Making a comeback from the original...

Ideals to play by:

• Nights will last around 48 hours or so. If night choices come in earlier, it will dawn earlier.
  
• Days will last as long as they need to. If discussion lags, I will impose a deadline. If discussion picks up, the deadline will be rescinded.
  
• Votes must be in bold. If you do not bold your vote, it will not be counted.
  
• Please be attentive and unvote, if necessary, before casting a new vote. This is not required, but I’d appreciate it.
  
• Lynching will require a simple majority of votes. Once a player has reached the necessary majority, his pleas are useless and any attempts to unvote will be unheeded.
  
• You may vote: no lynch – majority votes of this kind are necessary to end the day without a death.
  
• The game is not to be discussed outside of the thread unless your role specifically states that you may do so.
  
• Note: Only Mafia may communicate at night. They may not do so during day.
  
• Once your death scene has been posted, you’re dead. Stop typing. Anywhere! No communicating with your Mafia buddies. I’m holding you to an honour call.
  
• Don’t edit/delete previously submitted posts
  
• Don’t quote any messages from me. You are liable to get mod-killed if you do.
  
• If you have a night choice to make, it is due by the posted deadline. I will not wait for you – if you do not submit a choice to me, tough! No choice will be made.
  
• If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period, please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
  
• I should post a vote count, which will be on the lead post so it'll be easily accessible.
  
• If you have any questions, you can email/IM me or ask in the thread. I'll get back to you as soon as possible, and with the best explanation that I can. You can also IM me if you want to tell someone about your day, or you thought something another player wrote was funny, or just to say hi.
  
• I am always right, but not always accurate. If I've made a mistake, please tell my by email as soon as possible. If you try to notify me in thread, I'll have to ask the mod to edit it and you will most likely be mod-killed.
  
• If I'm going to be unavailable for more than a day, I'll post that information
  
• Most importantly...this is a game and we're here to have fun. Do your part. Don’t be a jerk and spoil it for others. Most importantly, enjoy yourself!!
  

In light of the nature of this game, it might be ideal if there was as little discussion as possible (read:none) after the death scene has been posted.
Please be aware, in now way am I forbidding posts after the death scene. It is generally well followed in our games that three be no extraneous discussion at night but with the interests of both sides in mind, it is strongly suggested that there be no discussion in between two death scenes.
In the end, it's your call.

Waiting for Niempie to confirm and a couple of night choices. You know who you are!

EmperorJay is dead. He was the spook.

Day 1. 11 alive, 6 to lynch.

Discuss.

A spook? What the heck is that? A CIA agent or a ghost?

Well - I didn't play the first DTA... but having read it, it seems a lot like a mix between 'dethy' and the chat game I was just in.

In which case, we have lots of random sanity cops. A spook is (I presume) a CIA agent.

The easiest way to play this - I think, is how dethy is played - the players that are cops reveal themselves and give their results. We then no-lynch and get extra information... having pre-decided what the investigations for the next night are. We can then cross-correlate the results and start working out the sanity of the cops.

With only one kill, the players that are docs or roleblocks should choose the same targets as if there is more than one killing group then one of them was successful last night.

I know most of you are going to shudder with horror at my last post, so I back it up as follows:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=851

CL's approach certainly sounds interesting, but I was always under the impression that a no lynch on the first day was bad for the town. Could we not just all say who we investigated last night and, if one person was done multiple times, lynch them to try and get a handle on the sanity of at least some of the cops?

Quote:

That is kind of what I am suggesting but no-lynch is essential - however if for example all cops are paranoid and came up with a guilty... then we risk losing a townie needlessly. Also - scum will hide by saying that they found that 'often-picked' person innocent in attempt to prove their own innocence...
With a no-lynch we lose no townies... and thats assuming the person we lynch is a townie. The chances are they are a cop (and a valuable one at that).

The key concept is the order of the reveal however. Scum will use the information given to them to solidfy their arguments. It is useful to map the information in Excel, I certainly will be.

ALSO - This is, of course, assuming we have multiple cops (Pip could have done anything).

Quoted from header post:

we canot assume that this game is full of cops, since its not quite the same story

Vote ConLao

I do not believe that lynching a townie at this stage of the game is necessarily a bad thing. If we lose one, then it's clearly not ideal, but at least we will then know who are the paranoid / insane / naive cops. Your approach of a no lynch on the first day is, on the contrary, the very worst thing for the town. Your tactic would seem to be ideal for the scum, who will effectively get a free kill. This makes my scum senses twitch worryingly in your direction.

Of course, if Debbie's hypothesis is correct, then the basis of your theory rather falls away.

I'm a pro-town power role that isn't a cop.

Quote:

Nope - scum lie... that is the point... and one set of information is not usually enough (unless you are playing with completely inept scum). You need two sets ideally.

Why? OK - let's say Debbie is scum. She claims her investigation as follows: ARR is innocent. How does she know this? Well she is scum - of course she knows the innocents. Therefore she must be sane or naive.
Now let's see what happens when she claims: ARR is guilty. How does she know this? Well she is scum - but she must be paranoid or insane... because ARR is innocent, right?

...See where I'm going? We can't cross-correlate those results yet.

And anyone that advocates lynching a townie is VERY suspicious.

Your suggestion ARR will mean there is more chance we hit a pro-town person (eg a townie or possible power role). I would rather no-lynch... with just two nights worth of investigations you can usually catch scum.

And I must say that anyone that happily advocates lynching a possible pro-town player is VERY suspicious.

