Well, you could always be a little bit of a sneak and quickly change it from VH to VE when they come and then back to VH.

That's an idea.

Luckily I seem to have mastered it now kind of (with a stroke of a luck)
They always attack from the West now instead of the East where my main settlements are which now has 6 companies.

Indeed that was luck Scopsm, the invasions in Iken seem to be scheduled to occur at random invasion points. If you check the forum for "Iken" you will find several threads on the issue. IIRC the random invasion points are fixed in a mission once you have started it, that means if you replay from an earlier save, the invasion will always occur at the same point, so you can prepare for it. Only when you restart the whole mission randomly scheduled invasion may occur at a different invasion point than in an earlier run.

It is up to the mission designer to determine whether an invasion is scheduled to occur at a fixed or a random selection from a finite number of points. It is my experience that most invasions come at fixed points, but there are several that can come at more or less random points. If I want to avoid the latter, I just make a save of the game immediately after loading the starting position, and replay from that, instead of replaying the mission as a whole.

I'm trying Iken at VH now, without debt, but still haven't managed to survive even the first bedouin attack. It's by no means certain that this mission can be played at that difficulty level, some missions can only be played at very hard if you use additional tricks or features. Restarting until some of the larger initial invasion occur at harmless points is one such feature. Iken has been done by others at VH, you may check the forum for what features they used.

Go to the Downloads section and get my Iken at Very Hard.

Iken may reveal difficult, but not if you are ready to sacrifice part of your city. I tried to handle both the city and th mines and lost both battles. I restarted the game and decided to ignore the protection of the gold mines East. They were destroyed, then the attackers withdrew. I rebuilt the mines. End of the story.

I'm still working on this mission, but was able to survive all attacks so far, and didn't go into debt. I started my city on selling linen to Dakhla, and money is very tight. I had to sell some copper to keep in the black, and be able to raise enough forts. Once Kerma opened up, money problems were over. All invasions so far have been on the main land mass, and my archers have been able to defeat the attackers with hit and run. Pretty tricky though, even with five archer legions. The naval invasions were feeble, two warships sufficed, I have a third one now, and planning for the rest. One bedouin invasion came on the Southern island, but the next one on the mainland again. I barely survived, and in replay had to replace one archer legion by infantry, as hit and run doesn't work (with me). Still my troops were decimated, so I worry about rebuilding them before the next. I could try to put my archers on the island next to the invasion point, but somehow that seems like cheating. So far there have been no land attacks on the mine section, so I don't have transports available (yet).

It seems the randomness of the invasion points in this mission makes the results irreproducible, it doesn't make sense to compare my mission with eg Tryhards one, who just had to accept destruction of the mines. To avoid that randomness, I replay from an early save, instead of using the replay option, but different sets of invasion points result in different strategies for this mission. As not only the invasion point can be random, but also the invasion strength, it might be needed to specify also that when reporting a strategy for tackling this mission at VH.

When I played Iken (at hard) the first time I ever played this mission, I gave up after a few tries, and decided to build my initial city on the islands, immune for land-based attacks (and most of the naval ones too IIRC), and let the rest be destroyed during invasions. Felt like cheating at that time too. IMHO this is a badly designed mission, even if the designers intended the player to choose the strategy I picked. Well designed missions should allow for various strategies, this mission's optimal strategy is random.

Note added: I did try the trick with the archers on the island next to the invasion point. I sent three of my warships and one transport ship over during flood season. They were trapped when the flood recided, but that didn't seem to bother them. The bedouin were so amazed by the sight of the ships, the "camel of the river", that they just stood there in awe while being mowed down by the archers on the opposite bank. No fun at all.

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 04-26-2005 @ 12:25 PM).]

