To avoid any chance of inadvertently using the monthly tax manipulation cheat, I decided to do the following at the start of each month: set the tax rate to 25% if city sentiment is very pleased (or better), and set the tax rate to 9% if city sentiment is pleased (or worse). The tax rate was lowered to 9% (for 1 month each time) twice in the 7th year.

6th year (165 BC): Built the first extra theater, to keep unemployment below 5%. Javelin troops exterminated the wolves. Received and dispatched a request for 10 meat. Favor rose 8. Placed 2 more vacant lots in the farming island block. Began the west farming plateau housing block (near the stairs) by placing 21 vacant lots. Ended with 988 people, 826 Db, Cu 58, Pr 30, Pe 22, Fa 50.

7th year (164 BC): Placed 25 more vacant lots in the west farming plateau block (some of which immediately merged into 2x2 small tents) and 2 more vacant lots in the farming island block. Built the first oracle. All houses in both blocks were small insulae. Ended with 1162 people, 208 Db, Cu 88, Pr 37, Pe 26, Fa 49.

Next, I intend to start the block whose immigrants have to travel the farthest, but that will temporarily make pottery consumption exceed production. I expect to start the 4th (and last) block and its pottery industry soon enough to prevent the city from running out of pottery.

Brugle:

Are you not getting crime by using that method of tax rate setting?

Naghite,

having wages at Rome+8 and tax at 25% leads to crime in newly formed tents. I am not quite sure about hovels and shacks, since I move my tax up to 25% only after all housing is at least evolved to small Casa.
Since I lower my tax to 7% when tents form, I don't get any crime.

Though I'm not Brugle (doh) I'm quite sure he does it much the same way to prevent crime leading to poor city mood.

Naghite,

Yes, the tax method described in reply #26 leads to some crime in tents (and perhaps other low-level houses), since the tax rate is not lowered until city sentiment falls. Since houses evolve to small insulae fairly quickly, the crime level in any given house never gets very high. City sentiment never goes below pleased.

However, as indicated by the Peace rating, there are protestors. I decided to put up with protestors in some years (3 out of 7 so far), so at this rate the Peace requirement won't be satisfied until the end of the 13th year. (Obviously, I am not using your "perfect Peace minus 1" rule.)

Jan 167 BC - 760 pop, 111 Dn, 37 cu, 12 pr, 7 pe, 37 fa.
Layed down another wheat farm, for a total of 8. Houses continue to evolve/devolve. In february city mood rose to very pleased, and I put taxes back at 25%. Crime is an issue though, in a couple of houses. In march I began the skelleton of an industry block. A combination of crime, immigrants and lack of money leads to 6% unemployement, city mood drops again. In july one of my tax collectors gets robbed and I drop into debt...

I am still in debate whether I start all over again, or restart playing from January 168 BC.

Shenghi,

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. It's your decision of course, but if I had a similar problem I'd figure out why houses devolve and then start over (with more stable housing and keeping all gods except Neptune from getting mad). In reply #24, you suggested that houses devolved because there weren't enough 2x2s, but I don't understand why that would matter unless you aren't making enough pottery.

Brugle,

The problem mentioned in reply #24 was indeed pottery, but that seems to be fixed now. The problem now is a lack of food, though I have 7 farms for ~700-800 people (7 farms should support 7*160=1120 people) so I'm really puzzled as to _why_ I don't have enough food.. but thát is the reason my housing keeps devolving.

Shenghi,
I'll assume that each of your farms is 100% efficient (always fully staffed and its cart pusher returns before the next crop is harvested) and that no food is lost. In that case, 7 farms can produce enough to feed at least 1120 people, but you were not just feeding people--you were also stocking houses with food. Each house tries to keep an 8 to 16 month supply of food for its residents. When the fed population of a city grows by X, houses increase their stocks by approximately the amount of food that would be required to feed X people for a year. In your 3rd year, it appears that either there were not enough farms (or stored food) or the population grew too quickly.

Growth gradually increases.