Of course - as you both point out - that's assuming there are lots of cops (as my original post DID state). If there aren't lots of cops, then my 'theory' (it wasn't a theory - just a suggestion) does fall away - however... you seem to be quite happy to carry on lynching your town away.

MAJOR FOS: ARR

Until I see any reason not to... the phrase "DONT TRUST ANYONE" means that people have information that may be incorrect. The main information gathering role in mafia games is the COP.

Therefore, until other evidence presents itself, I still think my suggestion is valid.

Further - What's the game called? Don't Trust Anybody.

Hmmm, maybe THE MOD is someone we can't trust either... in his little 'it's not quite the same story as before' thing.

What an utter piffling load of nonsense. The key in games like this where trust is potentially an issue (just as was the case in Amnesia) is knowledge. Those who are in the know are those who hold the power, and scum have a built-in structural advantage at the start of such games. By taking this superior knowledge out of their hands, we are leveling up the playing field for those of us who are in the dark.

Quoted from ConLao:

I too would agree that anyone happily lynching a townie is highly suspicious. However, a town sacrifice in order to establish some facts can be extremely valuable, and would help to re-balance the knowledge spectrum as mentioned above.

I simply fail to see how your suggestion helps the town. It gives the scum a free kill for very little in the way of tangible benefit. How would we proceed on day 2 under your scheme? How does postponing the lynch for a day mean that the scum will be magically discovered? If they can lie for one day, then they can lie for the second, and they get a free kill into the bargain.

Honestly - I find myself asking, whose side are you truly on???

*has a headache already*

Quoted from conlao:

so you are a doc? fat chance of your protecting me

Quote:

There are other pro-town power roles.

Tsk - Reck. I am getting majorly scummy vibes from you.

Quote:

Incorrect.
The scum would always get that kill. In general I do not advocate no lynch. I don't like it - however, the need for information is paramount and it is the key to this game.

Lynching the wrong person can be disastrous here (imagine if pip had only put one sane cop in against the rest naive). We lost one person last night - if the docs/roleblocks choose the same people again tonight then the chances are we will only lose one person again tonight.
This way we wake up tomorrow morning with two sets of information and two losses - your way we wake up with two sets of information and two confirmed town losses and 'probably' a third.
I say probably because the majority of day one lynches result in lynching a pro-town person for some silly mistake and with the extra confusion of possible sanity issues it's not worth the risk.

I hope that I will make sense of everything that is said already. But because I'm not home tonight, I don't have the time right now. But I will have the time tomorrow.(I'm about to leave home..)

While I am suspicious of ConLao (when am I not? ), I find this comment to be very strange:

Quote:

What does that mean? I don't like the sound of it.

Vote: Debbie until she comes up with an explanation for that strange comment.

Hehehe OM. Shall we declare a truce?

Quoted from ConLao:

Why? Because I do not agree with a proposal which, in my mind, only serves the scum's best interests? What you are doing is almost worse than fishing - you are putting up a scheme which, from what I can see, would put the town at a severe disadvantage, and painting it as something in the town's best interests!

Quoted from ConLao:

So what makes you think that we might have more than one kill group (as that seems to be the point you are making here)?

Quoted from ConLao:

You cannot deny to me that, at some point, we need to take a risk and lynch someone. The only question is when this is. I believe that, precisely because of the potential sanity issues we have in this game, we need to try to nail down who we can believe and who we cannot. You are still yet to say how we are going to achieve this with two sets of results if we cannot get there with only one.

I like the way you are using the word scummy about me as much as possible - very subtle .

A game of this size would suggest 2 groups as a minimum.

As for how two sets of results help - perhaps you should read the link I provided. In it Jeep describes Dethy - and how that works for a 5-player game... that is the basic principle.

Say we have 4 cops of various sanities. They all reveal... and they all reveal that they investigated someone different. The lynch would then be random.
With a plan for the next nights investigations we could then compare these results (as per Jeep's post in the link I provided) to cross correlate.

It's a simple logic substitution basically. Assume player 1 is telling the truth and follow that to it's logical conclusion - and so on... Hell - you guys had the right idea by everyone investigating the person below them.

Either way you look at it, there does need to be a plan for tonight. Can you agree on that much?

*investigating the person below them [when you played Amnesia].

I agree with you in much that you say, merely on when we should use our first lynch. I just think it's best to sort out the sanity issue early on.

I read the link which you provided. I think it's only useful to a certain degree as we don't know the setup of the game. I also don't see anything about it being necessary for there to be a no-lynch on the first day. Perhaps I'm just missing something - please set out how you would have the game develop in simple terms so that even I can understand.

Quote:

The Conster is mad at me

The Conster is also assuming this game is full of cops, which I don't beleive it is

OK... The game should continue with each player giving their choices and eliminating the possibilities for that player (eg someone gets a guilty and an innocent then they can't be paranoid or naive). It's very difficult for scum to keep track of all the results and to watch carefully.
However - as you say, not knowing the setup severly inhibits us. That as why the town must take charge of this situation.
The greatest enemy against the town at the moment is lack of information and I would suggest not killing anyone til we have more info.

However, there is one other method I can think of... and it's thanks to Shelper - and it let's you get your day one lynch too. (Shelper suggested this idea in mafia chat just the other night).

EVERYONE pretends they are a cop with a hypothetical
investigation. Then, in turn, everyone says what their investigation was and what the result was.

Obviously the real cops are amongst the group - so they give their actual investigation and actual result. It is essential that these cops don't lie as one of the things to look for in this game is balance.
That way, if we do lynch a cop, at least we got his investigation results before he was gone. Also, the scum don't know specifically who the cops are because everyone gave a result.