Religion plays several roles in Pharaoh

1. It enables housing evolution.
2. It may affect City Sentiment.
3. It plays a part in the Culture Rating.
4. A god's mood can result in blessings or curses.

Let's look at each of these roles.

Some levels of housing require access to the temples of one or more gods. This means that priests from a temple or temple complex must walk within two squares of the house. Once a house is past by a priest, it has access to that god's temple for the next six months. The levels of housing where an increase in access to temples is required are:

Number of gods	Level of housing
1	Meager Shanty
2	Fancy Residence
3	Elegant Manor (Stately Manor if difficulty is set to Easy)

I have always assumed that City Sentiment isaffected by the mood of the gods or how recently a festival washeld, but I haven't run any tests on it.

Some Culture Rating levels require a certainlevel of temple and/or shrine coverage. Each temple or shrine canaccomodate a certain number of people as shown in the followingtable:

Building type	Capacity
	Patron god	Local god
Shrine	150	300
Temple	375	750
Temple Complex	8000	8000

These numbers surprised me a little. I had always assumed that temples accomodated twice as many people as shrines, but my tests show they accomodate two and a half times as many. The fact that temple complexes for patron gods accomodate the same number as those for local gods means that, when you have the choice, building the temple complex for the patron rather than a local god can save you money.

The level of coverage for each god is determined by what I call the Coverage Index, which is the percentage of your population that can be accomodated by the Shines and Temples for that god. To calculate this, add up the capacity of the Shrines and Temples to that god (including the Temple Complex, if it exists) and divide by the population of the city. Of course, the Coverage Index can never be more that 100%. Note that it is only the Coverage Index that affects the Culture Rating. Other things, like festivals, that affect the gods' mood have no effect on the Culture Rating.

The Culture Rating uses the average Coverage Index for all the gods known in your city. For example, if your city of 6000 people has a Temple Complex to Osiris (the patron god), four temples and five shrines to Ra, one shrine to Bast, and the other gods are unknown, the Coverage Index for each god is:

• Osiris: 8000 / 6000 = 100% (can't be more than 100%)
• Ra: (4 * 750 + 5 * 300) / 6000 = 75%
• Bast: 300 / 6000 = 5%

In this example, the average Coverage Index is (100% + 75% + 5%) / 3 = 60%

The Culture Ratings that require an increase in the Coverage Index for religion are shown in the following table (but remember that there are other requirements apart from religion coverage):

Culture Rating	Required Coverage Index for Religion
5	1%
15	20%
30	40%
45	60%
65	80%
90	100%

Each god's mood is based on the Coverage Index, but is adjusted in a few ways.

The first adjustment is based on the number of months since the last festival to this god. This number is reported by the Overseer of Temples. The Overseer seems to you cheat you out of a month since as soon as you hold a festival, he says it has been one month since the last festival. Still, fair or not, we will use his number. Note that at the start of a mission, the game assumes a festival has just been held for all the gods, and the "months since last festival" number will be one for each of them. Also note the effect of lavish and grand festivals is the same as that of a common festival. To make the adjustment, subtract one percent from the Coverage Index for each month since the last festival, but don't subtract more than 40%, then add 12%. If the result at this point is less than 0%, change it to 0%, if it is more than 100%, change it to 100%.

For example, a local god in a city of 1000 has one shrine (a shrine to a local god acomodates 300 people). The Coverage Index is 300/1000 = 30%. If it has been 1 month since the last festival, we subtract 1% and then add 12% making 41%. If it has been 50 months since the last festival, we subtract 40% (you never subtract more than 40%) and add 12% making 2%.

I call the percentage we have at this point the "target mood" of the god. It represents how the god should feel about you, but a god's feelings take time to change. A god's mood can normally change by one percentage point each "workday" (a workday is a sixteenth of a month). So each workday, if the current mood is different from the target mood, the current mood will move one percentage point towards the target mood.

If you have a low population, the Coverage Index swings widely with each new shrine and each increase in population. To mask this, the game forces the mood to stay at Apathetic until the population reaches 400, then the mood can go up one level (to Amiable) or down one (to Displeased). For each increase of 50 in population, the game allows the mood to swing by one more level until with a population of 600, the restrictions are lifted and your gods mood can be anywhere from Benevolent to Enraged.

