I might be interested in building a long-time stable CCK Tarracco, depending on its military difficulty, thus taking a break from my no-trade Valentia.

Let me eleborate on the military difficulty for a few moments. Ever since I've got this game in '98 (about 2 weeks after it came out) I have not been able to actually finish the game -- heck, I didn't even pass Lugdunum/Carthago. After I re-installed it a while ago while being bored I found this site, and its huge amount of information has taught me enough to finish the game. However, the first campaign I choose to finish was the peacefull one, in which I have now arrived at Valentia and am taking a somewhat long stop to build it without any trade (see the no trade valentia thread by wedsaz.) Therefore I hardly have any experience on heave military based missions, and would thus probably not be able to finish a hard military mission for the moment.

I will check the military weight of Tarraco somewhere this week and after it decide whether or not I'm going to build it.

If I'm going to build it, I'm going to build it on the fly, dropping a challenge I coppied from Brugle: limited deletions. The rules I _will_ set are:

* Very hard;
* No debt or 'rescue gift'
* No personal funds;
* No cheats of any kind;
* No festivals;
* As little trade as possible, preferably no export after the first 2 years;
* Population of little over 10000;
* 100 prosperity and 100 culture;
* All people eat 2 foods;
* City will remain stable for a very long time.

Btw: If I deem the military weight of this mission too heavy for the moment I will not drop the challenge -- I will merely postpone it untill I got some experience with the harder military missions.

[edit]
After checking out the mission I think I will indeed try to build it before building my no-trade Valentia.
[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 05-01-2006 @ 09:58 PM).]

I forgot to mention that all venues would have shows (2 in amphitheaters and colosseums) at least part of the time, so I edited the opening post.

Quoted from Shenghi:

Looking at CCK Tarraco in the map editor, there is significant military activity. Invasions start out small but increase steadily, usually 4 or 5 years apart. The last 4 invasions are listed as: a) 50 Gauls + 40 Gauls, b) (4 years later) 45 Gauls + 25 Gauls + 40 Locals, c) (5 years later) 120 Gauls, d) (3 years later) 90 Gauls + 20 Locals + 20 Locals. Since the default difficulty is Hard, I would expect somewhat more enemies at Very Hard.

Quoted from Shenghi:

I wanted water trade and land trade and a noticable amount of exports mainly for something to watch during the long free run. Also, I expect that the primary difficulty will be the worker shortage, so having some exports adds to the challenge.

Quoted from Shenghi:

Everyone eating at least 2 foods would be equivalent to my "No houses poorer than grand insula", so I suppose you mean that everyone eats exactly 2 foods. Having no houses better than large villa should make the mission easier, especially if that means not having a hippodrome.

It's certainly possible that my extra rules will require too many workers (or too many walkers). If that happens then I'll try again with rules more like yours.

It is great to see that you are going to build such a city Brugle; it is very similar to what I have in mind to construct, and it is nice to have someone else to compare the task with.

You may be interested in the recent results from my census testing, especially since you will try to achieve 100 culture.

First a little about how people die. The population is split in groups of 0-9, 10-19, 20-29, etc. and the deaths are calculated separately for each group. The same number of people at each age (for example age 0,1,2..9) in the group will die and how many depends on the total number of people in the group and the current health level. Take a look at this image. If nothing chances in this city it will probably never produce another ghost because the number of people that enter the 70-79 group is constant and because they all die before they make 75. Even if small fluctiations occur, the curve will stretch to 76 or 77 but no people will escape to the 80-89 group.

So far I have managed to create rock stable censuses at three health levels: below average, average and good. The work on very good is still in progress, but the preluminary results show that this level will be worse than on good. The three levels have slightly different procentages of workforce, academy youth and school children, listed in the next paragraph. Also, in the 1400 years during which the tests were run only 2 ghosts were produced, and it happened while the census was still fluctuating - once it settled down, no more people could escape from the curve that ended in the 70-79 group.