I decided to continue Iken from the more straight approach I used to the large Bedouin invasion, and discard the "cheated" way out by having archers mowing the invasion down across the river. It turned out all subsequent invasions came at the Southern island, which was empty apart from a ferry and and a few huts to attract the invaders. To remove them quickly I put four archer legions at the other side of the river. By the time of the first of these invasions, all my troops were back to full strength, but it turned out I didn't need them. Like Scopsm, I was lucky, but somehow it didn't feel that way.

I ran into serious trouble when a few of my ferry boats got stuck on the flood plain. I had a ferry from close to the entry point to the second island, where I could place a small housing block and have access to the flood plain and some coast for warships. Moreover this was the shortest route to the gold mine settlement, which was allowed to develop by having SY's getting pottery and beer from the main city block and production site at the mainland, next to the entrance. There also was the dock area. When I had no inundation for two successive years, that ferry became a real trap. I had put a military academy on the island, and the forts and the recruiter on the mainland, to make room for breweries. Soldiers were trained, but did not appear in the forts, as they were stuck in endless waiting lines at the ferry. Delete (/undo) of the ferry resulted in a loss of all the soldiers standing in line, so I just waited for the next flood, and when I noticed ferry boats always got stuck during growing season, decided to delete the ferry and use the longer road across the first island. So a warning to everybody playing Iken not to use a ferry route which makes boats cross the flood plain during flood season, not if it is a vital connection in your city design.

Anyhow, I did finish Iken at very hard without going into debt, so I didn't take the rescue gift. Also no blessings and no temple complex, so at no point was there any assistance from the gods. Nonetheless they must have had some compassion with my poor citizens, who else would be responsible for the fate that put the large bedouin invasions at a spot where they were quite harmless? Money was made in the beginning by selling linen, later also beer, and taxes. In the end I needed a few gifts to raise favour, it didn't increase fast enough by meeting the requests, normally I play without gifts. The naval invasions were quite simple, all land invasions on the mainland were handled with the hit and run tactics. Quite cumbersome, I had to replay some of them several times before I was satisfied with the result. My guess is that with better planning invaders can be attracted to a bottleneck with towers a bit away from the main settlement, but that is in hindsight, now I know where the invasions occur. IIRC there also is an invasion point near the entry point. An invasion there would have been desastrous to my main city block, including most of my industry, but because of the gold mine village I would have survived. As Tryhard observed, your city will survive even if one of the blocks is destroyed, so that appears to be a major strategic issue in this mission.

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 06-21-2005 @ 05:24 AM).]

Hi joshofet,

I'm a bit confused about the randomness of the invasion points.
On my first try I built a fort near the gold mines and was attacked there.
Since I was not content with the layout, I started a second try with the same SAV file.
This time I built all forts on the west bank and 4 transport ships, but I was not attacked near the gold mines.

If you are interested in my lucky version of Iken without debt and without blessings, you can find some saves on www.staedtebauen.de

[This message has been edited by Max (edited 05-31-2005 @ 09:11 AM).]

First of all, congratulations to joshofet for completing Iken at Very Hard with no debt or bailout loan. Not an easy task!

SPOILERS AHEAD Stop here if you don’t want to know about the invasion points.

The following information was obtained from Nero Would’s spoiler version of his Excel maps (available in Pharaoh Heaven’s download section). This information has NOT been game tested.

I will only discuss the “scripted” invasions, since the “triggered” and “Kingdom Rating” invasions should be avoidable.

The first invasion is scripted for September of the third year. It is a Bedouin (land) invasion with a troop strength of 12. The invasion occurs near the center of the southwest side of the map.

The second invasion is scripted for August of the 10th year. It is an “enemy” water invasion with two ships and a troop strength of 12. There appears to be three possible disembarks points. One is on the largest western landmass near the north corner of the map. The second is on the eastern landmass (with the gold mines) just north of the floodplain. The third is on the west side of the center island near the north end.

Future scripted invasions are all the same (except for troop strength). They are scheduled for October of year 13 (troop strength 64), April of year 16 (64), November of year 21 (64), August of year 24 (troop strength 96) and January of year 28 (96). There are two possible invasion points for each occurrence. One is near the eastern corner of the map (near the gold mines). The other is located on the small island on the southeast side of the map.

