's arent neccesary but I think it would be interesting using them.

I used FW's in both casa and palace blocks in the Londinium career map in order to try and build as many palaces as possible. Still ended up at the sprite limit (cart pushers with clay and timber would just disappear as soon as they spawned, with predictable results) but I got to 50ish LP's.

Brugle,
you said "the walker will start its walk on the southeast side and end its walk on the northwest side, and will travel hundreds of tiles (if necessary) to get from one to the other". Perhaps i'm just making your "hundreds of tiles" clearer a bit.

The first time i played Toletum, let's just say i failed thoroughly. i built houses at the edge of the map without realising that was the invasion point, and the location where my palaces are is destroyed by a major earthquake. the rest of the map is mostly mountainous and i find it hard to house my population there. i think you will find it quite challenging. that's why i wanted a saved of it.

[This message has been edited by Alexander e Grt (edited 11-03-2003 @ 04:28 AM).]

I sent you a save already, Alexander. Check your mail (I sent it to the email in your profile, btw).

Sorry to double-post. I tried creating a forced Engineer last night but it doesn't seem to work. I laid out the roads in a north-east to south-west direction.

Oddly, the labour seeking citizen walker was produced at the south-east side of the Post. It walked along the road for a very long distance and finished his rounds at the north-west side. That's a forced walker, no doubt.

The problem I had was that the Engineer was produced at the north-west side and was unable to be a forced walker. He simply turned around and returned to that side, not finishing his rounds. This went on for two times. I didn't have time to continue so I do not know if he will only become a forced walker once out of four rounds.

Hi DX,
Paralel roads orientiert northeast to soutwest will work for all buildings wich can be used for forced walkers. Paralel roads orientiert northwest to southeast wont work for any of them (maybe only for an amphitheater it works).
Also not all buildings work the same way when being forced to make trips. Engineer is one of these rare buildings. When you play the Ephesus or Pergamon map and check the demage overlays you will see what I mean. They make 3 ordinary and one long trip. I suggest using a barber or doctor if you want to test a place for 1x1 building. A temple, librarian, bathouse would be suitable to test a place for 2x2 buildings but not a theater since theaters seem to work in conditions wich others dont work.

[This message has been edited by philon (edited 11-03-2003 @ 11:12 PM).]

Oh, so engineers are different. What about prefects then?

You see, I was thinking of how I would build my city for Cliff's Century Palace idea, and I thought of having long stretches of tents. I thought of using forced walkers (for engineers and prefects) but it looks like it would be quite impractical...?

Hi DX,
Prefects and schools cant be used for forced walkers. Though its possible to use a prefect when continuously micromanaging -as Brugle mentioned somewhere- it would be only suitable for a contest and not for your plan for century of palaces club.
I think using FW's in your city could be practical. My suggestion is building 3 or more blocks with 38 palaces. This is easier to manage and one raw matterial and two workshops are enough for 40 houses (except wine for palaces) so warehouses will be full all time.
In such blocks you would need only one service building for almost all of them. Certainly you would need 3 temples and two or 3 schools. I guess one engineer would be enough for the housing part. With 3 or 4 such blocks you wouldnt need to worry about building limit so using 4 warehouses for each block will prevent many problems. Also overproducing food a little and having a little more than enough markets would make life easier.
For ensuring that there are always enough goods I evolved houses step by step. For instance I waited until the warehouse is again ful with pottery before evolving small casas. I think thats a good starategy since both houses and markets are storing goods and its better to know they have it all the time.
When completing the city in a stable way it is always possible to delete not needed buildings such as extra farms, markets etc.
I have 60 palaces in each block so there are more problems to deal and thats delaying completing the map. Blocks with 38 palaces should work efficient since I have no service building access problems but only food and goods. But when blocks are smallar the probability of markets passing houses frequently is rising. I guess 12 markets would be a good start for 38 palaces.

Thanks everyone, I haven't tried Brugle's strategy yet but I will try it tonight. Since the road is separate by 2 tiles, should I put the engineer post and prefecture at the southeastern end of the road since they are only 1x1? And then they should walk all the way around?

