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Topic Subject: USA air is powerful if used right.
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posted 10-06-03 01:19 PM EDT (US)   
Well I have been playing this game for about 2 1/2 weeks now so I think I have a good grasp of most of the tactics and strategies. I by no means consider myself an expert or anything specifically since I play exclusively USA and have very little experience with German or UK build orders. However I do consider myself an excellent source of information on US air power. I had some real good games this weekend and learned some more that I would like to share.

The key to victory for the USA may be combined arms as stated by many people but the problem is that the USA is best when massed. You cannot get real good results with a few of these and a few of those unless the enemy does the same thing. The USA does not have any killer ground units (without special ability use which starts at 0) and has a poor choice for a ground detection unit. Vs the early rush I am still at a loss on how to handle either Germany or the UK. I have gone for the early engineer and tried placing mines but I always seem to guess wrong and waste money protecting my start site with mines. Vs a good hard push by German MG and 88mm gun combo almost all the US early units can easily be countered, except maybe the Ranger. The problem with the Ranger is that in small skirmishes in the beginning of the game most people are microing all their combat units and will notice the tell tale radio waves emitting from the Ranger unit and just move out of the blast area. I still am not sure how best to counter the early attack, not sure that you can call a German MG 88mm attack a rush.

Ways that I have beaten off the early attack.

1. Helpful UK teammate. Vs those pesky commandos a scan or 2 is all that is needed the workers can kill them off.
2. Luck. The attacker just went after the wrong targets and let me run my civ's around while they chased them. Got air out and hunted them down.
3. Not a rush. After a certain time it is no longer a rush and I have enough units out to take care of the early units. UK commando or German MG with little to no AA support.
4. Walls. They are cheap and if you have choke points this will stop most early units with ease. Especially on Empire Builder mode. I think this may be the best defense for the USA early in the game though I hear commandos can run through the woods. Too bad the USA has such lousy recon.

In general I am still working on the USA anti rush strategy.

How to use US air effectively.

Here are some tips on using US air power effectively. Note that many people will call you noob or tell you how best to use your air power but remember it is up to you.

1. Lots of fighters. I usually go for 20 fighters before expanding to bombers. Unless the enemy knows you are going heavy fighters they will be in for a big surprise. Even then most people tend to underestimate the ability of fighters to take out AA.

2. Get the University and the econ (forget the name) upgrade that cuts your building costs in half. This will allow you to make more air fields. and you need 4 - 6 to be really effective. I generally go for this once I have 6 - 8 fighters in my first airfield since the building costs 150 wood and the upgrade costs 300 gold and 300 wood.

3. You never have enough civ's on gold or wood. Expand before you need the resources and don't let your resources go to the enemy, fight for them.

4. Initially I go with 3 civ's on food and only use food for more civ's. Lately I have been adding a few more so I can support more than one TC, this helps allot but don't do it too early as you lose 6 civ's. A few Rangers for recon are handy also.

5. Upgraded health on fighters makes them last longer while flying through the heavy AA you are bound to run into.

6. Upgraded attack on bombers makes them very deadly.

7. Once you get the third air field up start making bombers. They are expensive so you need a really good econ going. If your really desperate you can give them the Mass production upgrade to get them out faster but the attack upgrade makes them really worth the money.

8. Never let an air field fill up. You should be producing from all your air fields at the same time, if one fills up move some planes.

9. Do not attack move with planes unless you are confident in you superiority. Your planes will chase targets and cause them to go in the wrong direction and break your force into small groups. Bombers will drop their bombs before they get to the target, and that is not a good thing.

10. Use a good mixture of fighters and bombers vs strong AA sites or unit masses. Fly over with the fighters to get the distraction and hit them hard with the bombers.

11. B-29's (nuke planes) work great with the speed upgrade. It allows the unit to fly past light AA cover with ease and possibly make it back.

12. Do not order your planes to land in the air field when there is still the threat of enemy air. Instead order them to fly back near the air field. If you run into enemy air and have already ordered them to land they will ignore any future orders and continue on with no ability to respond to threats.

13. Recon, recon, recon. Nothing is worse than flying over a hill and seeing 15 AA guns that you did not know where there. Send the sacrificial lamb if you must but the best way to recon is with Rangers. Get a few out and place them where they can watch the map.

14. Do not go straight from your air field to the enemy base. Start by rallying your air units in a safe central location. This will get them massed instead of spread out from the take off delay.

15. Some people think that your air units should be either attacking or guarding. It is tough balancing act to try and do this and there are some disadvantages to it but keep working on it and see what you think.

16. It is cheaper to build a C-47 (with Mass production upgrade) and air drop two tanks or a tank and a canon then it is to build them separately. You also need no food for the tanks this way. You can drop them in your base if that is where you want them, it is cheaper is the point.

