Very nice strats Carch. Thanks! Might you have some replays that demonstrate the feasibility of such strats?

But then isn't raiding their territory sort of like rushing in a way? It's not a full-force rush of the city, instead, it's a rush of their econ producers!

[This message has been edited by AgentPsycho (edited 08-01-2003 @ 07:37 PM).]

Raiding and rushing are distinct to me. Rushing, to me, is dedicating all your resources to military production in an all-out effort to utterly crush the enemy before they have a chance to defend themselves. Raiding, on the other hand, is a relatively inexpensive tactic that can wreak havoc on an enemy economy while costing the raider very little.

I'm sure I have replays demonstrating most of these tactics either being used by or against me... but it'd be quite a chore to dig them up. Let's see what I can remember from games already up on my site ...

I've only really been up against three people who used multiple forces effectively against me: one was none other than Brian Reynolds who defended my invasion while attacking me on another front.
(http://www.clanplaid.net/~carch/fun/filemgmt/singlefile.php?lid=635)

I suspect there's some good naval raiding action in this game where I teamed with a stranger against TGE and CrownOfThorns on the Mediterranean map. TGE will want me to add this disclaimer: he had only played a few multiplayer matches before this game!
(http://www.clanplaid.net/~carch/fun/filemgmt/singlefile.php?lid=638)

I do have some good raiding and harassing games somewhere in my archives, as I've taken to doing that whenever I get a chance in recent weeks.

Wish I could just dump my whole replay directory up somewhere (of course, they'd need to be auto-commented and such ... )

[This message has been edited by Carch (edited 08-01-2003 @ 08:02 PM).]

Thank you for starting a new thread on this. I felt bad that the other thread was hijacked.

So overall 3 thing that are effective against a boom:
Rush
Raid
Boom (If you manage your military very well)

There is no successful rushing currently in the game by your definition except in team games. Well, maybe classical rushing in which the boomer doesn't build an ounce of military power, but that's how it should be. There is early harassment and resource denial through military units. Rushes can be stopped, but you do have to build an actual barracks and military units to stop them. If there were mechanics in place where you didn't have to, ancient would be a very boring 5min+ mandatory age.

As you mentioned, raiding is relatively inexpensive. Most decent boomers would get a raiding force both for raiding and if the need arises to have an infrastructure to start to defend or attack. Don't complain that the boomer would no longer be booming if he has a raiding force since this does fit your definition of minimal defense. A boomer doesn't have to not be agressive.

Most of your raiding tactics are what good boomers would use. Border pushing is inherently tied to economic might except in the case of castles or certain civs.

[This message has been edited by TerminotaurII (edited 08-02-2003 @ 09:27 AM).]

You're missing the point, Term.

The point of the post is that rushing is not the only way to stop a boomer. All those things I listed are non-rush ways to stop a boomer, not non-boom ways to stop a boomer.

great post carch

Your post boils down to this:

Attack/Rush him exploiting military superiority
Raid him while getting an army or booming

It's not really that much insight and most good boomers get some insurance to stop from being raided.

Does your definition of rushing mean anytime you shift gears to fullout military production when the enemy has little military? Most consider it simply foregoing a regular economic build in favor of getting a very early military to stop the opponent from doing whatever.

People seem to mix "rushing" with raiding/attacking, rushing is when you start the game with the sole intent that you're going to go straight for military power hopefully before they have any.

A good example is C&C Generals; USA- Can have rangers with Flashbang in a GLA base prior to the 40 second mark. GLA- Pre-patch tunnel rushing, sending workers early to build tons of tunnels. China- Gatt/Flame tank rush, game can be assured victory prior to the 2 minute mark.

Humm, I read that other thread.

No rushing does make a game one dimensional. You pretty much have a mandatory 5 min boom buildorder with no scouting of the enemy since you pretty much know what he's going to have to do. Not having decent counters to a rush also makes a game one dimensional since both players would have to do the same build to rush with little variation at the start.

None of these apply in the Ancient age. You will basically be doing the same thing for the first few minutes every game if you are booming and doing one of those strategies.

In the first age you will have to boom you economy and set it up for whatever you are going to do, and there won't be an option to set up early defenses or an early attack, since the person who booms the first few minutes will be way ahead.

Anyway, in all those strats you are basically booming yourself, which means it is one dimensional. With no rush, everyone booms. Where's the variety?

Wow, I just don't understand how you guys see things so polarized.

If you're going to continue insisting there's no alternative to rushing after I posted a half dozen alternatives, I don't have anything more to say.

I don't want to get into a debate about semantics, and I don't appreciate being insulted, either, Term. Let me know when you have something original to contribute.

[This message has been edited by Carch (edited 08-03-2003 @ 01:59 AM).]

I'm simply going to say if everything was so easily predictable every game would end in a stalemate.

Oh, and it'd be pretty hard for anything to be one dimensional, as it couldn't really even be a line.

In any well designed RTS you can defend against a rush as long as your military is at least half as large as the enemies. You can definitely do this in RoN. Obviously you should be able to gain a sizable research advantage with a smaller military but if you have nothing and get hit by a large army then you got what you desrved.

Like any other strategy booming is a gamble. You can hedge your bets by buliding a little military, and you can make it less risky with a lot of scouting, but it's all about manipulating your enemy to give yourself an advantage. If your opponent thinks you have strong defenses, you probably won't get rushed. If your opponent thinks your army is bigger than it is (decoys) or has no idea (all garrisoned), they're less likely to attack.

Remember your Sun Tzu:

Quoted from "The Art of War I. Laying Plans (18-24)":

Overall, I'd have to agree with the rock paper scissors scenario painted by Meteora.

However, it's not the be all and end all. *Flexibility* will grant more victories. It can not be guaranteed in every game that a rusher will beat a boomer, nor a boomer always beat a turtle. This is where Carch's counters come into play. They are flexible deviations to a set strategy piece.

What if both (in a 1v1) players are rushing. Reasoning will dictate this game must end in a tie, but it won't...
The player who is most ably to react to the oncoming strategy has a better chance to succeed. Perhaps he will build quick defensive structures that the opponent will throw his lifeless masses against, or perhaps his opponent will tread a clear path around the set defenses.

I don't see Carch's proposals an antithesis to the commonly held tenants of RTS, but an astute evolution to this supposedly one-dimensional game.

Is there a way I can watch this file without haveing RON? I'll be buying it soon or I'll buy Empires: Dotmw.(I'll buy ron first then empires most likely) Edit: Nevermind I found it. Edit2: or not... All I get is the picture.

[This message has been edited by lol76 (edited 08-04-2003 @ 03:34 PM).]

Gotta buy the full retail game to watch replays!

Why not just say: "Offencive playing style is the best counter to a boom..."
That basically covers everything carsh said.

"Overall, I'd have to agree with the rock paper scissors scenario painted by Meteora."

cough*raven made the rock paper sissors scenario*cough

Terrific trips. Thanks. I especially like the idea of harassing the fishing fleet with a few ships on 'raid' and 'autoexplore' and running some cav thru his territory just to attract attention.

I'll add that what I do on land maps with some water is to send a tiny raiding party to his capital to mosquito bite him there. As soon as I make a few whacks at the capital, doing no damage, I withdraw to the water again.

This seems to work very well with the AI & keeps the AI's forces running from place to place while I boom past him.

Quoted from raven:

Ok ok, I'll give the rock paper *sissors* scen to raven, but really, the rock paper scissors scen has been around since pokemon if not earlier! Heck, I remember doing it in the 70s but would have never imagined it would prep me for mastery of RTS games!