8th year (163 BC): Nothing was done during the middle 10 months of the year (as the city went from a worker shortage to slight unemployment). Began the east farming plateau housing block by placing 42 vacant lots. Placed 1 more vacant lot in the farming island block. Ended with 1387 people, 882 Db, Cu 75, Pr 28, Pe 31, Fa 48.

9th year (162 BC): Placed 13 more vacant lots in the east farming plateau block (some of which immediately merged into 2x2 small tents). Built the first gladiator school (whose graduates walk to the west farming plateau block amphitheater through the east farming plateau block). Received and dispatched a request for 10 meat. Favor rose 8. All houses in the 3 blocks were small insulae. Ended with 1838 people, 780 Db, Cu 70, Pr 35, Pe 35, Fa 55.

1 housing block remains to be started.

Replayed from the progressive save of Jan 168 BC.

Jan 168 BC - 347 pop, 15 Dn, 45 cu, 6 pr, 3 pe, 38 fa.
Immediately placed temples to Ceres and Venus to prevent their wraths, followed by a second market in February. Lowered the tax for a month to get city mood up from indifferent to very pleased. Slowly added more farms untill I had 8. Then placed a pig farm, just in case Caesar would want meat soon -- This also because it would take too long to start meat production on the farming plateau later. Next year I'll be starting marble and weapon industry, to be prepared for anything. I kept population a little lower than last time, and this time all housing was rock stable.

Jan 167 BC - 704 pop, 45 Dn, 41 Cu, 11 pr, 8 pe, 37 fa.
Placed 2 mission posts to keep unemployement low, and started slowly placing the skeleton for the industry island. This was done carefully, and in July I had exactly 0 Dn. Because of somewhat high unemployement, mood dropped to indifferent, but after 3 vacant lots in the industry block were populated, things got better, though I had to place a couple of non-required engineer posts in on the farm island to prevent the mood from dropping to annoyed. Received and dispatched a meat request. Unfortunately I was not yet able to start other industries, but now that the block has access to labor and I have a full granary, getting the labor should not be a problem next year.

Jan 166 BC - 764 pop, 104 Dn, 42 cu, 18 pr, 12 pe, 36 fa.
Population is going up much slower than expected. I evolved the industry block to small insulae and added some (9?) vacant lots to the farming island. I'm now short on workers though. I set up another pottery industry anyway, to get a big surplus. I'll wait with other industries untill I got the workers, or Rome asks for it. Rome thanked me for my meat dispatch btw, and favor rose 8.

Jan 165 BC - 873 pop, 100 Dn, 54 cu, 25 pr, 16 pe, 43 fa.
Welled the first pack of wolves, added some more vacant lots to the farm block. City sentiment rose to love when I lowered taxes to get rid of some crime. Received another meat request from Rome, which I could dispatch instantly. Favor rose 8. Besides that, this was mainly a year of waiting. I am still short of workers, and people are still moving in slowly.

Jan 164 BC - 907 pop, 284 Dn, 54 cu, 32 pr, 20 pe, 50 fa.
Redesigned the natives road system, welled the second wolfpack. Population is rising too slow and I got some spare cash, so it's time to design the first farm plateau block, and probably the rest of the city while I'm at it.

Started marble industry and placed the skeleton for the western farming plateau block.

Jan 163 BC - 1064 pop, 32 Dn, 47 cu, 39 pr, 24 pe, 49 fa.
Built the first oracle. The rest of the year was spent on laying aqueducts to support the western farming plateau block with water from the north. Afterwards I realised that I could probably have afforded it in 2-3 months had I done it from the south, but as mentioned earlier, this isn't about speed for me.

Jan 162 BC - 1110 pop, 63 Dn, 60 cu, 46 pr, 29 pe, 48 fa.
Started populating the western farming plateau block by placing 14 vacant lots. Once they were populated I added a granery, warehouse, a market and 4 farms. As soon as they received food I added the buildings required to evolve to large casa, and a forum. Received and dispatched a meat request. Favor rose 8.

