[This message has been edited by StephAmon (edited 08-23-2005 @ 05:20 PM).]
Figure 1. Critical squares for the grounded walks of a three-man jump team. Pop-ups on the plazas and oddly colored road tiles specify their roles in governing teleportation. Small statues mark routing centers (NW not shown). The road to the NW is much longer than shown. North lies toward upper left.
Figure 2. Selected critical squares for a three-man jump team leaving a pavilion with an absence-defaulted northwest walk. The spotter (the juggler) starts a southeast walk. Pop-ups on colored road and plaza tiles specify walk-start, -target, and -finish locations. Small statues mark routing centers. Much of the road-free NW routing zone is highlighted in desert.
[This message has been edited by StephAmon (edited 08-23-2005 @ 05:12 PM).]
This is great stuff! For those of us who are really lazy, reply #1 should include a link to your Ambulomancy thread, You imply that tax collectors don't wander off into the wilderness like architects, but I've noticed tax collectors doing that fairly often. (Since tax collectors are typically found in crowded housing blocks, they often encounter a solid object and disappear immediately upon turning away from the "normal" route.) Entertainers (at least musicians) can teleport when leaving their "school". This has caused me problems only once or twice, and it was easy to correct (by moving the conservatory a little), but it would be nice to know when and how it occurs. When both traders from an upgraded bazaar are generated at exactly the same time, one typically teleports (while the other appears in the normal place). From my limited observations, I'd guess that there are two places that bazaar traders may teleport--one is to a square fairly near the bazaar (perhaps a previous walk target, like for entertainers), and the other is to a previous destination (storage yard or perhaps granary) of one of the bazaar's buyers. Also, I've seen a report of one bazaar trader generated (in the normal place) when two (one of them teleporting) would have been expected (which might mean that the teleporting trader appeared on a roadless "emergency walk-start square" and quickly disappeared). "Roaming" entertainers in general (including senet players and jugglers from booths) sometimes disappear instead of returning to their buildings. They may display other unusual behavior, but I haven't noticed any. [This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 08-23-2005 @ 07:24 PM).]
Thank you for noticing and commenting. I also owe you a bunch of thanks for rekindling my interest in roamers. Posting Ambulomancy was a big enough effort that I was pretty well burnt out until you started raising questions that I could almost answer.
Brugle:
I like the idea of collecting unusual walker data in a single convenient spot for easy reference. Maybe the information would make a good table: something like a “Table of Bad Habits”. Each row could correspond to a different walker and we could assign each bizarre habit to a different column. Different letters as table entries could indicate things like whether a walker just vanishes or ghosts home.
I think I might be able to tackle such a task without a lot of trouble right now, because I have *.sav files of lab setups with convenient roads for checking many of the properties - as long as I do not wait so long that I forget the all the file names. I am kind of on the verge of burning out again right now, not so much from fooling around with teleportation, but my first nine hours of trying to figure out confused walks were a nightmare. Arrgghh! Why don’t the little vermin just stay on the roads and save us all a lot of aggravation?!?
Tax collectors in the weeds? I might have known these guys would cause more trouble. I’ll check. I also want to check senet players. Somebody on the design team might have thought it was appropriate to have the game’s big drinkers get lost and fall off the roads.
I can independently confirm your observation that jugglers from booths vanish sometimes. I also stuck one in Max’s off-road-inducing geometry and he went off road just like he came from a pavilion. Still need to check folks from bandstands, but I’d be astonished if source venue influenced (non-teleporting) bad habits at this point.
Two weeks ago, I would not have known what you were talking about with your observation of entertainers teleporting from their schools. Now, I do. I saw it with dancers leaving their school. I was tempted to drop what I was doing and try to learn more about it, but (for once) sanity (or self discipline) prevailed, and I managed to persuade myself that these guys were destination walkers and, therefore, not my department. Might dance schools simply use a different priority order for walk-start squares? One that assigns higher priorities to some squares further away from schools than to other squares right next to the schools? Sort of like the non-adjacent walk-finish squares you found for temple complexes? I am not sure I am the right guy to tackle this project. The last time I tried to figure out walk-start squares (for bandstands), I screwed up and Jimhotep had to save me.
