Jimhotep:

Very nice observations especially those concerning armor value. I have often wondered how that table was used and it's starting to clear up.

Could you provide an old military person with a hand with the following:

1) Hippos have an armor value of 80% (16/20). Does this mean for a hippo with hits points of 6 it would take 6 arrows to kill it in normal mode. (Archer missle attack = 5 - 80%) which implies effectiveness of archer missle is 1 versus armor value of 80%).

2) Not clear on how you got 60 points of damage for a javelin. In the table it seems to be 20 on normal.

3) When you stated that the morale dropped one point evey time a soldier was killed I am assumming you mean one level of morale (ex from "Above Average" to "Average")

4) Were you able to observe the morale levels on sister companies that were not in battle. (Ex. Did they also drop a level in morale even though the lost soldier was not from their company)

The third point is very interesting because there are 16 levels of positive morale before one gets to "Panic". Since there are 16 troops per company this would indicate that a full company with "Perfect" morale as it lost it's troops in battle would spiral down a level of morale for each troop it lost.

This is not hard to validate, is this what you observed as the troops were done in by the Javelins or Hippos?

You bring up an interesting point.

What does "Academy Trained" mean? And what does "Skill" level translate to as a company becomes more professional due to real combat. One of my observations was that with even negative morale the "Skill" level remained constant.

Does it mean they have an increased armor value? Or maybe increased hit points. It sounds like maybe their armor value increases which based on your observations would indirectly lessen their loss of morale since it would be more difficult to kill a single trooper.

Nice observations Jimhotep

Regards,
Vriesea

[This message has been edited by Vriesea (edited 05-10-2000).]

I'm confused here...

I think if the morale is low, they sustain damge quicker.
Da Pharaoher
From the Field of Reeds

Vriesea,

1. I think that the Armor Value for hippos against missiles is 19 out of 20. In hand to hand combat they should be able to kill six police officers, but be killed by the seventh. (For some reason, I haven't observed them to die when they run out of life- they need a little extra help to be pushed over the edge.) They are not susceptible to arrows at all.

2. The towers in Egypt correspond to the Ballista of CaesarIII. In the figure model text file they are listed under the name of their Roman counterpart.

3. That's right. I meant that they dropped one level of morale with each casualty.

4. Sister companies managed all right, when other companies lost troops, but when a company panicked they became demoralized too. (Just as you observed in your thread.)

I suspect that skill determines what the maximum morale is. At green, you can't get above "encouraged," but after going to the academy you can now achieve "quite daring." I rather doubt there is any other effect to skill.

--Jimhotep

Interesting...
Sort of suggests experience increase is more battle hardening than improved skills.

Strange, this seems a change from C3, where if memory serves me well, academy trained troops are also harder to kill (and are more effective battle wise)...or is that just my imagination?

Sound slike a waste if the only effect of having academy trained soldiers is that they panick a little less easy.

------------------
Homage to thee, Osiris, Lord of Eternity, King of the Gods, whose names are manifold, whose forms are holy, thou being of hidden form in the temples, whose Ka is holy."
-- Book of the Dead (1240 BC)

The type of company also determines this. Did you notice that archers never get Perfect morale? I don't know if their skill will affect it, as the highest skill level I got with archers is Veteran. Notice that Chariots will get Perfect morale at Veteran(or is it Elite).
Da Pharaoher
From the Field of Reeds

Jimhotep:

Thanks for the reply. About the Hippo...

If it has an armor value for combat of 16 this would indicate an 80% (16/20) shield against combat, thus against a policeman with an attach value of 5 it would throw up a shield of 4 (5 * 80%)allowing only 1 attack value per police. For a Hippo with hit points of 6. This would translate into killing 6 policeman and being defeated by the 7th policman which is what you wish you observed.

For arrows, if the Hippo has an attack value of 19 this indicates a 95% (19/20) shield against arrows. Thus the shield against an arrow is 4.75 (5 * 95%) allowing only a .25 attack value for arrows. For a Hippo with hit points of 6. This would translate into being able to be hit by 24 arrows and finally being defeated (killed) on the 25th arrow.

You were not able to observe the above.

Wondering out loud if Pharaoh combat is like Civilization combat.