Jan 161 BC - 1260 pop, 69 Dn, 75 cu, 45 pr, 33 pe, 55 fa.
Added an amphitheater to the western farming plateau block, placed another oracle and 2 more farms. When housing evolved to small insulae, placed 8 more vacant lots. I had to relocate my temple to get full religious coverage... Do priests behave different than most random walkers?

Jan 160 BC - 1438 pop, 369 Dn, 75 cu, 46 pr, 38 pe, 59 fa.
I have no idea what caused my favor to rise, but surely something did...
Planned for this year: adding 29 more vacant lots to complete the western farming plateau block. Lay the skeleton for all farms and the eastern farming plateau block. Starting weapons industry if I have the money to do so. After this year it's time to design the final block.

>> Placed 25 more vacant lots in the western farming plateau block, finishing it. A calculation error made me think for a while there was space for 29. Initially 52 housing tiles had been planned there, but due to a lack of space I had to do with a few less -- it's 47 now. Started weapons industry, finally. Theater coverage dropped to excellent for the first time.

Jan 159 BC - 1603 pop, 633 Dn, 68 cu, 50 pr, 42 pe, 58 fa.
Placed 2 more granaries near the western farming plateau block. Deleted a redundant engineers post at the farming island block, relocated the library and forum there so I could add my 3rd oracle. Placed a second theater near the western farming plateau block to raise coverage to perfect again. It's walker won't cover anything -- with the exception of 3 housing tiles which already have theater coverage -- though. Received and dispatched a marble request. Favor rose 8. Placed the last mission post, the natives are now fully pacified. I don't think I'll need the native village to build in, though.

The year isn't finished yet, but it's time to design the final part of my Lugdunum before I continue. This because I earn more than I can spend, simply because of a worker shortage.

More to come...

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-17-2006 @ 09:37 AM).]

Quoted from Shenghi:

No. For example, I'd guess that if you put a library in place of the temple whose priest isn't covering the whole block, then the librarian from that library wouldn't cover the whole block either. Can you describe what the priest did and what you expected him to do?

Quoted from Shenghi:

A mission has 3 milestones, where Favor will rise or fall depending on whether you achieve at least 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of all ratings. Normally, those milestones are at 10, 20, and 30 years.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 04-17-2006 @ 06:25 PM).]

Quoted from Brugle:

The temple was located exactly in the middle of a 12 tile road, which was part of a rectangle of 32 road tiles. I expected the priest would walk around the block. Instead, it would walk up to the second corner when going north, or little farther when going south, and would then simply dissapear. After placing the temple 4 tiles more to the south, the priest would behave as expected and finish his round.
I would post the block as it was before and after relocating the temple, but just like doubleposting, the Glyphy script won't work for me.

Quoted from Brugle:

Yeah, I figured that was the reason after reading the documentation on Caesar Alans 'The Appian Way' on Favor.

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-17-2006 @ 06:48 PM).]

Shenghi,
When a walker who normally doesn't disappear (such as a priest) disappears, that often means that its building touches a another unconnected road. If so, that explains the disappearance but not the disappearance after such a short distance. I'm puzzled. If you have a saved game that demonstrates the behavior, then you could send it (zipped) to the address in my profile, mentioning C3 in the email subject.

I will see if there is a progressive save which has the temple at that spot, though I doubt it. Otherwise I will try if relocating the temple back to it's planned position in the final save will recreate the problem.

Which leads me to the following subject: I am finished. The last save is in January 151 BC with 4954 pop. Winning occurs in May of that year.

Final ratings: 5003 pop, 100 cu, 50 pr, 77 pe, 74 fa.
After continue to govern, population should still rise a bit, but since I built some housing not previously planned and had to remove some housing I did plan because of desirability problems I can't calculate how much I would end with.

From most years I got a save in January, though I forgot to look at the month a few times, in which case I saved as fast as I noticed. The interesting part of the playing description is past, as the money problems were no longer after the second block was up.

Perhaps one point worth noticing: I didn't build a single gladiator school or actor colony, resulting in having to rely on city-wide coverage for housing stability.

Should I put a zip with all progressive saves in the downloads section?