I may take a shot at teleportation from bazaars before too long. If they work a lot like pavilions, they should not be too bad. If the conditions needed to initiate teleportation are different, however, then they might chew up a prohibitive amount of research time. We’ll see.
I’ll come back here and post again if I learn more about any of these phenomena.
For now, thanks to both of you for reading my (way-too-long) post.
StephAmon
My Menat Khufu has a tax collector who'll go "in the weeds". In October, the tax collector in the northeast block will leave the loop road (through a roadblock) and disappear fairly soon (when he tries to go through a house), and on his next walk he'll simply disappear (when he tries to go through a temple). If the buildings in his way are deleted beforehand, he'll go a few tiles over bare ground, disappear, and invisibly return to his building (without registering houses for taxation). When returning to his building invisibly, he can be tracked as a "red spot" in the Administration/Tax income overlay, and he appears to take the shortest route back to his building, travelling diagonally if necessary (like your "ghosting architects").
Quoted from reply#8:
...I managed to persuade myself that these guys were destination walkers and, therefore, not my department.
Quoted from reply#1:
Entertainers arriving from their schools as destination walkers are a bit trickier...
Another couple of questions, not related your previous post:
Quoted from reply#4:
If an entertainer appears on the emergency walk-start square and that square contains no road, the entertainer vanishes after a very few animation frames of time have passed.
Quoted from reply#1:
If the stage for his/her type of arriving walker is unoccupied, then the walker disappears on the walk-start square of the dance stage. If a show is in progress on the stage for entertainers of the new arrival’s type, then the walker disappears on the walk-finish square of the dance stage.
I hope you don't get too burned out. It's happened to me, as forumers who've followed some of my walkthroughs (and waited months for the next installment) know.
[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 08-24-2005 @ 02:38 PM).]
The "chain of walk-targets" seems to be an underlying feature in how walkers normally behave; frex a grounded walk starts a random walk on the target square of its destination walk. Walkers typically become destination walkers at their "go home" part of their journey. The same mechanism, in a distorted form, seems to be present in teleportation.
StephAmon has noted that if a bandstand is destroyed and rebuilt in a different configuration while a musician is en route, it will subsequently produce two musicians. Both of these facts are remarkable; that a musician will serve in a different bandstand than the one it was trained for, and that a bandstand will produce multiple musicians.
How far away can it be built, I wonder? I bet the musician has to end up somewhere in the venue; but does it necessarily have to be adjacent to the north tile of the music stage?
That reminds me of something.
I want to report a tidbit that is already probably well known, but that I don't recall seeing written down anywhere. It is well documented that the interior roads of a pavilion can be disconnected from the rest of the road system; entertainers and labor seekers will enter and exit through the sides of the dance stage. (Note that the normal priority for a walk-start square are suspended; if the NE side of the dance stage is in the pavilion, and the SW side is adjacent to a road, the labor seeker will leave by the SW side.) Well, the same thing is true for a bandstand. If the northern tile of the music stage is adjacent to a road, labor seekers will exit there, and entertainers will enter there, in manner analagous for a pavilion.
Speaking of those pavilions, I built one in the usual way and built a dance school nearby. Then I built another dance school that was on a disconnected road that touched the dance stage. No dancers were dispatched. Only when the road systems were connected did a dancer appear. It entered by the dance stage, however, and didn't go around to where the roadways joined. Destroying and rebuilding the pavilion eliminated this behavior. I didn't try all the permutations, but it did strike me as odd. It also offers another hint at the connection between schools and venues.
Those dancers remind me of something else. Something I was going to watch for, but never got around to doing. StephAmon notes that when there is no show going on, an entertainer enters by the walk-start square. If there is a show going on, it enters by the walk-end square. I wondered if that was also the same with buildings that are animated when they receive supplies; potters and weavers and such. But I never got around to checking.
So many interesting things occur to me when my Pharaoh disk is on the other computer! I hope I didn't get the details wrong. Was it a pavilion or a bandstand that I tried to serve with two schools?
