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Topic Subject: Interesting news: Etruscans, their origins and Herodotus vindicated
posted 18 June 2007 10:58 EDT (US)   
http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,2105426,00.html

The enigma of Italy's ancient Etruscans is finally unravelled


Genetic research DNA tests on their Italian descendants show the 'tuscii' came from Turkey

John Hooper in Rome
Monday June 18, 2007
The Guardian

The Bride and the Bridegroom, one of the great Etruscan works of art
Ancient wonders ... The Etruscans created great works of art including the Bride and Bridegroom, or the Married Couple.

They gave us the word "person" and invented a symbol of iron rule later adopted by the fascists. Some even argue it was they who really moulded Roman civilisation.

Yet the Etruscans, whose descendants today live in central Italy, have long been among the great enigmas of antiquity. Their language, which has never properly been deciphered, was unlike any other in classical Italy. Their origins have been hotly debated by scholars for centuries.

Genetic research made public at the weekend appears to put the matter beyond doubt, however. It shows the Etruscans came from the area which is now Turkey - and that the nearest genetic relatives of many of today's Tuscans and Umbrians are to be found, not in Italy, but around Izmir.

The European Human Genetic Conference in Nice was told on Saturday the results of a study carried out in three parts of Tuscany: the Casentino valley, and two towns, Volterra and Murlo, where important finds have been made of Etruscan remains. In each area, researchers took DNA samples from men with surnames unique to the district and whose families had lived there for at least three generations.

They then compared their Y chromosomes, which are passed from father to son, with those of other groups in Italy, the Balkans, modern-day Turkey and the Greek island of Lemnos, which linguistic evidence suggests could have links to the Etruscans.

"The DNA samples from Murlo and Volterra are much more highly correlated to those of the eastern peoples than to those of the other inhabitants of [Italy]," said Alberto Piazza of the University of Turin, who presented the research. "One particular genetic variant, found in the samples from Murlo, was shared only with people from Turkey."

This year, a similar but less conclusive study that tracked the DNA passed down from mothers to daughters, pointed to a direct genetic input from western Asia. In 2004, a team of researchers from Italy and Spain used samples taken from Etruscan burial chambers to establish that the Etruscans were more genetically akin to each other than to contemporary Italians.

The latest findings confirm what was said about the matter almost 2,500 years ago, by the Greek historian Herodotus. The first traces of Etruscan civilisation in Italy date from about 1200 BC.

About seven and a half centuries later, Herodotus wrote that after the Lydians had undergone a period of severe deprivation in western Anatolia, "their king divided the people into two groups, and made them draw lots, so that the one group should remain and the other leave the country; he himself was to be the head of those who drew the lot to remain there, and his son, whose name was Tyrrhenus, of those who departed".

It was a Roman who muddied the waters. The historian Livy, writing in the first century BC, claimed the Etruscans were from northern Europe. A few years later, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, a Greek writer living in Rome, came up with the theory that the Etruscans were, on the contrary, indigenous Italians who had always lived in Etruria.

The Lydian empire had by then long since passed into history. Its inhabitants were said by Herodotus to have been the first people to make use of gold and silver coins and the first to establish shops, rather stalls, from which to trade goods. They gave the world the saying "as rich as Croesus" - Croesus was their last king.

Herodotus's story about the drawing of the lots may or may not be true, but the genetic research indicates that some Lydians did, as he wrote, leave their native land and travel, probably via Lemnos, to Italy.

There, they were called "tuscii" in Latin. The obvious explanation for this has always been their fondness for building tower-like, walled, hilltop towns like those still to be seen scattered across Umbria and Tuscany.

But the latest conclusions may add weight to a rival, apparently more fanciful, theory that links their name to Troy, the "city of towers" and a part of the Lydian empire. The most likely date for the fall of Troy, as described by Homer, is between 1250 and 1200 BC.

The Etruscans' contribution to Roman civilisation is still debated. They provided Rome with some of its early kings, and maybe even its name.

The "fasces", the bundle of whipping rods around a double-bladed axe that became an emblem of authority for the Romans, was almost certainly of Etruscan origin.

However, not many words in Latin are thought to derive from Etruscan. An exception is "persona" from "phersu".

The Etruscans unquestionably created glorious art. Among their most celebrated works is the so-called Sarcophagus of the Bride and Bridegroom (or Married Couple), which is in a Rome museum. It shows two people with slightly tip-tilted noses and pixie-like features.

It is known the Etruscans tried to predict the future by reading the patterns of lightning. It is thought that they introduced the chariot to Italy. They almost certainly ate good meat. Tuscany is famed for its beef, particularly that from the Chiana valley, which has been celebrated since classical times.