The god's mood also changes after a blessing, but I'll cover that later. The following table shows the descriptions of the various moods and the assoociated target mood percentage. The "Minimum population" column shows how the limit on mood for low populations works. The last two columns show the Coverage Index required for those target moods in two extreme cases: one month and 40 months after a festival to that god. Notice that you can't get a mood better than Congenial if it's been 40 months since the last festival (in fact 38 months is the limit).

Target mood		Minimum population	Required Coverage Index
Description	Percent		1 month since festival	40 months since festival
Benevolent	100%	600	89%	-
Approving	90%	550	79%	-
Sympathetic	80%	500	69%	-
Congenial	70%	450	59%	98%
Amiable	60%	400	49%	88%
Apathetic	50%	-	39%	78%
Displeased	40%	400	29%	68%
Resentful	30%	450	19%	58%
Angry	20%	500	9%	48%
Furious	10%	550	0%	38%
Enraged	0%	600	-	28%

Ankhs and lightening bolts start to accumulate next to the Overseer's description of the gods mood if the mood is Congenial or better (for ankhs) or Resentful or worse (for lightening bolts). There is no set rate or pattern to this accumulation. It seems that if the mood is in the right range, there is a chance on each new workday of an ankh or bolt being awarded. It seems reasonable to assume that the chance is greater when the mood is more extreme, but I haven't been able to confirm this. The average rate seems to be one ankh or bolt every one or two months.

The most ankhs or bolts you can accultulate is five. If you have ankhs and the mood drops below Congenial, you will keep them as long as the mood stays at least at Apathetic. If the mood drops below Apathethic, any ankhs you have are wiped out. Similarly, you keep any bolts you have accumulated until the mood rises above Apathetic.

Blessings and curses appear to depend on mood and accumulated ankhs and bolts. It appears that the current mood must be Sympathetic or better to get a blessing or Angry or worse to get a curse. It possible that they can occur when the mood is not in this range, but I have run for several years with five ankhs at Congenial without getting a blessing and with five bolts at Resentful without getting a curse. As long as you have the right mood and some ankhs or bolts, there seems to be a chance each month that you will get a blessing or a curse. (blessings and curses always happen at the start of a month). It seems reasonable that the chance of a blessing is greater if you have more ankhs or if the mood is better (and similarly for curses). I can't confirm that having a mood better than Sympathetic increases the chance of a blassing, but my tests do seem to show that having more ankhs increases the chance.

The awarding of blessings/curses and ankh/bolts seems to be "pseudo-random", which is my way of saying that it's not random (computers have a hard time producing random behaviour) but the rules are too obscure for me to work out. For a while my tests seemed to suggest that you needed at least three ankhs for a small blessing and more for a big blessing, but then a got a couple of small blessing with only one ankh. The most I can conclude from the tests is that the more ankhs you have, the greater the chance of a blessing, and the greater the chance that any blessing will be the big blessing rather than the small one.

A blessing wipes out all accumulated ankhs and drops the god's current mood by 12% for a small blessing or 30% for a big blessing. Similarly, a curse wipes out accululated bolts and increases the current mood by 12% or 30%. The current mood will then start to move at 1% per workday back towards the target mood.

What about Lavish and Grand Festivals? Good question! They don't appear to increase mood any more or any faster than a Common Festival. They don't appear to have an effect on how quickly ankhs are accumulated. And festivals themselves don't appear to cause blessings, they just increase mood which can result in blessings. Perhaps there are some circumstances didn't occur in my tests in which the bigger festivals have a greater effect. Maybe festivals have an effect on City Sentiment, and perhaps the bigger festivals have a greater effect. For myself, I plan to stick with Common Festivals.

Does all of this suggest a good strategy? Well, I don't think there is a magic winning strategy.

One way to increase the chances of a big blessing would be to hold the mood at Congenial until you have five ankhs, then increase the mood to at least Sympathetic and wait for a blessing. Of course, holding the mood at a particular level is easier said than done since you are working on a moving target with the months since the last festival changing, population probably changing and the lag between current mood and target mood to contend with.