That being said, it is important to not that the test city had a population of 125120 people, which is high enough to prevent statistical fluctuations. In a city of a little over 2000 that I tried to run on below average health, the census never became so nicely curved as in the 125k city, and the fluctuations allowed people to break from the curve and have a chance to not die and become ghosts. I do not know currently whether 10k will produce a good curve with low or minimal chance for ghosts or whether there will be fluctuations, but in either case, I believe that the rate of ghost creation will be very low.

Now for the three levels.

At below average you will have 28.4% workers, 13.8 academy youth, and 35.5% schoolchildren. The curve ends at about 66. The two disadvantages of this level are the great number of schoolchildren and the closeness of the curve to the next age group.

At an average health level there will be 30.5% workers, 12.8% academy youth and 27.2% schoolchildren. The curve ends at 74, which is very good. Here the % of the workforce is greatest, and the curve promises a very low number of ghosts if any. This is probably the best level for your city.

At a good health level, there will be 29.8% workers, 12.0% academy youth and 24.8% schoolchildren. The curve ends at 78 and gives you high chances for ghost candidates. (although in the test city there were none in the course of about 750 years). You have about just as less workers than on the average level as it would take to fully staff the schools and academies that would be required for the extra young people and schoolchildren on the average level. I would recommend this level only if you are close to the sprite limit, as it requires less schools.

Your goals are very similar to mine. However, I will try to create a city with no worker shortages and perfect citywise coverage for entertainment and hospitals, at the expense of having no exports and importing as many goods as possible (to cut down on the necessary industry workers). my goal population is 11992 (138 grand insulae and 2 luxury palaces) as 12000 is divisible by 500, 800, 1000 and 1500. If no worker shortages turns out to be impossible I will have to reconsider. The CCK maps which look good for now are Lindum, Londinium, Tarraco and Valentia.

One thing I would very much advise against is leaving Rome changes wages. That will effectively prevent you from running the city for thousands of years, and possibly even long enough to see the stable census. Changing it will not make much of a difference playwise, but you will be able to let the city run while you are not at the computer and enjoy a truly timeless city.

[This message has been edited by Trurl (edited 05-02-2006 @ 02:14 PM).]

Brugle,

Oops, I had not noticed that a couple of invasions were scheduled in the same year. Oh well, I'm going to try it anyway.

During the 'timeless' free run I hope not to be at my computer for most of the time, so I don't need anything to watch. Also I hope/expect workers in such a 'big' city will not really depend on a few export industries.

When I set the 'All people eat 2 foods' rule I had somewhat planned on building Grand Insulae only. Only to realise after I posted that I'd need some patrician housing for 100 prosperity. I will change the rule to: 'All people eat at least 2 foods, and those who eat more also drink 2 wines.'

Based on Trurl's reply #3, I decided to have average city health (instead of below average) and to modify the CCK Tarraco map only to eliminate Rome wage changes, and edited the opening post accordingly. I'll discuss both of those in my next post.

Quoted from Shenghi:

I expect to check the city now and then (for ghosts and unexpected problems), and will probably watch the city for a few seconds or minutes some of those times. Maybe I'm weird, but I enjoy seeing a city run smoothly, and selling goods to ships and caravans is a little less repetitive than catching fish and delivering them to a granary.

Quoted from Shenghi:

So do I, but we won't really know unless we try. The Culture 100 rule will require a lot of workers, but some other rules also require workers and add to the challenge. (As you noticed, the 10000 people rule is not one of those--accomplishing everything else would be harder if the city was smaller, but I thought that a fairly large city would be nice.)

Quoted from Shenghi:

The second part of the rule simply forbids grand villas. That's strange.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 05-02-2006 @ 01:41 PM).]

there was a mistake in the % youth for the good health level, it said 10.0% but it should be 12.0%. sorry for that.

good luck to both of you. i'll eagerly await any saves from your cities.