Another recent genetic study, of "chianina" and three other Tuscan cattle strains, found they were unrelated to Italian breeds. Yet matches were found in Turkey and the Balkans, along the supposed route of some of ancient Italy's most enigmatic immigrants.

Timeline

1200BC First traces of Etruscan civilisation

700BC Etruscans borrow alphabetic writing from Greeks, and become first people in Italy to write

616-579BC Rome ruled by its first, legendary Etruscan king, Lucius Tarquinius Priscus

550BC Etruscan power at zenith. Three confederations hold Po valley and coast south of Rome, heartland of southern Tuscany, and western Umbria. Allied with Carthaginians, Etruscans trade across the Mediterranean

535BC At Alalia, off Corsica, fleet of Carthaginians and Etruscans defeat Greek fleet. But Carthaginians, not Etruscans, assert control over seas

510BC Last Etruscan king, Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, is expelled from Rome

474BC At Cumae, off Naples, Greek fleet defeats Etruscans, who start to lose grip on area south of Rome

396BC Romans capture Veii, an Etruscan settlement north of Rome; destruction of settlement marks start of long period in which Romans gradually annex towns of Etruscan heartland. By start of first century BC, all of Etruria has been absorbed by Rome republic

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Replies:
posted 18 June 2007 11:00 EDT (US)     1 / 14  
Well, well. Once again Herodotus, the much denigrated 'Father of Lies', is proved to be pretty much on the mark.

Civile! Si ergo fortibusis in ero.
Wassis inem causan dux?
Gnossis vile demsis trux!

I suggest that before badgering for a translation you take the time to read it out loud. Thankyou.
posted 18 June 2007 11:08 EDT (US)     2 / 14  
Interesting. Perhaps we might even be able to make some headway on the language, as there have been some arguments that it is not truly isolate.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
posted 18 June 2007 11:14 EDT (US)     3 / 14  
Interesting read. I wonder if they were related to or were involved in some way with the Hittites. Weren't they from a similar region in present day Turkey and Armenia? Ethnically are there any traces of the Hitties.

In war wolves are smarter than men. We Mongols learned from them how to hunt, how to encircle, even how to fight a war. There are no wolf packs where you Chinese live, so you haven't learnt how to fight a war. You can't win a war just because you have lots of land and people. No, it depends on whether you're a wolf or a sheep.

[This message has been edited by bloodswan (edited 06-18-2007 @ 11:15 AM).]

posted 18 June 2007 11:18 EDT (US)     4 / 14  
The link with Troy is quite interesting - Aeneas was said to have been contemporary with Dido of Carthage (who founded the city), and came from Troy to Italy to be one of the founders of Rome. Given the new solidity of the Etruscan's origins, and the fact that Carthage was founded around 1200 BC (being approximately 1000 years old upon it's destruction in 146 BC)... It's actually not that hard to see the Romans adopting an Etruscan legend.

Did that make sense?

1) Trojan War and Lydian migration took place circa 1200 BC.
2) Etruscans arrived in Italy and Carthage founded.
3) Romans acquire a legendary founder who was contemporary with the founder of Carthage.
4) Romans demonstrate a propensity to adopt foreign deities and legends into their own pantheon and culture.

Doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
posted 18 June 2007 11:25 EDT (US)     5 / 14  
The only problem that I have with that theory is the fact that the evidence doesn't fit there having been a Trojan War at all. But I'll fully accept a Lydian legend of such a war being taken up 'second hand' by the Romans. That makes excellent sense.

Civile! Si ergo fortibusis in ero.
Wassis inem causan dux?
Gnossis vile demsis trux!

I suggest that before badgering for a translation you take the time to read it out loud. Thankyou.
posted 18 June 2007 11:30 EDT (US)     6 / 14  
Remembering my Roman, Greek and Mycenaean history knowledge is still expanding but I remember hearing something like those Trojans who escaped ended up eventually founding Rome later on. That is an interesting link. Legend or not.

The Lydians were related to the Hittites but who exactly were they?

In war wolves are smarter than men. We Mongols learned from them how to hunt, how to encircle, even how to fight a war. There are no wolf packs where you Chinese live, so you haven't learnt how to fight a war. You can't win a war just because you have lots of land and people. No, it depends on whether you're a wolf or a sheep.

[This message has been edited by bloodswan (edited 06-18-2007 @ 11:34 AM).]

posted 18 June 2007 11:34 EDT (US)     7 / 14  
Remembering my Roman, Greek and Mycenaean history knowledge is still expanding but I remember hearing something like those Trojans who escaped ended up eventually founding Rome later on. That is an interesting link. Legend or not.
That was Aeneas and his band of merry men - escaped the downfall of Troy, had some adventures around the Mediterranean, pissed off the founder of Carthage, settled in Italy.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
posted 18 June 2007 11:37 EDT (US)     8 / 14  
Pissed her off in Carthage or before she founded it in Phoenecia?