A different approach is to keep the Coverage Index for each known god at about 60%. Once the effect of the start-of-mission festival goes away, the gods' mood will drop to Resentful and you will soon get five lightening bolts, but you will not be cursed. If you don't like your people to complain all the time, increase the Coverage Index to 80% and let the mood settle at Apathetic. This strategy saves the money you might have spent on additional Shrines and Temples. You won't be blessed and you won't be cursed, so if you like the game to be less unpredictable, this might suit you. Note that you still need a Coverage Index of 80% to get a Culture Rating of 65 and a Coverage Index of 100% to get a Culture Rating of 90.

Happy city building!

Nero Would

Nero Would, let me the first to congratulate you for (again, and very much to our expectations) A GREAT JOB!
You sure live up to your reputation. WELL DONE!

May I state in both awe and respect,

"you have way to much time on your hands!!!"

Gypsie

Nero Would strikes again!

Very thorough research with equally interesting results. Some of the things are a surprise to me; I supposed that type of festival has some influence on the blessing - but it seems that if it has, it is rather marginal effect. One more point in favor of my strategy... I throw mainly Common festivals (only when I wanted to get a big blessing with less than 5 ankhs, I did Lavish festival... seems that it was unnecessary, but it worked very good )

Cherub Baltic

[This message has been edited by Baltic (edited 09-19-2002 @ 05:12 PM).]

I suspect under this name /Nero Would/ someone from Impressions who continuesly provides us some info left out from the manual . What's the next chapter about ? I'd like to read something about prosperity .

Tomek,

We had a pretty good discussion about Prosperity at the beginning of this month. Prosperity HELP Some really good observations, especially by Plebus and JWorth.

Thanks everybody.

Baltic: I too was surprised that I couldn't quantify a benefit from throwing larger festivals. There surely must be some benefit, and it might even be a greater probability of blessings (or big blessings rather than small ones), but it looks like it must be a statistical one that would need many more tests to prove.

Tomek: I'm flattered, but if I really worked for Impressions, I'd understand how random walkers worked (or at least be able to put the thumbscrews on whoever did). As for Prosperity, I suspect there are people here who know more about it than me.

Bumping up an old thread seems to be preferable than adding to a recent one discussing the same subject.

In a number of recent contest maps I have indeed found it is impossible to have a blessing from a god without a festival square later in the game, though you can have one, and ususally not more than one, early. That seems to agree with the above observations.

In another Cleo contest the randomness of curses was discussed. I have investigated in detail the blessings in C3, which are not random at all, but scripted, and the flooding quality in Pharaoh, which is pseudo-random.

In C3 a blessing comes when the mood of the god is high enough (exalted), but only in certain prescribed months. The prescription is pseudo-random and generated by the game at the reading of the editor file. The random seed, used by the computer to "roll the dice", is external to the game. Once the map is loaded, saving and loading the save file won't change the prescription. It seems the same goes for curses, I haven't investigated that as thourough. It doesn't seem Pharaoh works this way, unless there are very many prescripted dates for blessings. In C3 there is only one blessing/curse per month. That seems to be the same in Pharaoh.

The flooding quality in Pharaoh/Cleo is pseudo-random and the seed is internal. It appears the flooding quality depends on the buildings, roads, gardens etcetera present at the time of the flood. I call this the "state" of the map. If you save before the flood comes, and don't change the state of the map, the flood quality is reproducible. Loading the saved file and doing nothing gives the same result. If you make changes to the state before the flood comes, e.g. by adding or deleting a road tile, flood quality may change, again in a reproducible way. Making the same change gives the same quality.

My guess is that the randomness of the blessings/curses in Pharaoh/Cleo is of this second type, triggered by an internal pseudo-random number depending on the state of the map. Because the mood of the god can also, indirectly, depend on the state of the map, it is harder to test this than for the floodings, but it shouldn't be too difficult. I'll see whether I can find some time, and report the results. Other input is of course more than welcome.

joshofet

I have tested this. I used the technique you suggest by changing the state of the map. However, I could not produce consistent results. This may be somthing to do with timing. I suspect there may some sort of delay between the 'state of the map' and the actual blessing.

I know in Zeus, i could win the games by changing the map slightly at the end of May, just before the 'games will be held message'. (I actually thought this was controlled by the number of debens, but it could have been the state of the map.) Then a quick fast forward to see if I had the magic number. If not, load the game, modify the map and try again. When I had perfect athletic (or whatever) coverage, I found this method worked every time.