Thank you for all your help.

maximus_webb,
Without micromanagement, a prefect or engineer can't be a 'forced walker', since he will end his walk at the same tile that he begins. In the setup described in reply #1 (which was simply a way that anyone could quickly see how to make a random walker go a long distance), just put the prefecture and engineer post where they'll cover the temple and the huts at the start of their walks.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 11-06-2003 @ 12:51 PM).]

I agree with you Brugle about prefects, but to my experience engineers (and tax collectors) can be made to make something like a forced walk too. If I understand Philon correctly he corroborates my findings and is using architects to cover long loops. It takes some experimenting, but engineers will walk forced loops. The difference is that they don't do it every walk, they disappear at the end of their long walk, and the road does not have to make a full loop. I have had architect posts with their spawning point at the SE tile on the SW end of a SW to NE road, making a loop to the tile N of the architect post. They made the long walks. I even have had "loops" with the end two tiles away to the NW with the architect walking the full loop. At the end the architect teleports back to his home building. I used those in Maarssenbroek. I think Philon has seen other configurations too, I noticed some odd placings in Pergamum. I don't know the rule, maybe Philon does, I just use trial and error.

BTW much of this carries over to Pharaoh, where architects and fire marshalls do take forced loops, but courthouse judges won't.

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 11-07-2003 @ 10:18 AM).]

In my 50k city that I'm working on, I have the block set up something like this:

(F) (F)
MMThTh
MMThTh
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
TTPHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHR
TTEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHR
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
LL F F FMM
LL MM

(R=Road; T=Temple; P=Prefecture; E=Engineer; H=Housing; M=Market; Th=Theater; L=Library; F=Fountain)

I'm not too crazy about the fountains being on the outside of the housing block, but I can later add houses to the outside of the block where the fountains are; and fountains can be added to the back side (see the F's with parentheses around them) along with more housing. So I like this block because about 70-75% of its squares are used for housing yet it still provides stable small casa.

As far as the forced walkers go, the engineer, priest, and librarian all make forced walks. The prefect goes up the top side but provides coverage to all the houses; however, when more houses are added to the south side where the fountains are, another prefecture will have to be added next to the library to provide fire protection for those houses.

I think this block is fairly efficient, but does anyone have any ideas as to how I can improve it?

Well...the top one didn't exactly come out as I had hoped
. I'll try to email it to a few people so they can see for themselves, if you want.

Joshofet,
you are right about engineers. They can be forced walkers without continuously micromanaging but as you said not all trips they make are forced walks. The engineers so far I have seen make 3 ordinary trip (they returned after around 20 tiles and didnt dissapear) and than a long trip. About rules how to place buildings between roads there are too many exceptions so it would be better to test if a building works in a certain situation or not. When buildings are placed between paralel roads from norteast to soutwest and when both sides of the building are connected to these roads it works always. For other possibilities it depends on the situation. Sometimes even if two roads arent connected to the building it might work.

maximus_webb,
are you planning to use forced markets too? Market sellers can be good forced walkers. But you need to be sure that the granary is connected to the road on the southeast side of the market so the market buyer can get food without walking all along the loop.

[This message has been edited by philon (edited 11-08-2003 @ 08:37 PM).]

Yes, philon, I am using market traders as forced walkers as well. It is very efficient; the only trouble arises when there is not enough food at the market to go around, requiring the use of an additional market (usually this only occurs in the very long housing blocks. My housing blocks range anywhere from 10 tiles to 85 tiles long.).

I must edit something I said in an earlier reply. I said "As far as the forced walkers go, the engineer, priest, and librarian all make forced walks." Rather, the engineer usually went about 20 or 25 tiles, and then turned around and went back the other way without disappearing. But yes, about 1 out of every 4 trips was a forced walk. Philon, you mentioned this in your previous thread.

BTW: Does anyone know if native huts/natives count as buildings and walkers? What about legionaries/sentry guards that patrol the walls?

Yes, native huts count as buildings. Natives themselves and wall sentries also count as walkers. I'm not very sure about the soldiers though, but I think they do?