I just found something on the Lydians, guess I'm in or some reading.

In war wolves are smarter than men. We Mongols learned from them how to hunt, how to encircle, even how to fight a war. There are no wolf packs where you Chinese live, so you haven't learnt how to fight a war. You can't win a war just because you have lots of land and people. No, it depends on whether you're a wolf or a sheep.

[This message has been edited by bloodswan (edited 06-18-2007 @ 11:38 AM).]

posted 18 June 2007 11:38 EDT (US)     9 / 14  
In Carthage, just after it was founded, iirc.

-----

Edit:
The only problem that I have with that theory is the fact that the evidence doesn't fit there having been a Trojan War at all. But I'll fully accept a Lydian legend of such a war being taken up 'second hand' by the Romans. That makes excellent sense.
Actually that's not a bad point either - the Lydians proved quite willing to adopt Greek culture and legends (Herodotus goes on for hours about how many gifts Croesus sent to Delphi, for example) so it seems not too unlikely that the Trojan War was adopted by them and used to explain their own migration in later times.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia

[This message has been edited by ArchDruid (edited 06-18-2007 @ 11:45 AM).]

posted 18 June 2007 13:49 EDT (US)     10 / 14  
The only problem that I have with that theory is the fact that the evidence doesn't fit there having been a Trojan War at all. But I'll fully accept a Lydian legend of such a war being taken up 'second hand' by the Romans. That makes excellent sense.
There is no proof of a war that lasted ten years, but there is proof that the city was besieged. Most likely not by the Greeks, and most likely not for ten years, but certainly they could have fled. Or perhaps, exiles.

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
posted 18 June 2007 13:57 EDT (US)     11 / 14  
To quote from an acknowledged master of all things Mycenaean, M.I.Finley:

'The unassailable fact is that nothing... not a single scrap links the destruction of Troy VIIa with Mycenaean Greece or with invasion from any other source. Nor does aything from the archaeology of Asia Minor or from the Linear B tablets fit with the Homeric tale...Troy VIIa turns out to have been a pitiful poverty stricken little place, with no treasure, with no large or imposing buildings, with othing remotely resembling a palace. It is not mentioned in any contemporary document in Hittite or any other language, nor is a 'Trojan War'. And there are other archeological difficulties, notably in the chronology'. (he World of Odysseus)

Troy VIIa is undisputably the settlement that existed at the time of the Mycenaeans. So if it was beseiged at all, it wasn't by Mycenean Greece... And there's no evidence that it was in fact ever beseiged other than the fact it was destroyed by fire, which may of course have been accidental. The site remained under occupation...

Caskey:

'the physical remains of Troy VIIa do not prove beyond question that the place was captured at all. An accidental fire...might account for the general destruction.'

he adds:

'Furthermore, if this citadel was not sacked - and indeed if it was not sacked by Greeks under Agamemnon - we are left without a compelling reason to go on calling it Troy.'


Finley:

'Hissarlik [the site under discussion] is the only fortress in that part of Asia Minor that could have been under siege, and Troy VIIa is the one stratum which could have been relevant.'


So the only evidence that exists for a historical Troy is a city that was small, poor and destroyed by fire (and the destruction by fire - which might well have been accidental - is the only evidence of a siege).

Civile! Si ergo fortibusis in ero.
Wassis inem causan dux?
Gnossis vile demsis trux!

I suggest that before badgering for a translation you take the time to read it out loud. Thankyou.
posted 18 June 2007 15:26 EDT (US)     12 / 14  
You could say that about many cities if you wished, in which we do not have specific proof. Think of it this way, if we didn't have historians who specifically told us that, say, Titus burned down the temple of Jeruseluam, it could liably seem accidental .

I'm not saying the Greeks did it at all, as I said in my other post, but it would be a bit silly to assume that it was never sieged and sacked by some nation of a sort.

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
posted 18 June 2007 16:03 EDT (US)     13 / 14  
if we didn't have historians who specifically told us that, say, Titus burned down the temple of Jeruseluam, it could liably seem accidental .
According to at least some of the sources, it was.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
posted 18 June 2007 17:11 EDT (US)     14 / 14  
My issue is saying that because no positive evidence has been discovered, we assume that the tales of Troy just came out of thin air. There was a city there. There was the tradition dating to at least 800 at latest, certainly much earlier. Saying that there was no Trojan war is stating that some random poet just picked a name off of a map, and that seems highly unlikely.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
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