Psst. Flanking destroys phalanxes.

not if you prevent the enemy from flanking you. Phalanxes always need cheap units on the flanks along with cavalry support to ensure that they arent flanked. I was just discussing on how to maximize their effectiveness not overall battle strategy and army planning.

Strong cavalry units will break any "cheap" unit you left to protect the flanks. Did you check out those Germanic and Scythian cavalries? One Gothic cavalry ripped through a praetorain unit and then chased and cut down everyone of them.

The cheap units are there as a speed bump. Sure the cavalry will chew through them but that will take some time. Time enough for you to bring in a reserve unit or two to take care of the cavalry. Or if the situation is just that dire to reconfigure your phalanx line so that it is no longer being flanked.

I think a legion line, if wide enough, would push back most infantry units on the sides and go around the phalanx's flanks. You might lose some men in the middle, but you'd still break the phalanx in the end.

By the time you managed to pull that off your units in the center going toe to toe against the phalanx would have been generally masacred and routed long ago. Whatever units are left on the flanks would then be easily mopped up.

I'm pretty much prefer the opposite of you Shifty. I trade brutal stopping power for diversity and a greater level of flexibility. Yours is the embodiment of a meatgrinder war machine, but it's easily jammed from the rears. The best phalanx tactic for me is like this:

C= Cavalry
L= Light infantry
A= Archers
H= Hoplites in phalanx formation.
G= General(if any)
---= Spread out
/C\= Wedged cavalry
|||= empty space, just to show the formation accurately

|||||||C|||HHHHHHH|L||LL
||||/C\||---A---||--L--||/C\
||/C\|||---A---||G

I usually keep phalanx units 4 units deep if they're on normal and 5-6 on larger settings depending on how many I have. Cavalry on the front lines are in standard formation but rear cavalry are in wedge. If I have light infantry that isn't ranged they go on the front lines with the ranged on the back, otherwise I keep the same setup but move them back behind the infantry and use cavalry to screen them. Another simple variation to this if my flank units really suck is:

||||||||C|||HHHH|L||L
|||||/C\|H|H-A--H|H|L||L
|||/C\|||||--A--||G|/C\

It's pretty good at repulsing heavy flank attacks, but it's really not too flexible meaning it's an execute well or die miserably strategy. Then again that's how it is with most phalanx tactics anyway. Also, if they don't have great quality units in their flanks the rear cavalry can take full advantage of that and drive themselves into their rear full force. You'll probably end up taking some heavy casualties but theirs will be immense.

[This message has been edited by Ace_Cataphract (edited 09-27-2004 @ 10:50 PM).]

In my experience, phalanx-type units work best as part of a main line of battle, with regular infantry (not cheap, just not phalanx) on the flanks. Cavalry go on the far flanks and to the rear, ready to assist where needed.

This is fairly simple, but effective. Your main line of battle will be extremely strong, particulary in the center, and if you have even an elmentary grasp of strategy you should be able to prevent the opponent from outflanking you.

The bad part about this strat is flexibility... it can't respond to unusual situations well.

By the way, when using a phalanx, what's the best depth for the formation? Just deep enough so all the spears can be brought to bear, and wider, or more square shaped?

I would be curious to know if the phalanx "stacking" works in MP play.

I tend to go with the other guys (if a newb can be so bold) and agree that flexability is king.

With the speed of online play, if something happens and the bad guy pins the phalanx stack in front while getting behind them, it's light's out, IMHO.

AI won't do it, but in MP, I imagine that it will be an opponent's top priority to get behind the meat grinder.

I was just reflecting on the title post.

Isn't the fact that this is possible in the game unrealistic and a misfeature? Phalanxes are supposed to be as tightly packed as they can be already...

I just won a battle, and the Phalanxes got ripped to shreds, really, a Wedged Horse Formation from the flanks can be deadly...

The main problem with a phalanx is the fact that men cannot run. This means any reasonably speedy harassing unit can disrupt and distract it...so they don't see you wedges of cavalry charging.

Yep, no idea, they were all actually walking towards my archers on the hill.

People are seeming to think that my entire army would consist of just one large phalanx which is entirely untrue. I was just focusing on the phalanx/mainline portion of the army.

In regards to marius's post yes it is impossible to do this in real life but if the game will allow it than why not exploit it?

Anyway.

Now i will continue on a probably rather lengthy look at overall battle strategy and unit placement using a line of double-blocked phalanxes as the main portion of the army.

In a full army (20 units) I would include 7 units of phalanx, 3 units of heavey infantry, 2 units of skirmishers, the general (whatever he may be), 2 units of medium cavalry, 1 unit of super-heavey cavalry, 2 units of archers, and two units of whatever the situation calls for (these can be elephants, chariots, more cavalry, or more infantry). 6 phalanx units would be double-blocked and placed on the front line with the 2 skirmishers directly in front. 2 units of heavey infantry would guard the flanks and also serve to funnel enemy infantry into the phalanx. 1 unit of heavey infantry and 1 phalanx unit would stay in reserve on the flanks to support where needed. The archers would obviously be behind the phalanx line. The 2 units of medium cavalry would be on the flanks to guard them or possibly attack the rear of the enemy. The unit of super-heavey cavalry would be used as needed to swing the battle.