17. Look for ways around heavy AA cover. With a large formation it may not be possible but you might be able to slip a B-29 in and that is always nice.

18. Try to head back to the air field before you run out of fuel so that you can control your return trip.

Well that is about all I have for now. Any comments?

Replies:
posted 10-06-03 05:59 PM EDT (US)     1 / 34  
I like using air power as well, if for no other reason is that it has such a different feel from AOM and Warcraft. I appreciate your insights and advice on how to use it correctly, but something is bugging me about the whole deal. From what I see of the stats, the American AirForce units have the worst stats and aren't the cheapest unit, so why then should the US have the dominant air force in the game?

Sure, US economy should allow you to mass them, but how is that different than any other unit? For anything your doing with the US airforce, you could do with UK or germans for cheaper and do it better, couldn't you?

The pat response is, well, you need to go with balanced armies. Well, doesn't everyone else? And if not, then the US is clearly at a disadvantage.

If there is something unique to being able to control the air with massed units as oppossed to ground forces, then I could see the advantage that big econ+expensive units+crappy stats beats out weak econ+cheap unit+good stats on your average air unit. But if not, then the US is at a disadvantage in the air. If your having sucess with it it may mean you'd be having more success with either other nation.

Dunno, I want to know why American Air power is supposed to be best?!?

posted 10-06-03 06:34 PM EDT (US)     2 / 34  
I think the reason is that the USA has the most options.

Germany has a great fighter but lousy bombers.

UK has a good fighter and a good bomber but that is all. Oops they also have the paradrop plane.

US has a lousy fighter (with no upgrades good with HP upgrade) and a great (expensive) bomber and a Great nuke plane and a great transport plane. They also have the cheapest buildings later in the game which allows them to spam air fields.

The real problem comes when you run into huge amounts of AA guns and that is where the USA bomber excels. They can take the punishment to get in there and destroy the guns.

I think I may try going heavy air with the other nations just to see if what I had said in my previous post turns out to be true, it was all paper work and no real experience.

Note that other nations do not need to go heavy air due to the fact that they can counter air with ground units. The USA just cannot do this and my experiences lead me to say that the US should go heavy air to overcome the problem and use ground as more of a support role. Kind of the opposite of other nations.

[This message has been edited by Raging Idiot (edited 10-06-2003 @ 08:17 PM).]

posted 10-06-03 08:43 PM EDT (US)     3 / 34  
I've been useing the USA alot lately, and I feel that if they survuve the early rush they will probably win. Their fighters are very easy to mass because of the USA's exellent economy and the speed the peasants pop out of the town centers, and the combination of rangers, shermans, bombers and fighters is extreemly potent. I always give the speed upgrade to my ranger, the mass production upgrade to the B29, the attack upgrade to the B17, and the hitpoints upgrade to the P51.

About the other civ's being better at massing air, I'd say its close. The germans have the best AA guns and have the best fighters, and as long as they put mass production on their fighters, they can mass them even better then the USA, the only problem is rangers. The germans always have ther AA in big clusters and they tend to not move them, even when they see the radio waves, this means that rangers will be able to air strike them with ease, and since the sargeant is so frail, and so expensive, you rarely see them, and if you do, just kill them quickly with your shermans or fighters. The UK I feel has better air then the USA, their fighters are cheaper and much better, thier bomber do more damage per run, over a bigger area, so if theres massed AA and you probably wont get a second pass, I would rather have a Lancaster bomber then a B17. The UK also hase exellent detection, so rangers are not nearly as usefull as they are against germany and the USA, and the amphibius tank owns.


"Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson
posted 10-06-03 08:53 PM EDT (US)     4 / 34  
Raging Idiot, do you have any experience with the US wonder late game? Do you ever get to the point where you use the mass paratroopers? Also, since I missed it, where do the planes take off from once you apply the US wonder ability? Do the 5 planes come straight out of the wonder? All I remember is that after I clicked the button, airplanes were flying, but I missed where they were launched from....

~Lysimachus - Former HG Angel for Rise & Fall Heaven || Was RaFH Game Info Admin || Proud Member of HG since 1998
posted 10-06-03 09:42 PM EDT (US)     5 / 34  
all I can say is that; if your USA in say a 3v3; and right across from you sits a German civ whose scout has found you...

your in trouble.

big trouble.

posted 10-06-03 09:43 PM EDT (US)     6 / 34  
While we're asking questions, I have a few simply ones since I can't find anything that resembles documentation.

-How do you change the landing base for your planes, I tried to do it manually but they didn't wanna listen.

-How do you control all your planes once they are up, can you hotkey groups?