[edit]
I think I understand the problem. The priest walked just fine untill I placed a row of gardens behind the temple, after which it started to behave weird, though I didn't describe it correctly. Instead of dissapearing when I said it did, it would turn around and walk back to the temple. Relocating the temple meant that it would no longer be backed by gardens, thus solving the problem.
[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-17-2006 @ 08:03 PM).]

Shenghi,

Yes, sometimes garden act as roads, including when most random walkers return to their buildings. I can imagine the priest behaving as you describe with a particular configuration of roads and gardens. This depends on the priest getting turned around at a corner, which sometimes occurs in 1 walk out of 4 (which would be enough).

Quote:

I doubt that anyone would want to download all of your progessive saves, but it's your choice.

I have also finished Lugdunum, and will report on it when I have time. I had planned on submitting just the final save to the downloads, but now that you mention it, I'll probably also include another save from early in the mission.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 04-17-2006 @ 08:49 PM).]

Brugle,

I supose you're right, 21 saves is too much I submitted only the final save instead. I'm very eager to see your version, no doubt I can learn a lot from it.

Shenghi,
Congratulations on your achievement. (I should have said so earlier.)

All,
Lugdunum without trade at Very Hard with no debt or "rescue" (and no cheats or personal funds, of course) is perhaps the most challenging non-contest mission I've ever played. I highly recommend it to experienced players, especially with some of the additional "personal rules" listed in replies #8 and #25 (such as "no penning wolves" and "no mission posts").

Victory was achieved after 13 years, when the Peace and Prosperity requirements were satisfied. The population requirement was reached a few months earlier, helped by having a little more housing than originally planned. (My design was sloppy: 1 house does not have school coverage.)

10th year (161 BC): Began the far west housing block by placing 50 vacant lots. Placed 1 more vacant lot in the farming island block. Ended with 2202 people, 1680 Db, Cu 55, Pr 31, Pe 40, Fa 59.

11th year: Began producing clay and pottery on the mainland. Placed 6 more vacant lots in the farming island block, 30 more vacant lots in the far west block, the last 6 vacant lots in the east farming plateau block, and the last 9 vacant lots in the west farming plateau block. Ended with 3144 people, 1005 Db, Cu 56, Pr 38, Pe 44, Fa 58.

12th year: Placed 22 more vacant lots in the far west block and the last vacant lot in the farming island block. Around mid-year, there (finally) seemed to be enough money! Built the first actor colony. Received and dispatched a request for 10 marble. Favor rose 8. Ended with 4346 people, 2432 Db, Cu 100, Pr 45, Pe 48, Fa 65.

13th year (158 BC): Placed the last 2 vacant lots in the far west block. All houses were small insulae. Built the first prefectures. Ended with 5120 people, 7048 Db, Cu 100, Pr 50, Pe 52, Fa 64, and victory.

Continuing to govern after victory, the population stabilizes at 5415 after about 20 months, with unemployment remaining below 5%.

I submitted my no trade Lugdunum to the Downloads. (I decided to include only the final save, but will submit a set of progressive saves if anyone is interested.)

Brugle,

I would be interested in a set of progressive saves. If I'm the only one you could mail them to the address in my profile instead of submitting them to the downloads.

Shenghi,
OK, I'll prepare a set of progressive saves and submit them to the Downloads. Now, I must select about 6 of the 77 saves that would be the most interesting.

Brugle,

I would be most interested in saves that show how you expand your population so fast. In the very early years I expended just as fast, perhaps even a slight bit faster, but after that you were so much faster. A difference that was made by more than just my 'mistake' of supplying water from the north instead of south.

I submitted a set of 8 progressive saves to the Downloads, each with a 1-line description. Here are those descriptions, with some extra commentary:

170BCJun - A month after people first settle in the farming island block.
Wheat, clay, and pottery are being produced. Ceres is becoming happier.

169BCFeb - Starting the push to get past the 200-300 people barrier.
The push began when all 39 small tents were full. 2 fountains were built (allowing houses to evolve to shacks or hovels) and 7 more vacant lots were placed.