Quoted from Trurl:

I certainly am. In a few test runs during the White Oaks Challenge, I noticed that average health seemed to have a slightly higher minimum worker fraction than below average health, but I discounted the results since the free run in that contest was only 50 years (after only 10 years of development). Also, I didn't realize that a city with average (or even good) health would stabilize and thereafter produce few or no ghosts. I'll take your advice and build my Timeless Tarraco with average city health. Thanks much.

Quoted from Trurl:

All your conclusions seem reasonable and supported by your images. But I have one question: did you determine that deaths are a function of the displayed city health (such as below average), as opposed to being a function of the underlying city health number (which may simply be the fraction of people that have clinic coverage)? In other words, will deaths in a city that has average health be essentially the same, regardless of whether 39% or 45% of people have clinic coverage?

Quoted from Trurl:

My guess (without calculating) is that it will be impossible. Good luck!

Quoted from Trurl:

I am considering having exactly the same houses, but am a little concerned with walkers, since the city will have 96 soldiers and (before invasions are over) up to 130 invaders. I am also considering 10224 people in 118 grand insulae, 1 medium palace, and 1 luxury palace. But since average city health will give me more workers than I expected, I might have more patricians (or more exports).

Quoted from Trurl:

I didn't like the lack of gatehouses (and no invasions) in Londinium and Valentia. But I carelessly overlooked Lindum's northern lake and thought that it didn't have enough fishing! Lindum looks pretty good, but I think I'll stay with Tarraco.

Quoted from Trurl:

With a second computer running C3 alongside one I often use, I don't think I'd have much of a problem running my Tarraco for a few thousand years with Rome wage changes, although it might take a while. But I'll take your advice again and modify the CCK Tarraco map, but only to remove the wage changes. (After all, if wage rates are set high enough then the only advantage from the modification will be not having to click away notifications.)

Brugle,

Quoted from Brugle:

It might be strange, but I _am_ strange. Anyway, the plan was not to have villas, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm planning on having 130 Grand Insulae and 4 Luxury Palaces. I'll probably run a testcity on a custom map to make up a basic block design this week and will then move on to build Tarraco somewhere in the coming month.

[edit]
Btw, what are you going to set the wages to? So that we may be playing the same map
[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 05-02-2006 @ 08:13 PM).]

I've decided to have 10312 people in 118 grand insulae and 2 luxury palaces. While a few thousand more people probably wouldn't be a problem, I want to be sure of not hitting the walker sprite limit, even when invaded by 130 attackers.
[Edit--I changed my mind. See reply #15.]

Quoted from Shenghi:

The wage rate should be somewhat greater than anything expected from years of random changes up and down. What do you think? 60 (double Rome)?

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 05-06-2006 @ 09:49 AM).]

Quoted from Brugle:

60 sounds reasonable, but not right at the start of the mission. I was thinking to concider Rome wages being 32 during the first 2 years, then raising that to 40 in January of the third year. I hadn't actually thought beyond that, but raising it to 60 (68 to allow high taxes) after say 5 years should be affordable. It gives a significant amount of time to get a Luxury Palace going and all (most) other housing up to Grand Insulae (although I was planning on keeping my housing to small casa level for quite some time) so that we are still able to live off tax.

On another note, regarding your 2 shows rule: Did you realise that in the CCK Tarraco a gladiator revolt occurs in 472 BCE? I bring this up because, if I recall correctly, this caused a major change of plans in your no-trade Valentia.

Quoted from Shenghi:

I intend to set the wage rate at the start of the mission and leave it alone. Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'll set it to 60 (Rome+30).

Quoted from Shenghi:

Yes. I expect it to cause some damage, but deleting damage caused by programmed events (invasions, gladiator revolts, flooded clay pits, collapsed iron mines) doesn't violate the "limited deletions" rule in the opening post.