-Is mass production on the fighter a reasonable option? Its where I'm dumping a majority of my economy, so why not cut the cost on that unit in particular?

posted 10-06-03 09:43 PM EDT (US)     7 / 34  
I almost never get around to building the wonder but I believe you are right. I think the planes originate from the wonder.
posted 10-06-03 10:12 PM EDT (US)     8 / 34  
The planes dont exactly come out of the wonder. They come from outside the map from where the wonder was placed.
posted 10-06-03 10:36 PM EDT (US)     9 / 34  

Quoted from Thegl:

While we're asking questions, I have a few simply ones since I can't find anything that resembles documentation.

-How do you change the landing base for your planes, I tried to do it manually but they didn't wanna listen.

All I do is get them in the air and click on another air field.

Quoted from Thegl:

-How do you control all your planes once they are up, can you hotkey groups?

Shift F will select all fighters that are ready. Not going home for refueling or damaged and in the hanger.

Shift B - Bombers Shift N = B-29's and Shift P = C-47's

As far as assigning them to a ctrl group I am not sure. if you had them assigned and some where ready and others where repairing and you launch then you may have some run out of fuel and others heading to the target. It can get real tricky trying to manage that with a large air force.

What I would love to see is a player setable hot key that selected a preset number. Such as 10 of this or 5 of that. With a few of those types of hot keys you could manage your forces much more precisley.

Quoted from Thegl:

-Is mass production on the fighter a reasonable option? Its where I'm dumping a majority of my economy, so why not cut the cost on that unit in particular?

Personal decision. I dont like it as they are not all that expensive and the HP increase seems to really add too their survivability. It does make them very cheap though.

posted 10-06-03 10:40 PM EDT (US)     10 / 34  

Quoted from Democritus:

all I can say is that; if your USA in say a 3v3; and right across from you sits a German civ whose scout has found you...
your in trouble.

big trouble.

Agreed, that is why I am getting good at placing early walls. Also that is why I prefer Empire Builder.

posted 10-07-03 00:41 AM EDT (US)     11 / 34  
Why isn't carriers and hellcats mentioned?

-Warspite-
posted 10-07-03 02:20 AM EDT (US)     12 / 34  

Quoted from Warspite2:

Why isn't carriers and hellcats mentioned?

Mostly because I have been playing land maps but that is a good point.

posted 10-07-03 09:15 AM EDT (US)     13 / 34  
What are the differences between hellcats and regular fighters in terms of strength? Are hellcats better? Are they more expensive? Are they worse and not worth it? or ar they nice and cheap?

~Lysimachus - Former HG Angel for Rise & Fall Heaven || Was RaFH Game Info Admin || Proud Member of HG since 1998
posted 10-07-03 10:05 AM EDT (US)     14 / 34  
one way that a USA player can compete with german MG's early is mass GI's. About 4 of them will beat 1 MG, so if you go 2 rax early you can get plenty out in time to fight off the Mg's while you get air. You can build about 2-3 GI in the time it takes to build 1 mg.

^^ www.pro-ladder.com msg me if you want to set up your own league.
posted 10-07-03 10:49 AM EDT (US)     15 / 34  

Quoted from biffy_boy:

one way that a USA player can compete with german MG's early is mass GI's. About 4 of them will beat 1 MG, so if you go 2 rax early you can get plenty out in time to fight off the Mg's while you get air. You can build about 2-3 GI in the time it takes to build 1 mg

Hmmmmmm that would be interesting to test. The problem there is that you are getting units that cost food and gold. This will slow down your civ production and your plane production. It is worth experimenting with though. Not to mention the second rax which costs another 150 wood.

Quoted from Lysimachus:

What are the differences between hellcats and regular fighters in terms of strength? Are hellcats better? Are they more expensive? Are they worse and not worth it? or ar they nice and cheap?

If I remember correctly they are cheaper but have the same stats, not sure about HP's though. You must make a dock and purchase an aircraft carrier in order to build them.

posted 10-07-03 07:06 PM EDT (US)     16 / 34  
Slightly off topic, but is there a way to instantly recall your air force like there is in RON? Now I know they are to seperate games, the only reason for comparrison is it is a nice feature.

"Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get." Forrest Gump's mama
posted 10-08-03 09:49 AM EDT (US)     17 / 34  
Well, tried some build orders to get out that first fighter, currently the best I can consistently do is get the first one in the air around 6:35-6:45. Sadly, I can have one in the air for germany and UK faster than that. Maybe I'll work some more on build orders, would be nice to know how effective the economic techs are though.

I think a huge part of US air might is thier carriers. Those little jimmy's only cost 100 food/100 gold and nearly as good as the main fighter. And costing food seems nice too. With mass production they crank out at 75/75, dirt cheap. Problem is you need to hold the water in order to utilize them, although I don't think its necessary for water to be particularly close to the enemy.

