Hi Brugle,

I understand the part on how to keep the boat delivery people to deliver to the nearby SY with your set up, however you lost me with the 'they send out carts even if the yard is full at the getting SY' :

a : what are the cart pushers doing with the goods, once they are picked up at the dock SY?

b : how are the industries supplied - will the cartpushers leave their SY go pick up at dock SY and then deliver to industry? What happens if industries are fully supplied? (if true this would answer a: )

c: how (what) are you going to use to fill the yard and make sure it stays that way? - Now any quarry product would fill it up pretty quickly

ok, never mind, after rereading your post, a/b are answered just as I asked the question - neat trick - hope it works for the big city you're building

Finally, a use for all that straw!

C Franziskus,

"Getting" cart pushers that have returned will try to put the "got" goods in their storage yard. If there's no room there, they will deliver the goods to industries that need it or to other storage yards.

The "other" goods (that simply take up space) could be anything that won't be fetched or delivered. In Baki I plan to use figs, since a lot of figs will be produced and market buyers will fetch them only from granaries.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-12-2001 @ 01:35 PM).]

Brugle,

what are the chances they are taking it back to the 'dock-SY' if all others are supplied?

If there's no where else to put the "got" goods, storage yard cart pushers will always take them back (assuming that there's a road connection). That's a good sign, since it means that everything is fully supplied. (If it happens a lot, then there are more delivery storage yards than are needed.)

Or not enough industry for that barley

What an incredible discovery this is Brugle. I am astonished that so many great players have been playing this game for so long and we (you) are still discovering ways that we can all improve our game play. I’m not sure that everyone appreciates the significance of your discovery.

Since I prefer to design fully connected cities, this is the distribution key that I was looking (hoping) for. The theory is so logical, I can’t believe I didn’t think of it before. I especially like your idea of using a common food type for the “filler”. In case of a poor inundation or other food storage, you could temporally release the food in your storage yards. I am sure that I will be using this feature in every city that I design from this day forward.

Forum Members,

When we use a storage yard that is filled with “filler” goods and set to “get” goods to supply our industries, I propose that we simply refer to it as a “Brugle Storage Yard”. (Example: I placed a Brugle Storage Yard full of straw and set to accept clay next to my potters on the center island.)

Great!Now,I just have to balance it right because normally my clay pits fill up my potters and then send the excess clay to the storage yard.Now,I can cleanly cut my reaource gather sites by 2 thirds and still gain proper productivity.Good work Brugel!I'll be useing your Brugel Yards often..

Now for my Stepped city III...a super city with 25000-30000 people.Should be fun.

Oh oh... and I thought I know what to do with Storage yards . Such idea has never crossed my mind, it is an excellent discovery after almost 2 years during which so many experts were trying to push the effectivity over any limits. Way to go, Brugle... I'm really curious what discovery will come next!

I suspected that SY generates 2 cartpushers when it contains less than 1/2 of the amount to be get, and knew that it will do so even if set to get 1/4 (meaning that some 400 units will be brought for which there is no room) - but didn't draw the conclusion that looks so obvious now Brugle has pointed it out...

Thanks, Brugle! I think that BSY will appear quite often in my cities, and I'm sure that it will have very positive effect on production rate and stability; anyway, much better than BSE in real life .

Angel Baltic
Used abbreviations: BSY=Brugle Storage Yard; BSE=Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy

[This message has been edited by Baltic (edited 06-13-2001 @ 02:49 AM).]

Speaking of Mad Cow Disease, my sister named her cat Prion - figure it out if you dare!

Excellent observation, Brugle.
I seem to remenber from observing getting/delivering SY cartpushers that much of what they deliver comes directly from the source SY, because they always get 400 even when there is only room for 100 in their 'home SY'. (correct?)

I have always used 'Get 1/4', but if I understand you correctly, your method would be twice as efficient, because I can have 2 cartpushers doing the same as one did before?

Totally brilliant. How do you ever discover these things!!

I too will change from my old "get 1/4" habits to using Brugle SYs!

Good observation Brugle!

Can't wait to try it out. I got a feeling there are other "gold nuggets" out there waiting to be found.

Thanks for sharing it among the members.

Good gaming,
Vriesea

[This message has been edited by Vriesea (edited 06-15-2001 @ 02:15 PM).]

Well, this feature seems to be more complicated:
As you use a full (with other goods) SY, you force the getting CartPusher to deliver (no room to place his load in the SY), BUT also the delivering CP to get (no good available in the SY)! Important: Both CPs are running all the time.

I asume, normally (enough empty space in a SY to hold the good) one CartPusher is getting, while the other is delivering:
1. If the delivering trip is shorter than the getting trip, the SY runs empty and the delivering CP will insert a getting trip. All the time Both CPs are running too.
2. If the delivering trip is longer than the getting trip, the SY becomes full and the getting CP will insert a pause. Here is the gain proportional to the time difference.

