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Pharaoh: Game Help
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Topic Subject: You are universally loathed...
posted 05-23-00 21:33 ET (US)   
I've been experimenting with cities that run a long time without intervention.

A problem I've encountered (I mentioned this in the "How does one make babies" thread) is that once immigration has filled up all the houses, there is no new blood. For some reason a cycle of evolution and/or devolution may be enough to allow babies to be made, but this stops after 30 or 40 years or so, and all people do is get old. After they exceed the age of 60 they stop working, and when the labor rate is low enough the city starts to fall apart (this happened with my city at th 37 year mark, with a labor participation rate of 11%).

Another problem is that after Egyptians reach the age of 100 they are no longer counted by the census. They continue to eat food, devolution won't kick them out (you have to demolish all housing), they don't count towards entertainment coverage... they are non workers, so after a while they seriously start to impede the smooth functioning of a city.

I've had success in making houses go through cycles of evolution and devolution. 30 squares of housing at rough cottage has a population of 390; a bandstand (without entertainers) gives a city wide bonus of 10 entertainment points when the population is under 390. Thus the rough cottages all evolve to ordinary cottages, which attract immigrants, which raises the population above 400, so the cottages devolve again, expelling a bunch of residents and starting the cycle afresh.

Egyptians under the age of sixty seem to be most susceptible to being kicked out when houses devolve, but it seems that a rapid cycling of evolution will eventually purge the city of all oldsters, and helps prevent centenarian immortals from filling up the place.

Yet a few managed to sneak through; after 20 years or so I checked on the city and saw 30 squares of ordinary cottage, no room for new immigrants, and a total population of 390; not the 450 that 30 full squares of ordinary cottage would indicate. The cycle of evolution and devolution had stopped, and there were no new births.

I tried a different tack. A city with less than 300 population has a sentiment of indifferent (pleased if less than 200). I provided entertainers for the venues, set taxes and wages to 15 and 38, and built enough industries so that there would be high unemployment (20-25%) when the houses were all full. I set it going. The houses evolved to pre-courthouse, and then the people would get annoyed at me and then angry. They would start to leave, and when the city population dropped below 300 they become indifferent. Immigration started up again, and the cycle began again.

This seemed to work extremely well in clearing out oldsters. Even toddlers and young people were in short supply. In fact, I once achieved a labor participation rate of just above 50%! No-one was over 60 for the 17 years that I ran the city.

But I got bored, and thought I would try to make the houses all 2x2 (so they would consume less resources and be more efficient). So I added a courthouse and a school. They all evolved to 2x2 common residences; 7 of them. I wandered off.

When I got back after several years, I noticed they hadn't devolved/evolved in a while. The city sentiment said something I had never seen before: "You are universally loathed because wages are too low."

I thought, "Well, why don't you leave the city then?" and I dropped wages to 0 and bumped taxes to 25%. (By the way, you can do this until the city population is over 300 with no effect at all on sentiment) Well, sentiment didn't change (I guess universal loathing is the worse you can get to) but nobody left the city either. The population stayed at 505. Now there were 7 common residences, with a population of 80 each, and I checked each of them. 6 were full, and the seventh had 72 residents. For a total of 552. So some centenarians had snuck in somehow, I don't know how.

But they still wouldn't leave.

They stayed, and they aged, and after a while city wide unemployment started to be a problem. I wandered off again, and when I came back fires had broken out and buildings had collapsed and everyone was dead and/or gone.

I reloaded from when I had dropped the wages and bumped the taxes (has anyone ever achieved this level of tyranny?) and eliminated scribal school and courthouse. 6 months later the houses devolved, people were angry at me and left, all as expected. The houses didn't devolve to 2x2's; lots of them were one by ones.

It is a very curious phenomenon, wouldn't you say? Perhaps some of you aspiring tyrants can experiment with similar cities, and see if a small number of residences can be cruelly mistreated without their residents leaving.

--Jimhotep

Replies:
posted 05-24-00 00:29 ET (US)     1 / 12  
why didn't you go for 100% taxation? or is 25 as high as you can go?

mike

posted 05-24-00 04:31 ET (US)     2 / 12  
Yes, 25% taxes is the limit. Funny why the taxes collected can be higher than the wage cost...
Da Pharaoher
From the Field of Reeds
posted 05-24-00 06:22 ET (US)     3 / 12  
Aging problem was even in C3 , for those who know and remember .
My teory in caesar was if you provide education at level 100 you will have more childern in your city . Higher birthrate . I governed a city in Tarcus for abut 75 years .
And I can tell you education didn`t help . Every single year I had to find some place for 1 or 2 more houses .

The same thing in Pharaoh . I thought Impresion would fix this . What is the meaning with aging ? At least to resanable levels . Show me a person who builded a city with balased birth and age rate . I don`t think such person is born yet .
So every time the same problem . You have to desperatly find place for more houses every end off a year . Or you just delete a hole cityblock and build again . Very smart...
Yes , maybe impression did this beacues they wanted a city to grow . Like normal cities do . But a map with resorses for 6000 ppl can`t support 10000 .
So I sudgest a colective letter to impression so they make a patch that fix this stupid aging and stop it on a normal level . Letīs say 30% off city pop is workforse . I think that is reasonable .

posted 05-24-00 07:35 ET (US)     4 / 12  
Dantes, I don't agree with you at all. I don't know how bad it was in Egypt but I can tell you that ageing population is already a big problem in most industrial countries (surely it is in Europe) and it will get even more crucial next century. West Germany population has been declining for years and some suggest that East Europeans contries could lose as much as 60 millions of their population within the next 40 years if nothing change (mind you, in the latter case that's not only because of ageing population...). In France where the fertility rate is not high enough to warrant the replacement of generations, there are already some big debates on how wide we should open the immigration floodgates just to prevent a work shortage in 20-30 years from now, although immigration is already a very sensitive subject. And that at a time where we only just manage to get that unemployement level down to 10%!