Ouch! You've got me dead to rights on destination walkers. But, I still think I'd be likely to make a hash of it if I tried to figure out teleportation from schools.
I think you are also right about the need for conditions to be met to enable teleportation from bazaars and pavilions, but I'm not sure about dance schools. I saw every single dancer leaving her school "teleport" onto the same square of the same road, as long as that road was available (a few dozen dancers).
I do not know if a musician or dancer will move a single square to get to a road from a road-free emergency walk-start square. It sounds like something that would be worth checking. I do know that she will not move two squares to get onto the nearest road.
I would wager a big stack of debens that you are right about the time at which the destination-walking entertainer is assigned her arrival square for a pavilion or bandstand. If a second juggler left his school on the way to a pavilion before the first juggler from the same school got there, the destination-walk of the second juggler would be generated (and perhaps "locked in") while the juggle platform was unoccupied. Interesting and checkable. I would not have seen this effect because all my schools were quite close to the pavilions I played with. (So close, in fact, that arrriving dancers teleported directly from school to pavilion at one point!)
As much as I love walker research, I think I had better take a break and actually play the game for a bit. You would not, by any chance, know how I could get my hands on a copy of Djed Djedi's spreadsheet would you? The links in his "New City Designing Tool" thread no longer seem to work. I would love to eliminate the need for entering maps by hand into PDC if I could.
Many thanks for the great ideas.
The table shows one column to indicated whether a particular kind of roamer makes confused walks, but it includes no separate columns to show whether the walkers make walks aborted by distance and walks shorted only by blockage. I am pleased to offer independent corroboration of Brugle's observation of ghosting by tax collectors. I will include the above table in the next edition of Ambulomancy, which may be coming out sooner than I thought. StephAmon
Walker Recruits labor Confusible Ghosts after vanishing Default walk length Walk-start type Fireman Yes No N.A. 43 Common Policeman No No N.A. 43 Government Magistrate No No N.A. 43 Government Tax collector Yes Yes Yes 35 Government Architect Yes Yes Yes 43 Common All entertainers Yes Yes No 35 Common All others Yes No N.A. 26 Common or special
Thank you for the tips. They helped. In fact, I would not have had the patience to keep backing up, tweaking the roads, and trying again to get more plague carriers without your assurance that there was a random component to the carrier's appearance. In fact, my observations supported every one of your rules regarding plague. I have also recorded enough new observations that I thought it might be helpful to put them in a separate thread with "plague" in the title for the convenience of future players who - perhaps in an emergency - want to learn a bit more about plague carriers.
I'm just ironing out the last couple of details right now. It sure would be nice if I could find a firm rule governing the initial direction taken by a plague carrier if he appears in a straight road or on a corner similar to the rules for default walks by ordinary roaming walkers in the same road geometries. I already know, however, that if such standard initial carrier directions exist, they are not the same as default initial directions.
That's funny. I thought it was quite obvious.Quoted from Trium:
how on earth you came to make such an unobvious observation
I missed your latest posts in the "Saved games tool (C3GameExplorer)" thread. Thanks for calling it to my attention.Quoted from Trium:
I mentioned this in reply 14 of this thread in the C3 Scenario Designers' Forum
Perhaps. On the other hand, there are a lot of subtle differences in walker behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if the designers knew what they were doing.Quoted from Trium:
I would think it fair to call this behaviour unintended (i.e. a bug) ... Perhaps these walkers were never intended to do the 'long' walk in the first place, and perhaps they didn't 'fix' it after C3 because they were happy with the effect.
StephAmon also calls a confusable walker who reaches his walk target after a walk that is longer than the default walk length distance-shorted, so I guess you'd say that that is also semantically incorrect. Perhaps so. This passage from Ambulomancy suggests that StephAmon considers shorting to be anything (other than non-connection) that prevents a grounded walk (walking to the walk-target then roaming for the default walk length):Quoted from Trium:
This class of walker is one who would in fact have reached his walk target despite it being beyond his normal 'default' walk length had it not been for the road-block. I think therefore that StephAmon's assertion that the walk is distance-shorted is semantically incorrect.