IMO, the german fighter is leaps and bounds above the other two civs, which is unfortunate considering how OP thier land choices are. German fighter is faster, much higher attack, much longer range, for slightly higher cost. Just stupid of the designers IMO.

posted 10-08-03 11:56 AM EDT (US)     18 / 34  
what is your build order to get them out in that time? I cannot seem to break 7:00 min on Action, very fast.
posted 10-08-03 12:31 PM EDT (US)     19 / 34  

Quote:

I cannot seem to break 7:00 min on Action, very fast


A difference in 25-30 seconds could easily be acounted for since you're playing on very fast. I'm a geezer so I play on normal speed.

Only thing I can think of out of normal build order is first 3 vills on wood, then I get forestry tech as soon as the first settlement is up. As soon as I have 300 wood I grab 5 guys to build the airport. If it looks like I'll be short on wood or gold for first plane I pull villies off the ariport build and assign them to wood/gold as needed so that airport is done same time as i'm at proper resources for first plane.

posted 10-08-03 01:24 PM EDT (US)     20 / 34  
Hmmmm I guess I will try my same build on standard and see how that works out.
posted 10-08-03 05:29 PM EDT (US)     21 / 34  
biffy_boy says:

Quote:

one way that a USA player can compete with german MG's early is mass GI's. About 4 of them will beat 1 MG, so if you go 2 rax early you can get plenty out in time to fight off the Mg's while you get air. You can build about 2-3 GI in the time it takes to build 1 mg.

Raging Idiot replies:

Quote:

Hmmmmmm that would be interesting to test. The problem there is that you are getting units that cost food and gold. This will slow down your civ production and your plane production. It is worth experimenting with though. Not to mention the second rax which costs another 150 wood.

And I say…

Well you see, when it comes to deciding on a particular strategy Raging Idiot, there will always be some sacrifices. If you are going to attempt the GI strategy, you might as well say good bye to any early air power. If you are going land, go all the way land…at least for the first 1/3rd of the game. Then, eventually when you feel secure, use air as “cleanup”.

But I really do like biffy_boy’s strategy. It sounds like a strategy worth experimenting with. Listen, USA is really not that weak on land if you think about it. I’ve won many games via land with USA so far.


~Lysimachus - Former HG Angel for Rise & Fall Heaven || Was RaFH Game Info Admin || Proud Member of HG since 1998
posted 10-08-03 07:21 PM EDT (US)     22 / 34  

Quoted from Lysimachus:

Well you see, when it comes to deciding on a particular strategy Raging Idiot, there will always be some sacrifices. If you are going to attempt the GI strategy, you might as well say good bye to any early air power. If you are going land, go all the way land…at least for the first 1/3rd of the game. Then, eventually when you feel secure, use air as “cleanup”.

But I really do like biffy_boy’s strategy. It sounds like a strategy worth experimenting with. Listen, USA is really not that weak on land if you think about it. I’ve won many games via land with USA so far.

Agreed, the air strat goes out the door as soon as you start making any significant amount of ground forces.

As too the USA not being weak on land I must disagree. The USA is totally vulnerable to air units, next to no defense at all. Now a good argument might be that I am placing too much emphasis on the USA's lack of good mobile AA units but that is a different topic, already made by the way.

In the end it comes down to the fact that you must decide.

Heavy air is playing to the USA's strong side and can be very powerful.

Heavy ground is playing to the USA's weak side but perhaps with masses of units you may be able to use attrition to kill the enemy. Just pray they do not get much air.

A mixed medium seems to always end in a loss as you just do not have enough fire power to destroy the enemy fast enough and you do not have enough units to survive the longer battles that ensue.

In the end we know that there are imbalances in the game that are addressed by the release so all this will be mute once the game hits the shelves.

posted 10-08-03 09:32 PM EDT (US)     23 / 34  
I use all of the USA's units except for the AT guns, because rangers and bombers kill tanks much better then AT guns. I build a mixture of engineers, GI's/MG's and shermans as a main strike force, and rangers as a scouting/ demotlitons force. One stratagy I like is sending in three of four engineers surrounded by five to ten GI's, and make a break for their airport/TC, the TC will hurt their peasant production and stealing their airport steals all the planes inside it, so not only does this cripple their air force, it strengthens yours!
The extra range on the P51 is actually a good bomus, because it means that in masses, other planes explode before they even get off a shot, because the P51 outranges it.

"Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson
posted 10-08-03 11:02 PM EDT (US)     24 / 34  

Quoted from Joel the Mighty:

Do you play online? If you do what are the game settings?

[This message has been edited by Raging Idiot (edited 10-08-2003 @ 11:03 PM).]

posted 10-09-03 01:53 PM EDT (US)     25 / 34  
Excellent thread.
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