Blessings are not entirely functions of "the state of the map". Loading the same file multiple times, changing nothing, may produce (at the end of the month) blessings from different gods or no blessing. This is one reason that I dislike contest events where a good result depends on blessings--it can take many dozens of reloads to produce a desired blessing.

My own experience agrees with Brugle's. Repeated replaying of a prior month's save is a well-used technique for forcing a required blessing. No map changes are required, only patience. I once had a crack at the Baki speed record, which requires obtaining the increased trade blessing every year over many years. I found the exercise eventually so tiresome that I've never been tempted to repeat it!

[This message has been edited by Martinu (edited 09-15-2002 @ 03:59 PM).]

Greetings. I've played Pharaoh/Cleopatra again, and I found an instance where Nero Would's theology doesn't appear to be entirely correct. I have a save where Ptah is displeased with two bolts. At the beginning of next month, he might destroy a storage yard. That shouldn't happen unless he's angry.

I know that Ptah were angry not long before the save. The two bolts were accumulated at that time. According to Nero Would, resentful and displeased gods are harmless. I assume that many players have verified that a city with constantly resentful gods is safe from divine wrath. So, lest you all disagree, I conclude that gods doesn't have to be angry to curse your city. Rather, they have to have been angry recently.

But, I'm sure you all knew that.

Here's my theory; The 'Lightning bolt Accumulation' algorithm occurs before the 'God decides to Curse You' algorithm, but both occur at the beginning of a given month. I would say that Ptah gained three lightning bolts on every occasion, but only decided to curse you on some of those occasions (hence the quote, "At the beginning of next month, he might destroy a storage yard."). Rerun your saved game and see if there are always three lightning bolts present in the absence of a curse.

Hakeem928,
If I understand Secataur correctly, he has a saved game that shows Ptah as "displeased" with 2 lightning bolts and that may produce a curse from Ptah when it is run until the next month. (There is always some randomness with blessings and curses, as described in reply #10.) This contradicts Nero Would's observation in reply #1:

It appears that the current mood must be ... Angry or worse to get a curse. It possible that they can occur when the mood is not in this range, but I have run for several years with ... five bolts at Resentful without getting a curse.

The question is not the number of lightning bolts required--the question is whether a god needs to be Angry or worse to get a curse.

Secataur,
Please correct me if I misunderstood.

Hakeem928,
In the absence of a curse, the two bolts remain. No third bolt is added. I wrote "might" because of the inherent randomness in blessings and curses.

Brugle,
you understand me correctly.

5 years too late, I can confirm Secataur's reply #12. The formation of ankhs depends on difficulty. At Hard or Very Hard difficulty, ankhs can form and curses follow when a god's mood is Resentful. At Normal difficulty, no ankhs appear to form when a god's mood is Resentful, but ankhs formed in the past at an Angry god's mood will cause curses even if the present god's mood is Resentful.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 08-25-2012 @ 00:16 AM).]

I'll post here my gaming experience. Hope it can help someone.

I believe the best way to deal with the hundreds issues in Pharaoh (a very complex game) is to simplify your own gameplay. The fewer things you have to manage, the easier the gameplay becomes. For sure, since the game is based in many micromanagements, you will always have many things to deal with, but the Gods are, in my opinion, easy to avoid.

An easy way to deal with Gods is work in a way they will not be displeased, neither pleased. The indifference helps a lot. Although you will not receive any blessings, they will not curse you too. With this in mind, you know you cannot count with their blessings, so, you must play in a way you do not need them. It helps to increase your responsability and atention over your citizens. Also you will not need to care about the mood of the Gods.

In my personal gameplay I do the follow:

Indifference of the Gods

a) For me, it is good to none of them mess around in my management. It is better to me that they be far away while I take care of my city. The only exception may be in military maps, where the help of Seth is very welcome.

b) My gameplay aims to have religion access only enough to reach their indifference. Why is it good?
___I) Because if I have a shortage in employment, I do not need to care about staff precious workers in Temples. The less temples I have, the less workers I spend.
___II) Also it grants the minimum required to satisfy the Gods, which is the main aim.

c) With their mood constantly indifferent, I never (NEVER) celebrate Festivals. After a few missions I noted that in my gameplay they are almost useless. And spent resources progressively. I do not know the proportion, just know the costs increase.