Quoted from Shenghi:

A goal in valentia no trade was to finish with all 4 ratings 100 as quickly as possible. (I wouldn't have set such a goal, but I didn't originate the challenge.) The fastest possible finish (just over 22 years) was determined by Peace and would be impossible if more than a few buildings were damaged in a gladiator revolt, so I took that into account (violating "no use of future knowledge") and redesigned the city without gladiators. Peace is not a concern in Timeless Tarraco.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 05-03-2006 @ 02:42 PM).]

Trurl,
I'd like to know whether you determined if death rates (and therefore various age group demographics) are determined solely by the displayed city health, or whether they vary depending on something else (such as clinic coverage)? In other words, do you have results from cities that have the same displayed city health but different clinic coverages? As an example, do you know if death rates (and the resulting demographics) would be the same in a city with average city health and 40% clinic coverage as in an otherwise identical city that had 46% clinic coverage?

Brugle,

I did only one test for the same health level but different clinic % coverage, and the already stable census did not change. On the other hand, when the health level was changed even by adding very few people to the population visited by a doctor, the census was massively destabilized. So my conclusion was that the % covered by clinic does not matter as long as the health level remains the same.

60 sounds good for the wages. It is extremely improbable that in a city with Rome changes wages both ways will go up that high.

Trurl,
Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. I'll shoot for clinic coverage of around 40% (and average city health).

If my calculations are correct, a somewhat larger city won't hit the walker sprite limit. Therefore, I now intend to have 11992 people in 138 grand insulae and 2 luxury palaces (exactly the same as Trurl), although I might change my mind again.

Quote:

This is great; I was a little worried because of the many schools that will be needed, but haven't made precise calculations.

Quote:

Cool . It will be interesting to compare the two cities, as they will have much in common. I still have not decided between Tarraco and Valentia but unless there are strong reasons in favor of Valentia (mainly the fishing spots), it will be Tarraco, so that the setting is the same.

I started building my Timeless Taracco and am now in the third year. A detailed description will be either edited in this post if nobody replied yet (as I still can't doublepost -- guess I'll have to wait some longer) or otherwise posted in a new reply.

Growth is going much slower than in a usual city for 2 reasons:
1) Obvious reason: because of the census I'll have population only slowly increase.
2) Perhaps a bit less obvious, but with wages at 60 I spend much more money than I expected. Though now I have 2000 Dn spare, so I should be able to start my second export industry.

I planned 4 blocks to be on the north-west/west mainland, a fifth one on the farming island and 4 luxury palaces in a block somewhere in between the 4 GI blocks. I'm spreading health, not letting it go over average, right from the start. Pretty soon (when oil exports are running) I'll have to decide whether I'm going to wait a while with building housing for farms or not.

While my design isn't complete, the major decisions have been made. Everyone will have theater and academy coverage. There will be 5 housing blocks: 3 on the large island (all supplied wheat and fish) and 2 on the large western land mass (1 supplied wheat and fish, 1 supplied wheat and vegetables). The luxury palaces will be part of both west blocks.

Final city exports will average 4.8 pottery/year, 4.8 furniture/year, 4.8 oil/year, and 9.6 weapons/year. (Much more pottery, furniture, and oil will be sold during development.) Rather than having more exports or more patricians (as suggested in reply #7), I decided to try to make the worker shortage small while following the rules in the opening post. This won't be as challenging as trying to run with a larger worker shortage, but should still be fun.

I expect to grow the city slowly, with the only concern (other than avoiding blunders) being earning enough to build the army. Since the city will have only the 6 temples required by houses, near the beginning of the mission I'll have to either start at least 4 of the housing blocks or quarry marble for an oracle.

OK Shenghi, you can post a new reply. How did you handle the 200-300 push?

I have a confession to make. I just found out that the game was somehow started in Hard difficulty -- I had 50 favor instead of 40. Of course those 10 points in favor would not be a reason to start over, as I am sure I had the game on Very Hard when I made the 200-300 push. But the 2000 Dn difference in starting money is quite a lot, and money had been scarce for a while -- my own mistake, i had so much that i was throwing it around!