I actually think it's a very interesting feature of the game, only the fact that some could become immortal is a bit of a nonsense. Even if you could improve the birth rate (because of better health coverage, more food variety or better economical results) after a while you would just need some more houses for the youngers therefore keep on growing until you get to the optimal labor participation (11% might be unrealisticaly too low though): just like in the real world!

Unfortunately, some tyrants (count me among them) have some other ideas and have prefered kicking the olds out... Sad...

posted 05-24-00 07:53 ET (US)     5 / 12  

With the possible exception of Pepi II how many Egyptians do you know who made it past 100?

Though I doubt impressions will do much. I suspect they expect the campaign games to be played relatively quickly, so that this does not become an issue.

posted 05-24-00 08:38 ET (US)     6 / 12  
ToutEnCarton , if we talk about real world you are right . Aging problem is actual in many countries . The big porblem is also pension money. In idustreal countries ppl live longer then they lived 100 years ago . So you have to spend a lot off money to pay them pension . ( I can only be glad that there is nothing like that in Pharaoh ) .
However you sound to pessemistic . I think technology will answer all problems in future . Robots will do allrutin work(as they allready do now ) . So I think future looks very bright .
And about that workers shortege in european countries . It`s only better for young ppl who play Pharaoh now and training there brains att planiang cities .
posted 05-24-00 16:06 ET (US)     7 / 12  
I think you might be wrong there, Dantes. It's not just the cost of maintaining old people (most of these have been paying up for getting old). It's more a question of who's doing the work. Simple menial tasks might be done by machines, but a lot more simply can't be done by them.

Another interesting point is when you look at which parts of the population do grow...

A
ngel
J
ahakemhotep
Eyrie, Pharaoh Heaven, Caesar 3 Heaven, Zeus Heaven
Have you consulted the Pharaoh FAQs today?

------------------
Homage to thee, Osiris, Lord of Eternity, King of the Gods, whose names are manifold, whose forms are holy, thou being of hidden form in the temples, whose Ka is holy."
-- Book of the Dead (1240 BC)

posted 05-24-00 17:47 ET (US)     8 / 12  
People over 100? Good god!
It sounds like someone at impressions forgot an algorithm for people dieing of oldage. Wouldn't that be a nice easy fix? Ancient Egypt shouldn't be facing the geriatric health care crisis that modern industrial nations do. If everyone is aging there should constantly be people in all age brackets as the kids grow they have more kids, gramps retires and kicks off eventualy. Cycle keeps going on.
posted 05-25-00 07:26 ET (US)     9 / 12  
Maybe that was the Y2K (BC) bug: to save on papyrus consumption it was decided to "draw" dates with only two hieroglyphs. Came Y2K BC and it all went wrong: water lifts stopped, people were asked to pay for 100 years renting fees for books at the library and 100 years old people were sent some forms to apply for kinder garden...

That's why they are still physically there, the authorities expect them to be among the newly born babies and they are..not!

posted 05-26-00 18:06 ET (US)     10 / 12  
So what is the real solution to this problem? Anytime you seen anyone getting up into the 90's start devolving or you are stuck with immortals? Seems like a pretty messy way to handle the problem. Is just shutting down entertainment employees for a while good enough or do they have to be devolved back down to crappy huts? Do we have any hope at all of a fix anytime? I'll say it again; it seems to me all it would take to put it back on track would be death from old age. So you have a birthrate and a deathrate. Hmmmm....It comes to mind too, if people live forever then what the hell are the mortuarys doing? Just hoping a plague breaks out so they can get some business?

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StormCrow

Can anyone tell me why my signature works intermittenly? I cut it down to only 6 colors to keep within the 256 character limit and it still only works half the time

[This message has been edited by StormCrow (edited 05-26-2000).]

posted 05-26-00 18:26 ET (US)     11 / 12  
ROFL ToutenCarten

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Hey! Visit my homepage at http://johnleeshomepage.homestead.com/index.html or visit my forums at http://pub6.ezboard.com/bjohnleesforums Or, you can sign up for my egroup at http://egroups.com/group/johnsgames

posted 05-27-00 01:40 ET (US)     12 / 12  
I've been reading the little factoids about ancient egypt on the main page, and I read that the ancient egyptians made offerings of food to the dead. It may be that the centenarians are not actually alive; they take up space because a special room has been set aside for grandma, and food is being put out for her, but she is actually dead.

But what is most interesting to me is this business about overtaxing the residences and paying your laborers absolutely nothing. I'm out in Edmonton again, and don't have access to a computer with Pharaoh on it, and so I cannot satisfy my curiosity about this issue:

How many residences can absolutely loathe you without citizens emigrating? My little city had seven such residences. Is the limit ten? Or twelve? Or twenty? Or is there a limit at all?

A minor question arises about the reason stated for the loathing; my citizens loathed me because "there are too many slums." They have awfully high standards if a common residence is considered a slum!

Storm Crow:

Pharaoh seems to work the same as Caesar III (see the thread "Tingis in the year 2000" in the Caesar Heaven forum). An entertainment based oscillation strategy seems doomed to failure; a few citizens get beyond the age of sixty, and then make it to 100, and then start to cause problems. A more radical oscillation strategy seems to be required to prevent citizens from getting above 60. Once you have centenarians, you can't get rid of them. I once demolished six residences to discover I had a population of zero and one full residence; all the centenarians had stayed and everyone else had left. Only destroying all houses will expel all centenarians.

Regards,

Jimhotep

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