Thanks for the hint,

I studied the events in Nero Would's Excel sheet (really good work..).

Attention: SPOILERS AHEAD..

The critical event is number 19 - it's triggered from event number 16 (over 20 and 18),
if you don't meet the request (threat) for 20000 copper.
The invasion point is random - either near the gold mines or somewhere in the south of the western landmass.

Now the question: When is the invasion point determined?
Just a guess: After the previous event (number 18 - enemy water invasion) is completed (Jul 1796).

I doubt that Max. Random events in Pharaoh are usually set at the point where they are triggered. Flood quality is set at the moment the flood comes, and can be manipulated by making (small) map changes. Delay of an event triggered by complying with a request is set at the moment of compliance, and is fully random (ie cannot be manipulated, just use trial and error). Locusts will destroy only those farms present when the attack is announced, not random, but again fixed in advance of the actual event. My guess is the invasion point is set at the moment the invasion is announced, I don't know whether it can be manipulated.

joshofet, could you possibly point me in the direction of any thread(s) which describe the flood-manipulation effect you speak of? I would be very interested to learn more about it...

WinterPharaoh,

I remember reading about flood control somewhere, but couldn't find the thread. (Perhaps joshofet will be more successful.)

Sometime around the start of the flood, the prediction for the following flood is set, based on the "state of the map". (I don't know what aspects of the map determine the next flood prediction.) For example, say that the flood occurs in Aug, and you save the game in Jul 1000 BC. Every time you load that saved game and let it run until the 1000 BC flood without doing anything, the predicted flood for 999 BC will be the same (assuming that you don't get a blessing or curse from Osiris). However, if you load that saved game and immediately change something (such as build a few gem mines) before letting it run until the 1000 BC flood, then the predicted flood for 999 BC may be different. In a contest where flood quality is important (which I would consider poorly designed), this sort of manipulation may be required for a good result.

Some "random" events (like the next flood prediction) are determined by the "state of the map", while others (such as whether a blessing occurs) are not. Using the above example, say that in the saved game, Ra had a recent festival and has a couple of ankhs. If you load that saved game and let it run without changing anything until the flood, then the predicted flood for the following year will always be the same, but Ra's behavior when the month changes (not blessing you, giving an "increased trade" blessing, or giving an "improve your reputation" blessing) may be different each time.

I don't know where I reported the feature, but Brugle is correct. I use to do it with huts, they are cheap, and easily fitted in. Maybe it works with gardens or aquaducts too, I don't think it will work with free objects.

Anyhow, this is what I do.

1. Right before the flood make a save
2. Right after the flood make another save
3. Wait until you get the flood prediction for next year
4. If you like it, load save #2, otherwise load save #1, build a hut, overwrite save #1 and repeat procedure.

If you don't make changes to the map, you will find the quality fully reproducible. In practice I don't continue until I get the desired quality, but rather make different save files #2, and after say a maximum of five tries choose the best possible result. For the flood prediction you can wait for the message to appear, or look in the general overview window, I think the latter is a bit quicker.

I agree with Brugle that this kind of manipulation is only useful in contests. In general a designer will try to avoid making a map that crucially depends on it, as for most players this one tends to take out the fun. These idle replays are not very inspiring, however in this case they are not very long, so they can be accepted. The randomness in for instance a recurring event can span much longer periods, and is quite dull indeed.

Anyhow, this is not a discussion about contests, but about randomness. I hate it, but that is an entirely personal viewpoint. If you like to play a map without any future knowledge, as several players, such as Brugle, like, randomness is no issue at all. When playing career maps, I don't have so many problems with it. In the Iken map I think it has too large an influence on strategy, and it frustrates players who have become accustomed to invasions occuring at a predictable point after some time. If your city is wiped out several times by invasion at points where you didn't expect them, it becomes difficult to play without future knowledge, even if that future knowledge is that you can't tell. The point is in most other missions you can.