So, I'm going to restart. One thing I'm surely going to do different is trade. I'll start with a sea trade route instead of the land route. The land route just didn't make enough money.

Brugle,
I did the 200-300 push by building 39 1x1 small tents. After the population was stable at 195 I gave everyone fresh water and added 46 more vacant lots. This is more than enough to get through the push, but for me it also supplied the workers to max out pottery exports.

Quoted from Shenghi:

In the supplied CCK maps (modified or not), Favor is automatically set to 50 at the start of each month. (That is the reason that I said "To eliminate the regular drop in Favor, I decided to use a standard CCK map" in the opening post.) So maybe you started at Very Hard after all!

Quoted from Brugle:

Ah, learned something new once again! I thought the favor simply would not drop. Thus I assumed I had started in Hard. Unfortunately I deleted the saves from that try and started over.

In the new attempt I found out after 4 years that Mars is not such a good protector. From the 10 locals that invaded he only killed 8, while I had expected he would be able to kill such a small invasion entirely. Thus, I have to restart again. This time I'll also try to have less housing in the beginning and focus more on house evolving (perhaps even before the '200-300 push') and less on trade, as I had huge amounts of money during this try.

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 05-14-2006 @ 05:31 PM).]

Quoted from Shenghi:

If your city is designed so that invaders from anywhere would have to travel a long distance to reach it, and if you had a fair amount of money at the time of the invasion, then you gave up too soon. When the invasion was announced, you could have built a barracks and a fort, and then (if there was enough money) built a military academy when Mars left a few locals alive. I'd think you'd have at least 3 soldiers ready by the time the remaining attackers got to your city.

I hate to restart, except in a contest. My 2 restarts while building Valentia without trade were highly unusual--1 was because it was my first C3 city at Very Hard difficulty, and 1 was because I forgot about the gladiator revolt. I'd give up my "limited deletions" rule to avoid restarting!

In every case I have noticed, Mars does in fact kill 10 attackers in VH. I find your comment very odd ... is Mars really random, or was something else happening? Can anyone explain this, because I would have said "your city was bugged" if I had read this before.

By the way .... 6 prefects hastily added would/could also kill 2 attackers (I think it is 3:1 iirc).

Brugle,

I think (I'm actually quite sure) I could have beaten those 2 invaders, however: I also felt I already had too many houses and evolving them would cause too much immigrants to arrive.
I agree with you on not liking to restart often, but as I said earlier, I am building this city pretty much on the fly and that adds a bit more trial and error.

Naghite,

I have to admit I was fairly surprised. Although I tend to play without future knowledge, my experience told me that usualy a first attack gets beaten by Mars' spirit. Adding to that the knowledge that the first invasion only counts 10 invaders I was quite sure Mars' spirit would take care of them.
I don't know if there is randomness involved in how strong the spirit is or if the type of invasion and/or the 'nationality' (how's that called in these forums?) of the invaders has any influence. That would be a nice subject for a test.

My design (which, just for fun, doesn't use any aqueducts) is complete. Tentatively, there will be 48 schools and 17 academies, which allows for 10% more children and youths than Trurl reported (in reply #3) after the population stabilizes with average health. There is room for several more schools and academies on roads with labor access, fire protection, and damage protection.

To minimize jobs, there are only 13 prefectures and 12 engineer posts. [Now 14 prefectures and 13 engineer posts--see reply #41.] Fire protection is a little skimpy--a few thousand years of operation should show whether it's adequate.

I focused entirely on designing the final city, so getting started will be a little clumsy. For example, to export the 4 expensive goods, houses in at least 4 of the 5 blocks are required and several granaries (used as roads) must be built. I may start by producing weapons and furniture, but first I'll calculate what can be afforded.

[Edited to add another prefecture and engineer post.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-14-2006 @ 01:42 PM).]