EDIT: As user "Brugle" mention in other topic:
I didn't see the answer in the forum, but it was easy to figure out. The monetary cost of a grand festival is about (200+population)/5, the cost of a lavish festival is about half of that, and the cost of a common festival is about a quarter of that. The beer cost of a grand festival is about the same as the monetary cost, rounded to the nearest 100, with a minimum of 100.

How to

I use the industrial block to build up shrines. This way, the architects who serve that block will take care of the shrines. It is more useful in small maps. If you can put them near the houses it is better, because they are attractive and help the housing evolution.

I may also build a "Shrine park", a place in the map just for build up shrines. It is not very useful to the rest of the city, and quite ugly. (Ugly as hell) But it works.


Legend

I build up the minimum number of temples necessary. At first, the God selected will be pleased, but as the time passes by, He/She will be indifferent.

===

So, this is how I deal with them. Hope it helps someone.
Regards.


__________________________________________________________
^{I'm new here. I wonder what this city has to offer to a person like me!}

[This message has been edited by GalateiaFK (edited 08-25-2012 @ 07:40 PM).]

GalateiaFK,

This shrine park idea isn't that bad: if only the house in that park is made to evolve (I typically feel happy enough if they eat food), it's quite OK for me. They are at least as logical as monuments to me.

Shrines are actually very useful. I used to earlier get irritated that they need firehouses and architects, but I didn't know they had almost half the effect of a temple in pleasing the deity! You get that for one-ninth the real estate and no employees -- and you can keep them "behind" the firehouse or architect's post or dentist, nicely aligning with the common 2x2 housing.

I earlier used to place big cluster of houses together and desirability problems used to make me pull my hair. Having looked at some saved games here, I began leaving at least one space between 2x2s (mostly). We can fill that up with gardens, statues -- or shrines!

Consequently, I earlier used to have shrines in the industrial area too, and that isn't bad either. It seems very appropriate to have a couple of shrines to Seth near your recruiter or to Ptah in general industrial area or Osiris near work camps! Again, placing them behind the 1x1 architect's post or firehouse makes sure that the extra tile covered by their workers doesn't go waste.

I'd like a no-curse (no-blessing) life, but even with all the help of shrines it's hard. Especially in the beginning, do we really have the money to build all those shrines?!

These days, I build more quickly than I used to, and barely just stay afloat in the "export for funds" stage. I find the rescue gift somewhat irritating, it'll be better if we could responsibly choose to go in debt instead (especially if it's that one block of clay imported just a second before a bundle of papyrus is exported).

[This message has been edited by srikant1987 (edited 08-25-2012 @ 04:45 PM).]

I have to admit the only time I've used shrines was when I was testing my "the capital" map, and needed to boost the gods aproval of me (they already loved me) so I could finish the map.

the other way to not worry about religion is just to have an over use of religion, like in my housing blocks there are usually 6 temples (or 3/1000 people) and I throw in random festivals. If you are trying to be the most efficient my way doesn't really work, but I've never really gone for max efficiency.

The reason temples are better, is 'cause they provide walkers and can provide religious covering for the whole block, rather then... Um... I don't even know how far the shrine covers, 'cause I quickly gave 'em up as useless (no offense to anyone just my opinion)

This thread is about calculating religious influence, on the Culture Rating, gods' moods, and getting blessings and curses. However, the last 3 posts were not on that topic. There's no problem with a player discussing an "Ugly as hell" technique (and other players' reacting to that technique), but it doesn't belong in this thread.

@srikant1987: You build up things exactly as me!!! ^_^ <3

Quoted from srikant1987:

This shrine park idea isn't that bad: if only the house in that park is made to evolve (I typically feel happy enough if they eat food), it's quite OK for me. They are at least as logical as monuments to me.

I have never thought to use them following the "monument's logic". Now you mention, it makes sense... And with the benefit of getting desirability around, as normal momuments do not give it to the city!

Quoted from srikant1987:

Especially in the beginning, do we really have the money to build all those shrines?!

No, in the beginning I build up 1 shrine to each god per each housing block. It is enough to make things stable.