[This message has been edited by joshofet (edited 06-21-2005 @ 05:29 AM).]

joshofet,

It's true that randomness is not an issue while playing a mission for a player (such as me) who doesn't use "future knowledge". However, after the mission is complete, randomness is an issue, since I like to look at other players' cities to see how they handled the same problems that I faced. If the player did not face the same problems, then I'm frustrated. (It's clear that I'll be frustrated in this way after playing Iken. )

I'd guess that most players who enjoy replaying missions would consider randomness a good thing.

In my opinion, it would be best if randomness was either a) limited to less important things or b) repeated often enough so that most players have the same experiences (although at different times). For an example of a), an invasion could randomly occur at different points on the same land mass instead of on different land masses. For an example of b), if 4 invasions each randomly occurred on either of the same 2 land masses, then most players would be invaded at least once on each of the land masses.

Quoted from reply#6:

I suppose you mean without going into debt.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-20-2005 @ 03:22 PM).]

Typo, yes I didn't go into debt. Thanks.

HEAVY SPOILER WARNING
HEAVY SPOILER WARNING
HEAVY SPOILER WARNING

IIRC,
'random' invasion points of scripted one-time-events are fix if they are derived from the same .map file. I.e. to randomize them again (after creation of event), it is necessary to load them into the map editor. This confers to events 36 - 40 below.
As you can see I have the invasion points 7-2-7-6-4 instead of NeroWould's 6-6-4-6-4 (which is probably a Pharao install).

As Max pointed out, the critical event is ' 19', this one is (logical) unavoidable and the only one with "moving" invasion points (but only from 1-3 and not 1-8).

Now the question: when is the invasion point of event 19 determined?
(You both are right)
When the soldiers of the previous event (18 water invasion) are disembarked, this event is from the 'event state machines point of view' completed. Now event 19 is triggered & the invasion point randomized. 3 months later the first invasion message of event 19 is emitted. A year later the invasion begins.

Who has seen the loophole???
A design flaw: if all transports of (18 water invasion) are sunk before reaching their destiny, event 19 is never triggered - resulting in a broken event chain. BTW, ..., ok, all who are interested know that thread.

(The following information was obtained directly from "Iken" in my Cleo2.1 installation)
-------------------------------------------------------

EVE.EXE: Pharaoh/Cleo xxx.map & xxx.sav __EventListViewer__V1.6 (by civilis)

/*********************************| eve e iken.sav |***/

[...]

' 16':
Request of a city, city: 5, (1x), Feb year 1,
'threat', delay 1 months, [status: 0/00]
goods: copper, amount: 200
comply:auto->' 17' reject:auto->' 20' belate:auto->' 17'

' 17':
KR decrease, (trig), in months: 1, auto->' 18'
amount: 35, city: 5

' 18':
Invasion, (trig), in months: 6, cyclic->' 19'
enemy army, strength: 32, warships: 5, delay 9 months,
route: 5, invasionpoints: 9, target: random

' 19':
Invasion, (trig), in months: 3, cyclic->' 21'
enemy army, strength: 64, delay 12 months,
route: 5, invasionpoints: 1-3 [2], target: food

' 20':
KR increase, (trig), in months: 1, random->' 18'
amount: 15, city: 5

' 21':
Invasion, (trig), in months: 3, cyclic->' 22'
enemy army, strength: 72, delay 12 months,
route: 5, invasionpoints: 3, target: troops

' 22':
Invasion, (trig), in months: 9, cyclic->' 23'
enemy army, strength: 24, warships: 6, delay 9 months,
route: 5, invasionpoints: 9, target: food

' 23':
Invasion, (trig), in months: 2, specific->' 25'
enemy army, strength: 96, delay 4 months,
route: 5, invasionpoints: 3, target: random

' 24':
City status change, (trig), in months: 1, auto->'stop'
city: 5 'trade route available'

' 25':
KR increase, (trig), in months: 6, direct->' 24'
amount: 25, city: 2

[...]