So the question: Is the 'getting CP forced to deliver' more efficient than the 'std-delivering CP'?
The 'std-delivering CP' returns to the SY between every delivery. Does the 'getting CP forced to deliver' the same pattern, or does he go from one lib to the next directly? If so, the gain may be nearly fourfold. (I asume here the distances between the libs are small in correlation with the distance to the SY and libs demand 100 each time. Is the last correct?)

civilis,
I think the following is true, but am not certain. When a storage yard sends out a cart pusher to deliver, the storage yard will not generate another cart pusher. Only when a cart pusher is "getting" will the storage yard generate a second cart pusher (also "getting"). Naturally, if a "getting" cart pusher returns and there isn't room for the good in the storage yard, then the cart pusher tries to dump the goods somewhere, but it is still apparently in "getting" mode.

Brugle, could you please explain the problem more explicitly. I didnot quite understand what you meant (maybe it's just me).
Anyway I was just about report the success of your SY system. I was playing Itjtawy where granite can be imported. I accepted all the granite in two of my SYs devoted to a couple of connected housing blocks. Then I set the SY to get linen maximum and another one to get papyrus. The SYs seemed to work just perfectly. They would go to get the goods and then deliver it to all the mortuaries (4) and schools(4). It worked because I didnot bother to check that thing. (I did'nt bother because no house devolved.) I might add that the entire industry was disconnected from the rest of the housing blocks unlike your Baki. But even if this had not been the case, as I later checked, the "Brugle SY" or BSY (for short) works just fine (although I had to fine tune my bazaars a bit!).
A great discovery by a great player.
I will also take this opportunity to tell you that, your "Caesaromania" city was one of the most inspirational cities I had ever seen. Since then I knew what level I had to reach to think I am a good player(and I was a long way from it). Also by saying this I don't want to take away credit from anyone else, but it just so happened that after becoming Caesar the first city I looked at was Brugle's Caesaromania and I was really struck by its beauty and perfection.

[This message has been edited by warrior (edited 06-20-2001 @ 10:55 PM).]

warrior,
I don't understand what "problem" you want me to explain. In my last reply, I was simply disagreeing (somewhat) with civilis's interpretation of storage yard cart pusher behavior.

You are right, Brugle. There are only 2 CPs per getting SY if the SY contains less than the amount it should (and both CPs are in getting mode). When a CP is delivering no second is generated.
So the getting capacity of a BSY is doubled while the delivering capacity is quadrupled.
In the following I asume that there is always demand for the good and it is all the time available. If for example an empty SY is set to "Get 1/4 papyrus" 2 CPs head towards the source SY, because it holds less than half (0) of what it should (800). When the first CP returns, he is send to get again, because the SY still holds less than half (400) of what it should (800). When the second CP returns, the SY holds more than the half (800), so he isn't send out again. When the first (and now only) CP returns the second time, he finds the SY "full" (800) and delivers his 400 efficiently in one trip to schools & libs. After this initialisation all is repeating: The CP returns to the "full" SY (800), fetches and delivers 100. On his next return he finds 700 & decides to go and get (as getting has priority over delivering) 400. Returning he puts 100 in the SY (again "full") and delivers the remaining 300 efficiently. Ad infinitum.
So the normal getting SY has one CP carrying 400 on getting trips and 200 (average) on delivering trips. BSYs have all the time two CPs carrying 800 on getting and delivering trips! A side effect of this is more freedom in placement of the BSY.

I suspect, this feature works as implemented, but not as designed.

[This message has been edited by civilis (edited 06-21-2001 @ 03:26 PM).]

civilis,

If buildings are kept supplied, then a cart pusher with lots of a good may deliver only 100 to each building. (For raw materials this is always true, for schools/libraries/senet houses/mortuaries somewhat more than 100 may be delivered, but sometimes that will leave less than 100 to be delivered to another building.) If we assume that the cart pusher delivers 100 to each building, then (depending on the arrangement of buildings) a cart pusher delivering more than 100 of a good may pass by the storage yard when going from one building to another. In that case, delivering more than 100 saves very little time (only loading time). I'd expect delivery of more than 100 to save time on average, but I prefer to design closer to worst case than to average.

I don't know the algorithm used when multiple storage yard cart pushers are delivering the same good--as far as I can tell, it isn't simple. So it's possible that multiple cart pushers might interfere with each other, and be less than twice as productive as one.

In typical situations, I'd expect that the 2 cart pushers from a "getting" storage yard that was full of a "filler" to deliver roughly twice as much (maybe a little more, maybe a little less) as 1 cart pusher from a tradtional "getting" storage yard.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-21-2001 @ 08:42 PM).]

