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Topic Subject: mongols
posted 03-26-04 06:13 PM EDT (US)   
Lately I've been mopping up everyone with Mongols (gamespy nick: simscitizen). I haven't had anyone stop me for a while when using this civ. Aside from the usual maya-lameness, I don't see too many ways to stop them...

Most people do a fast raid with mongols (sci-mil1-classical-mil2-two stables) which is absolutely devastating if you don't prepare for it. But good players prepare for this kind of rush by dropping a tower or two if they scout a mongol enemy.

So instead, I usually don't bother with the fast raid (unless I scout that my enemy won't be prepared for it). Instead, I usually go for two cities with sci2/com2/mil1 and head to classical, and start raiding a bit later with +150 econ cap. This strat is a lot less fragile tha the fast raid. It also kills your opponent if he tries to go for three cities early (he can't afford civ2 AND get to classical in time to counter your HAs with light horses), and takes advantage of the Mongol food bonus (you can easily get to +150 food with just two cities, but your opponent needs 3 cities or good rares to do the same). Usually this raid can mess up your opponent well enough to put you ahead economically, esp. if your opponent put up early towers. If your raid is half successful, it'll also slow down any classical or medieval attack just enough so you can get into gunpowder before launching a full-fledged attack.

From there, I usually drop mines, rax, unis, etc. and prepare for a strong gunpowder attack. I queue up as many HCs as possible and HIs while trying to shoot for +200 in the 8:00-9:00 mark. This is rather easy to do as long as you don't build too many scholars because of the food bonus. With 3 cities and a rare or two, you can easily hit +200 without any granaries. Just make sure to take a vill off to build a lumber camp while you get sci3, so you can get to +200 wood right after getting com3.

By the time I hit gunpowder (around 14:00? 15:00? Somewhere around there, I think--I don't keep track), I usually have a decent sized army ready to attack (perhaps 12-20 infantry, 8 or 9 HCs, 3 or 4 siege and a supply wagon, plus 12-15+ free nomads, depending on). The free nomads you get from building 4 or 5 stables really seal the deal. First of all, it costs almost nothing to get them--just build the stables with mil3 researched. But it's even better because it only takes 100 wood 100 wealth to upgrade them to the gunpowder-armed Horde unit. It's _really_ hard to deal with this many horde so early, because they eat almost everything except archers (kills all infantry, decent against HCs, no one builds enough LCs to counter that many horde, etc.) And archers are slow as hell and suck in general anyway--just run around them and hit them with your HCs, watch all their wealth die.

The best part is once you think you've won the battle, you can run all your free horde (and perhaps an HC or two) into town and shoot up all the civilians. It's really too easy to do this because they shoot while moving and have enough hit points to take a few tc and tower arrows by then. Afterwards, you're free to run them straight into his ally's town or return them back to the front.

So I guess that wasn't all that clear--I'm on break and am too lazy to organize my thoughts. Let my try to sum up my points:

- Mongols have flexibility early on because of the threat of early raiding. If your opponent drops towers or prepares some other raid defense, you can delay your raid and press your resulting economic advantage. Otherwise, if he doesn't get to classical at around the same time as you, his econ is dead.

- If you do a delayed raid, a +100 raid/rush is the next possible strong attack. It's on O4B's site somewhere. Basically, raid with HAs, follow up with HIs to take towns. The fact that you don't need many farms to reach +100 helps a _lot_ for this attack.

- +150 is possible, but I think Mongols are stronger in gp. If you wait until +200 and gp, you can build a lot more HCs from the cheap horse bonus.

- If you want to wait more, Mongols can do an extremely strong +200 attack because of the cheap and free horde. 15-20 horde are fast and useful both on the front and for raiding. On the front, horde own infantry and their speed allows you to kill other units using flanking (while your HCs and LI/HI are killing things). While raiding, it's almost impossible to counter a large amount of free horde running through your town. They also can shut down your opponent's ally--just do a pass through the opponent's ally's town.

Last note: Don't build too many scholars. I see a lot of experts building a gazillion scholars early on. I don't get this. Scholars suck early on. They earn +5 knowledge each and cost like 40-60+ wealth. This is a terrible deal (for comparison, most civilians early on cost 25-50 food and produce +10 resources each, and food is much easier to gather than wealth early on). A knowledge rare, or even a university (instant +25 knowledge, produces +10 knowledge intrinsically) is a much better deal. I try not to build too many scholars for a +200 (i.e. 14-16, literacy and printing press as soon as feasible) and use the rest of the wealth for more HCs.

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 03-26-2004 @ 06:18 PM).]

Replies:
posted 03-27-04 01:32 AM EDT (US)     1 / 10  
There are several nations that can match your 150 eco and be in classical.

Bantu get a free city so its no problem for them, to have a maxed out eco very early and still make it to classical.

Egypt only needs 2 cities to max their economy out so they will advance to classical early too.

Chinese might be with you depending on several factors.

Koreans can also have 3 cities and make it to classical quickly since they dont spend much on citizens.

Nubians can also be an economic power in team games.

And even the nations that can't keep up economically if they just age, LH aren't that expensive.

posted 03-27-04 08:20 AM EDT (US)     2 / 10  
True. Obviously the food bonus isn't THAT big, but it's nice (i.e. lets you get your second city up with +70 food with only 1 farm, about equivalent to Jap farm bonus). But if you're dropping towers early in anticipation of a fast raid, you'll be behind. And if I scout you doing a straight boom, I'll press classical immediately and raid you, preventing the 150 in classical. Esp. true if your 150 is based on merchants (Nubians, Chinese).