' 36':
Invasion, (1x), Oct year 12, auto->'stop'
bedouin army, strength: 64, delay 6 months,
route: !!!route conflict, invasionpoints: 1-8 [7], target: random, [status: 0/00]

' 37':
Invasion, (1x), Apr year 15, auto->'stop'
bedouin army, strength: 64, delay 6 months,
route: !!!route conflict, invasionpoints: 1-8 [2], target: random, [status: 0/00]

' 38':
Invasion, (1x), Nov year 20, auto->'stop'
bedouin army, strength: 64, delay 4 months,
route: !!!route conflict, invasionpoints: 1-8 [7], target: random, [status: 0/00]

' 39':
Invasion, (1x), Aug year 23, auto->'stop'
bedouin army, strength: 96, delay 6 months,
route: !!!route conflict, invasionpoints: 1-8 [6], target: random, [status: 0/00]

' 40':
Invasion, (1x), Jan year 27, auto->'stop'
bedouin army, strength: 96, delay 4 months,
route: !!!route conflict, invasionpoints: 1-8 [4], target: random, [status: 0/00]

I have the same Cleo install, with 72764, and indeed managed to sink all transports on the first naval attack, guess that explains why it kept so quiet on the Eastern front

So Brugle doesn't have to worry about being disappointed at playing a very different game than other Cleo players, but it will be difficult to forget all the future knowledge. Have fun!

I am sorry to report, that I misread NeroWould's Iken-Excelsheet.
The 6-6-4-6-4 pattern I took is obviously the delay between announcement and begin of the invasions. Would be interesting to know the pattern which a pharaoh install actually has.

Joshofet, that you found the same 72764 strengthens my rememberance: 'random' invasion points of scripted one-time-events are fix if they are derived from the same .map file. One moment I hesitated to write, because I thought this may be valid only for custom maps, not for the original missions.

Sinking all transports costs also a KR increase of 25 & the City status change 'trade route available' of the threatening city. I have no idea what this means for the mission - and when I come around to play it (from the time aspect probably in my next life ) I have surely forgotten all the future knowledge.

Have fun!

PS. "eve d immediately-before-disembarkment.sav immediately-after.sav" shows what happens eventwise ... (also useful to check hexeditchanges)
PPS. Of course I would be proud to give this tool to all the good angels of HG - in case they might be interested to look for some things themselves.

Hi civilis,

thanks for the information - nice program BTW

Are you sure about the broken chain?

I'm sure that in my Iken none of the enemy soldiers had a chance to disembark, but all events of the chain were triggered.

I completed the city after the kingdom increase of event 25 with these results:
Culture: 70
Prosperity: 100
Kingdom: 83
Funds: 36815
Population: 6185 (57 Fancy Residences and 8 Stately Manors)
Months: 115
Level: very hard
Score: 21367

I play with Cleo 2.1 (German version).

Hi Max,
no I'm not sure about the broken chain. I analysed all those event information 2 years ago, and simply can't remember all details. Your comment is a hint, that the broken chain info is wrong.
I'm sure that the automatic event object of a river invasion (here: '18') isn't released correctly to the pool of FREE Event Objects after the invasion in the case of all trsp sunken. Question is wether the automatic event object of the next event (here: '19') is correctly allocated from the pool of FREE Event Objects. Maybe I wrote about that in this rather long thread: Forums » Pharaoh: Scenario Design » Event details & breaking of event chains.

In any case, it can be checked by "eve d immediately-before-disembarkment.sav immediately-after.sav" (Joshofet?)
If you are interested, I can mail your exemplar of eve to you, provided you promise, that you don't distribute it yourself & never use information gained with its help in future contests.

Unfortunately I have alrady deleted al my intermediate saves from Iken. If you play at very easy, it is no big deal to recreate the event in any which way you like.