Observations of experimentation with a Brugle Storage Yard:

I built a normal accepting SY to accept river-imported reeds and a BSY set to get max reeds (not connected by road to the dock SY) to supply some papyrus makers.

As expected, when the BSY was 1/2 full of the "inert" good, it stopped spawning "getters" once it was 1/2 full of reeds. And as soon as the amount of reeds became 15, it again spawned 2 "getters".

After filling the BSY with 20 units of "inert" good, it constantly spawned "getters," even when it was totally full. Again, this was expected.

This is the curious part, and I'm not sure if it will prove to be useful:
I then placed a normal SY near the BSY, set to accept 1/4 reeds. The BSY cart pushers filled the BSY and after supplying any papyrus maker, dropped the extra in the normal SY, then took it back out (since they are BSY dudes), then put it back in, ad infinitum --- I expected this.
The interesting twist, though, is that as soon as the dock delivered more reeds to SY1, the BSY guys stopped playing "Brugle shuffle" with SY3 (even though it had 600 reeds in it) and went cross-country to get the reeds from SY1.

.........................

I haven't played any cities since discovering this site and first reading Brugle's post describing the BSY --- my next mission is HET, and I want to study more what you experts have done before I tackle it (also, RL keeps intruding). And I'll bet that the BSY will play a role in my Het.

The pre-BSY method I had evolved was to place two old-fashioned "getting 1/4" SY in close proximity. One would be getting 1/4 each of two goods and accepting two other goods. the second would be just the opposite (that is, accepting goods #1 and #2, but getting 1/4 each of goods #3 and #4). This generally worked pretty good, I never had housing devolution except when I had a city-wide supply shortage.

...........................

Another observation, I have seen (and even purposely "forced" it) a SY spawn a second cart pusher even when there is one making a delivery .... hmmm, since this was in my pre-BSY days, maybe the first guy was actually getting and I only though he has delivering.

i just used a brugle storage yard today for the first time...works like a champ keeping libraries and such active

I recently came up with a small refinement that appears more realistic and intuitive. (After all, without looking at its special orders, it's hard to tell whether a storage yard full of figs is delivering barley or papyrus.) It applies when a storage yard is delivering 2 goods. (I plan to use it in Bahariya Oasis, to deliver reeds to 6 papyrus makers and clay to 4 potters plus 4 brickworks.)

When a storage yard is getting and delivering 2 goods and there is always some of each in other (accepting) storage yards, no inert good is needed. Fill the delivery storage yard, half with one good and half with the other, then set it to "get 3/4" of each. In my limited tests, the storage yard sent out one cart to get each good.

As Ilion mentioned in reply #24, the 2 goods (like all "filler" goods) must not be taken by bazaar buyers. Goods that houses use can only be "filler" goods if the bazaar buyers will always take those goods from another (closer) storage yard.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 11-03-2001 @ 03:04 PM).]

This sounds workable. But there must always be some of both goods on other storehouses. If the city-wide store of one good became limited to what is being used as "filler" in the BSY, the cartpusher will begin making his next required deliveries from the goods in the BSY. Once he has removed a total of 4 for delivery, the other cartpusher will 'dump' his goods in the BSY.

But, a further complication of that is also related to timing ... since the cartpusher for the non-exhausted good will by definition be out 'getting' goods, the second cartpusher may not be as apt to 'deliver' goods.

On the third hand (yeah, I'm a Martian), perhaps the dificulty I'm thinking of is when I try to manually cause a cartpusher to 'deliver' goods (by setting it to 'empty') and the other guy is already out. In my recent Tut-in-the-Valley, I did indeed notice a SY making normal deliveries when the first cartpusher was out 'getting' goods. However, I could not make him 'empty' goods.

I can also see that normal events, and not merely a severe city-wide shortage of a good, could cause a failure of the '2-goods, non-inert' BSY.

For instance, if one good is Papyrus, and building a new Library just happens to randomly use 4 scrolls from that SY, if the cartpusher for the other good gets there first, he'll dump his goods there.

Likewise, if one good is Linen, and a bazaar buyer takes 4 rolls, if the other cartpusher gets there first, he'll dump his goods.

........
BUT, these 'failures' could perhaps be self-correcting, if both goods are ones that bazaar buyers buy.

But at the moment, the only normal good I can think of that is both bought by the bazaars and used by a service/industry is linen. Beer, to a small degree, if you have a Senet house. Pottery, if you're making Lamps (which is rare, indeed).

[This message has been edited by Ilion (edited 10-31-2001 @ 10:40 PM).]

Ilion,
I did say that there must always be some of each of the 2 goods in other (accepting) storage yards (which isn't hard to manage, with a little care). But I should have mentioned that bazaar buyers must not take the goods from that storage yard--reply #22 was edited appropriately. (Anyone using papyrus as a "filler" good who builds a library should have sense enough to check where it comes from and to fix any problems.)