169BCSep - Taxation is about to start.
City sentiment is very pleased. The treasury was drained to beautify the neighborhood.

166BCSep - The "wolf killer" company fort is built.
It was expensive.

164BCMay - People first settle in the west farming plateau block.
Wheat is being produced on the mainland. The initial 21 vacant lots in this block had been placed only in locations that will be the north tile of 2x2 squares of housing. Once people started settling, vacant lots were placed (5 this month, 20 more next month) to form the maximum number of 2x2 houses (one of which already formed), to minimize pottery consumption.

162BCMay - A month after people first settle in the east farming plateau block.
Maximizing 2x2 houses in this block was important (since pottery consumption will temporarily exceed production), but so was getting more people into them (since immigrants will have to travel far). 42 vacant lots (including 16 that will not be the north tile of 2x2 squares of housing) had been placed initially. 2x2 houses formed this month after 13 vacant lots were placed (3 of which did not merge into 2x2 houses).

160BCJan - People first settle in the far west block.
Clay is being produced on the mainland (and pottery production will soon follow). With pottery consumption no longer important, 2x2 houses (which would take a long time to fill) are not wanted at this time. Only 50 vacant lots had been placed initially, to keep Prosperity from dropping too far at the end of the previous year.

160BCSep - The 260th vacant lot (out of 285) is placed.
Vacant lots were placed in all 4 blocks in the past few months. The far west block currently has 80 tiles of housing, none of it in 2x2 squares. 25 vacant lots have not yet been placed, and each will be placed only when the 1x1 houses with which it might merge are nearly full.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 04-19-2006 @ 04:39 PM).]

Brugle,

First of all, I should congratulate you too. Lugdunum without trade is indeed quite hard, and you gave yourself some challenges that made it even harder. Despite that you still finished it faster than I could probably even have finished it with trade.

Secondly, thanks for submitting a set of progressive saves. From the description I can already make a fair aproximation of why you were so much faster. I payed no attention to 1x1 or 2x2 housing after the farming island block was done. But of course, coming to think of it, four 1x1 houses attract 4 times as much immigrants at the same time as one 2x2 house.

Shenghi,

Our recent Lugdunums are in the Downloads.

In your Lugdunum, immigration is restricted by the 2 roads touching houses in the western block that have no path to the entry point. Any house that uses one of those roads for an immigrant target will not get immigrants. If there are enough such houses with vacancies then any house that appears after them in the "housing list" maintained by the game will not get immigrants. Fortunately, there are only a few (apparently 5) such houses, so immigration to houses after them on the housing list is not blocked (but is probably slowed).

To demonstrate that the problem exists, right-click on the entry point--immigrants who don't appear on the map are displayed. To fix the problem, move a few buildings to provide a path to those 2 roads (and 5 extra immigrants will quickly appear).

Brugle,

I had no idea such a 'flaw' existed, thus I didn't pay attention to it. It is solved by moving a school and a engineers post.

Now that I know the problem can occur I will have a look at my No Trade Valentia design to see if I made the same mistake, before I start building it.

I also had a look at your Lugdunum and I must say I am once again impressed. There are so many very little things you do so good it's not even funny anymore. Like Naghite said in a reply in the no trade valentia thread: kudos to you Sir.

Quoted from Shenghi:

That non-obvious problem has bitten a lot of players. By the way, the same problem occurs if an immigrant has to go more than about 500 tiles to get to a house.

Quoted from Shenghi:

I hate to disagree after such nice compliments. While moving the school will provide a path to one of the roads, something besides the engineer post (such as the oracle about 20 tiles to the SE) must be moved to provide a path to the other.

Brugle,

I have to admit I did not test whether or not the immigrants I saw actually moved to those houses -- I did not have a lot of time. However when I moved the school and the engineer there were immidiately 5 immigrants.

Oh well, I might rebuild that Lugdunum one day, adding some more rules like not building mission posts and not penning wolves. But that will have to wait untill I finished both the peaceful and military campaign

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-26-2006 @ 02:22 PM).]