Quoted from maydayp:

If you are trying to be the most efficient my way doesn't really work, but I've never really gone for max efficiency.

C'mon, it is a game! The only thing which matters is to have fun! If you do not care about eficiency, you can even forget about housing blocks and build a city aiming for beauty (as me!)!

Quoted from maydayp:

The reason temples are better, is 'cause they provide walkers and can provide religious covering for the whole block, rather then... Um... I don't even know how far the shrine covers, 'cause I quickly gave 'em up as useless (no offense to anyone just my opinion)

LOL. They do not cover. The map just ask for the number of shrines, not their location. This is why we can build "parks". To evolve houses, you really need temples.


@Brugle:
U mad?


Since this forum is open to public, you cannot control what people write. If you really want a place just for information, it would be better to have a Wiki. If you want, I can help you to build one.

Or simply move not relevant replies to other place and close the precious thread.

Quoted from GalateiaFK:

Since this forum is open to public,

This forum is open to people who agreed to follow the Forum Code of Conduct. You agreed to that but have violated it.

I am no longer on the HG staff, and your conduct hasn't been particularly bad, but your continual violation could lead to a ban. Don't discuss your "gaming experience" in a thread dedicated to something else.

So, I'm on normal, and just to provide a little more information on the festivals ('cause there's such a long time between 1 month and 40 months)
this is where my gods are, on a freshly loaded save
Ra (local deity)- 22 months Sympathetic, with 3 people
Ptah (local deity)- 22 months Sympathetic, with 5 people
Bast (local Deity)- 35 months Congenial, with 5 people
my population is 9092, I have 11 temples for Ra and Ptah each, and 10 for bast (who also has a shrine)
and at 35 months for ra and ptah it was down to amiable (bast had just had a festival, so that was back at the top). now at 48 it's apathetic....But then again I'm being lazing and only throwing festivals for bast. population is now 9429. 11 temples each (one shrine for bast)

[This message has been edited by maydayp (edited 08-25-2012 @ 08:54 PM).]

@ maydayp
You could builp up more shrines and be more lazy! I saw the more shrines you build the more the Gods are pleased. Temples grants coverage for people, but you do not need to spend workforce in religion. It is bad if you have a shortage: if the temples have no priests, the Gods' mood start to decay until you get curses.

Shrines do not need workers. I suggest you spend your resources to build up more shrines... This way, you do not waste more in the future with wages.
But remember to have religion coverage for the max population you can. It impacts in your ratings.



@ Brugle
Sooo... You really got angry in an almost dead forum about a +10 years old pc game for children... Hum... Ok...

My intention here since beginning is to help, be helped, have fun and help others to have fun too. I am succeeding. If you really got resentful just for a player's comment, it looks like you are taking this too serious. I suggest you take easy and enjoy the life a little more...

And about be banned, well, the impact of your threat in my life in meaningless.

Be in peace.

[This message has been edited by GalateiaFK (edited 08-25-2012 @ 11:26 PM).]

Just got to say, please keep it civil. Brugle, I know this discussion doesn't contribute to the topic but this forum is fairly inactive. The substantive information is not being erased and some discussion is better then none. A new topic would be best but leeway has to be given. And I know GalateiaFK's response wasn't the best, I'm not here to take anyone's side.

GalateiaFK - The forum may be open but please tone it back a bit. If someone calls you out on something, just take it on the chin and leave it at that. It doesn't help anyone if you escalate things. It may be an old game but a lot of us still really like it.

I'm not looking to start a discussion, just stop one. If anyone wants to reply to me about something I've said, please send me an email and keep it out of the forums.

[This message has been edited by evil_live_vile (edited 08-26-2012 @ 08:20 AM).]

this forum is fairly inactive

One good post per month is better than any Facebook. I started playing Pharaoh in 98.

If anyone wants to reply to me about something I've said, please send me an email and keep it out of the forums

You have to understand here that members have shaped this forum for a dozen years. Veterans do not need lessons. They give lessons.

This very forum is notoriously the strictest of HG. What does that mean? That we have here our own standards of conduct. I first posted here in 2001.

If Brugle says: phrase your posts differently, please adapt to this forum, it means that we want it like that.

Otherwise come to OD, also Heavengames, if you want a challenge
http://www.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=t&fn=1