(I did not search StephAmon's old posts for a precise definition.)Quoted from StephAmon:
When a blockage-free walk-target has been identified, the algorithm compares the length of the shortest circuit to d. If shortest-circuit length is strictly less than d (not “less than or equal” to d), then the target is deemed to be walkable, no shorting occurs, and a grounded walk (described below) is issued.
Only if you assume that the code programs unintended behavior.Quoted from Trium:
there appears to be a coding conflict
I'm pretty sure that I saw a tax collector turn to face his building, disappear, and return invisibly after a confused walk. The only difference from a 'normal' blockage-shorted walk is that the 'normal' walk has already gone the start-to-walk-target distance after roaming but the confused walk has not.Quoted from Trium:
This behaviour is only observed on (what would have been) 'long' walks - on 'normal' blockage shorted walks he turns to face his home building, disappears and returns invisibly.
Not all of them do that. A tax collector starts his 'physical' walk at his destination square (as does a C3 engineer), but an architect might not and a senet player might not.Quoted from Trium:
One does wonder why this class of walker has these idiosynchracies - the same class spawns 'invisibly' on its building's normal starting square then walks diectly to its destination square to start its 'physical' walk.
[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 09-01-2009 @ 12:41 PM).]
The walker will disappear on a road tile (that may be roadblocked) which is adjacent to a side (not just a corner) of the dance stage and is the first such road tile encountered when going clockwise around the dance stage from the tile N of the N tile of the dance stage. That tile will be the walk-start square of the dance stage only if it is not roadblocked. For details, seeQuoted from StephAmon:
If the stage for his/her type of arriving walker is unoccupied, then the walker disappears on the walk-start square of the dance stage.
I've always doubted this. I don't have Pharaoh on this machine, but I recall observing (and can confirm in C3) that the first tile found determines the walk target. If it is disconnected, a default walk ensues regardless of whether any connected tiles are in the same 'search ring'. I use this regularly to prevent walkers taking routes I don't want them to.Quoted from Stephamon:
If no road connection is found to the provisional target (i.e, if the provisional target is "disconnected"), the algorithm continues searching the remainder of the search ring ..... As soon as a connected road square (in the same search ring) is found, it becomes the confirmed walk target .... If the search of all the squares in the same ring as the provisional (disconnected) target is completed without discovering any connected road squares, then the status of the provisional walk target is changed to confirmed and targeting ends.
[This message has been edited by Trium (edited 01-26-2010 @ 11:26 PM).]
In this respect, Pharaoh and C3 are different. StephAmon is correct.Quoted from Trium:
I don't think Pharaoh is any different
Quoted from Brugle:
There is a possibly-related fact suggested by StephAmon in reply #3 (or the second edition of Ambulomancy) together with reply #14. If the distance to the target square is greater than the default walk length, and if there are no roadblocks along the route before the default walk length has been traveled, then an architect or tax collector or entertainer will walk to the target square and vanish.
This what I was looking for, and I think I can make senet players, zoo keepers, architects and tax collectors take long trips everytime. I made a test with the zookeeper in my Hetep24k and it worked.Quoted from Brugle:
If the distance to the target square is greater than the default walk length, and if there are no roadblocks along the route before the default walk length has been traveled, then an architect or tax collector or entertainer will walk to the target square and vanish.
With this new perspective (case 2 for architects, tax collectors and entertainers) I don't call this long walk as a confused walk. I would say it is a braver walk, when the others return home (coward), the architects, tax collectors and entertainers continue to finish the given order: walk to the target square, although they will be dead in the end. The only confused walk is in the case 3: a roadblock makes them confused.Quoted from Brugle:
The long walk described above (that architects, tax collectors, and entertainers can take) is actually a "confused" walk. (It isn't obviously confused because it follows the roads.)
The pattern is described in reply #17.Quoted from andib2n:
he/she becomes confused, ... There must be a pattern where he/she walks, but I don't know about it yet
Your explanation seems to me to be more complicated, but if it appeals to you that's fine.Quoted from andib2n:
what do you think?
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