Thing is, light horses might be cheap, but the HAs are _free_. You also have the ability to delay your raid further and add HCs while he's building LCs, making it harder to counter (drop a mine for the completetion bonus) and still attack rather early. Early on in the classical raiding game, Mongols are just ahead on units.

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 03-27-2004 @ 08:25 AM).]

posted 03-27-04 11:47 AM EDT (US)     3 / 10  
Spanish could also easily beat your Mongol econ. Go fast Com2 and you'll have your 150 in 4 minutes and classical in around 4:30.
posted 03-27-04 12:33 PM EDT (US)     4 / 10  
Well, duh. Maya and Spanish are like entering a cheat. I try not to pick them unless others do the same...

Besides, my point wasn't that Mongols have the best 150 econ. It's obvious to any idiot that any civ can do a rather fast 150 if you play it correctly. I was just saying that you'll get a good boost because people these days always seem to prepare for the Mongol raid. As a result, when you 150 when others prepare, you'll be ahead. And if you see him trying to push the third city or going straight econ, you can stop at 100 and raid with quick hcavs/ha. You'll have these 2 hcavs + 4 ha before he can build too many light horses, esp. if he tries to go 150. Just drop one or two mines.

Just because x, y, and z civ can get a good 150 doesn't mean they're good. Especially if that's the _only_ thing they can do. That makes them too predictable (i.e. British boom to 125, everyone knows that they will do it, and that's the only thing they can do). My argument is that as a Mongol you simply have more _options_ because of the threat of the raid. You are much more unpredictable and you can put people on the defensive easily. You always have the 70/100 raid in your pocket to make people waste res on defenses, you can stop at 150, or you can go 200 and spam stables for free gunpowder HAs. They're like free arquebusiers, except they're not half bad against hcav, they can run/raid, and they cost only 200 resources to upgrade instead of 600-800 (if you built 10 LIs).

In short, by picking Mongols you get the big advantage of putting people on the defensive and making them constantly worry about when you'll raid/attack. Most of the time people say Mongols are too predictable, that everyone knows the fast +70 raid at 3-4 mins is coming; I say that they're not and they're extremely good for making your opponent waste resources on needless raid defenses and instead concentrating on a powerful +200 with stable spamming.

Anyway, I think I'll stop posting too much on this. I've had some free time because of spring break. Unfortunately, it's ending now, so back for another brutal qtr at college...

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 03-27-2004 @ 12:50 PM).]

posted 03-27-04 06:25 PM EDT (US)     5 / 10  
You're right. People see Mongols and think they are going to be raided. Thats what Mongol Rush/Raid is about. Using the psychology to force cav defense.
posted 04-01-04 11:52 PM EDT (US)     6 / 10  
But if there are truly no good ways to counter the Mongols (despite "the raid/rush deception" school of thought), then they have to be nerfed...

From reading descriptions, HAs are effective against HIs.

But if that's true, and LH are questionable for the task, what can we do?

More interestingly, I would wonder if Russia has an advantage against the Mongols... does: "Russian Winter + Large Borders + Cavalry vs. Siege Bonus + Don Cossack" make much difference? I wonder...

posted 04-02-04 12:31 PM EDT (US)     7 / 10  
I played some guy using the name "Nut" the other night and we both went random. He drew Mongol, I got Chinese. I scouted for a few seconds for nearby ruins, then went straight over to see what I would be dealing with. At around 2:30 to 3:00 he already had a few HA and killed my probing scout. I use militia and micro to stop most early attacks and tried to use them to stop his raid. LC would have served me better, but I was able to fend him off eventually. Not without losses, however, as his micro was very good and he kept my devolopment stifled enough to keep an age ahead of me the rest of the game. I was still able to stop a follow up attack of a load of HI and archers and even counter siege one of his cities, but in the end, I couldn't hold him. The raid had hurt me too much. I love seeing this sort of action though, because it keeps players honest (instead of blindly booming) and offers for lots of early game excitement and micro opportunities. Friends of mine from a game much faster than this (Impossible Creatures) complain that RON is too slow, not enough fast-paced early game action, but I just tell them they aren't playing the right people in the right games. Even though I find it a challenge to stop the Mongol raid at times, I say "Long Live the Mongols!" and early attacks in general, really. The only time I get pissy (and believe me, I get pissy and let them know it), is when a player purposely goes Mayan or Spanish when they clearly see I'm going Random. It ticks me off that players know these races are getting the nerf stick for good reason, but still use these races to tilt the balance in their favor. Now, that's crap.
posted 04-02-04 12:40 PM EDT (US)     8 / 10  
you should have seen the mongol rush before 1.2. You didn't have to research mil2 in order to get 3 (three!) HA by building a stables. You could hit the enemy with 6 HA at like 5 minutes, it was pretty insane.

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posted 04-03-04 05:22 PM EDT (US)     9 / 10  
Do the Mongols also prevent you from building Stables, razing it, and rebuilding?
posted 04-06-04 03:11 PM EDT (US)     10 / 10  
You can raze and rebuild but you don't get the feebies again
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