In CIV, I think the effectivenes of attack points are random but weighted. Thus when two units battle both units may or may not damage each other.

If Pharaoh uses similar logic then when a Hippo and a policemen meet the dice are rolled to see who get the attack value, the policman or the Hippo. This goes on until one is completely exhausted of hit points and defeated.

In the roll of the dice, the hippo being supperior to the policeman should be weighted more and should always defeat the policeman initially but it may also be suffering a different number of hit points lost during each encounter (not always 1 and sometimes more than 1).

This can be somewhat observed in CIV by seeing how long the combat lasts between the units. In the case of the hippo versus the policeman the policeman may occasionally win the attack points thus the combat should last longer.

Wondering if the length of combat was different with each encounter between the Hippo and Policeman?

Da Pharaoher - Good observations about skill level and academys. I need to go back and observe the relationships between morale, academy trained, and skill levels.

And maybe the relationship of Hippos and Policeman

Regards,
Vriesea

Vriesea,

I don't think fractional damage can accumulate. When the armor value vs missiles was 19/20, I had six full companies of archers firing at the hippos for over three months with no effect. I had even adjusted the hit points of the hippos down to 1. Changing the armor to 17/20 didn't change anything- but the hippos died instantly under the barrage of arrows at 16/20.

I don't think the hippos killed quite that number of policemen. When some 3 hit point hippos were running amok in the city (courtesy of "hippo stomp") I'm pretty sure it was the fourth hit which killed them (I was counting the "thwacks" of the policeman's bludgeon). I didn't notice how many police men died, but I think it took two bites per hippo to kill them. Using 6 hit point hippos, it should take 4 policemen to kill one hippo; but I don't think the time would ever vary.

I'd be interested to find if your observations are consistent with a CIV style weighted model of combat.

--Jimhotep

Jayhawk,
I'm not sure how it was in Caesar... it looked like the academy trained units are harder to kill and more effective in attack, but it could be a function of morale - because academy trained units can achieve higher morale levels. I suspect it could be the same in Pharaoh... the better the morale, the greater chance to hit/evade attack, or something like that. It's only an idea, no proofs.

I think that only chariots can have Perfect morale, Infantry can't go over Very Bold - I had Masters (4 stars) in one mission, and I just looked at the saves... remained at Very Bold after several months in fort. Archers will probably have even lower limit - and all green units have kind of penalty to the morale.

Cherub Baltic

I have been very successful in dealing with hippos using towers while playing on hard difficulty. A couple or three towers can deal with a few hippo breading points. Plus the towers can have a good reach in dealing with hippos also.

Frankly they are my preferred method of choice in dispatching hippos in a problem area (like keeping my hunters or reed gathers safe). I was just watching a city I was playing and a hippo was "born". Immediately my three towers sent their spears and instantly the hippo died. What a site! If I wasn't busy doing other things in the city, I would just love to pull up a lawn chair and watch my towers deal with these beasties.

Hi all,
(if any one their that is)
I also incountered the hippos, does anyone know if they can be killed by boats??

Tanks

Me qwerty,

I've never seen a warship attack a hippo.

In some missions, it is probably easiest to design the city so that hippos don't do much damage. For example, in my Meidum, hippos eat some reed gatherers and wood cutters (and, rarely, fire marshals or architests), but that causes (at worst) only a tiny reduction in the trade income.

When they're available, towers are quite effective against hippos. For example, my On has 2 or 3 towers near each of the hippo breeding grounds, and usually kill hippos soon after they are born.

If towers aren't available and hippos need to be controlled, a bunch of police constables on roads near the hippos might be effective.

Maybe we should discuss the ethics of this, hadn't Jimhotep mentioned that this was all to serve science. I would be interested how you found this thread QWERTY, the title (and the persuing discussion) has little to do with hippo's.

i know the thread hasnt any thing to do with hippos however this is about the strength of the attack boats.

"Quote brugle": "havent seen attack boats attack hippos" this is true however it is possible to let the attack boats attack hippos (did so in Meidum). However didnt see any hippo do from it..

Yes they do, and no they don't.

In the end hippo's should die when you order a warship to attack them, but I haven't ever been able to manage either. Usually I just don't build near hippo spawning points.