This would give me an impenetrable front line along with supporting units to hold any flankers. The enemy may have extremely powerful flankers but it doesnt matter. By the time the enemy flankers manage to break through your support units the enemy infantry going against the phalanx should be masacred and routing allowing the phalanx to reposition and take the flankers head on.

On another tactical note for those of you who want your phalanx army to be incredibly flexible here is the perfect formation that is nearly impossible to flank or attack from the rear.

position your units like this:

CCC---HHH-----------------------------HHH---CCC
CCC---HHH-----IIIII-----------IIIII------HHH---CCC
----------HHH--IIIII-----------IIIII--HHH----------
----------HHH----------------------HHH----------
--------------HHH----AAAAA----HHH--------------
--------------HHH----AAAAA----HHH--------------
------------------HHH-HHH-HHH------------------
------------------HHH-HHH-HHH------------------

HHH
HHH - unit of phalanx
CCC
CCC - unit of cavalry
III
III - unit of supporting infantry
AAA
AAA - unit of archers

In this formation you present your enemy with a solid phalanx front with a cascade of phalanx units going back on the flanks to form an overall V forrmation. Note that the side phalanxes are facing forward and are not at an angle. This allows great flexibility in that the phalanx line can lenthen or shorten as the need arises, act as its own protection against flanking cavalry and the like, and if the opportunity presents itself it can even go and flank the enemy.

You may not be understanding how this can work so ill show you with several examples. Say that the enemy line of infantry is longer than your front phalanx line. Move the flank phalanxes forward so that the line is lengthed by another unit while you still have the other phalanxes in the V formation giving you something like this:

H-------H H---------
-H-----H- -H-------H
--H---H-- --H-----H-
---HHH--- ---HHHH--
---EEEE-- ---EEEE---

If the enemy manages to flank your front line phalanx during the battle just move your flank phalanxes forward again and you should be able to take care of that annoyance.

If the enemy tries to attack your flank phalanxes with cavalry or something such angle two of your phalanxes to take the attack head on and use a unit of phalanx that was farther back to flank the flankers.

Use your cavalry to stop any enemies trying to get into position to come from the rear. If they manage to sneak past you just turn a phalanx or two around to address the new threat if your support infantry cant handle it themselves.

If you could understand what i was trying to show then you realize what an incredibly flexible formation this one can be. It can adapt to any situation with an ease that most people dont think is possible with a phalanx. Obviously your best would need to be closest to the center because they will be doing most all of the fighting. If the enemy manages to break through and rout your front line phalanx then invert and collapse the two arms on them. The formation is prinarily a reactionary formation in that you react to what your enemy throws at you and not vice versa. This howver is not inherently a bad thing but it does take a different sort of thinking on the part of the general to deploy it to best effect.

anyway. enough for now.

That's a good one Shifty, but I think you can maximize the formation if you put your a bit closer to the front line and the infantry behind the cavalry and outside of the Phalanx. That way in a pinch the infantry can be used to fight directly, without having to wade through the phalanxes, and the cavalry can be brought to bear earlier.

Thanks. I placed the cavalry towards the rear because their main purpose is to help protect. If you have good cavalry and wnt to take more of an offensive stance then you can move them forward to possibly flank or rear the enemy. Infantry on the outside would work as well but id rather have them within the formation for several reasons. Firstly to guard against an attack from the rear into the center of your formation. Secondly because they shouldnt be doing any fighting. They are there as a secondary defense if the enemy manages to break through at any point. Although you can put the infantry on the outside if you want to take a more offensive stance.

I was thinking of another strategy that was actually employed in history by the Thebans to defeat the Spartans (although the spartan loss was more due to their own fault rather than the theban strategy). Regardless the startegy will still work against another phalanx army and only another phalanx army. Take your line and cascade it like so (as compared to the enemy phalanx 'G'):

HHH-------------------------
HHH-HHH--------------------
-----HHH-HHH---------------
----------HHH-HHH----------
---------------HHH-HHH-HHH
--------------------HHH-HHH
GGG-GGG-GGG-GGG-GGG-GGG
GGG-GGG-GGG-GGG-GGG-GGG

This is generally done only if you have one or two actual high-quality phalanx units and the rest are just phalanx militiamen or some equally not so good unit that you do not want to have in the fight. The tactic can also be used if you do not have enough units to double-block your entire line. The cascade can be angled to either side according to the enemy's formation. Note the phalanxes are facing forward and not at an angle.

Your best units (or those that you can double-block) are placed on the right and should be the only units to engage the enemy through the battle. The idea is to advance the line until only the units you want to fight are actually engaged. Then very very slowly continue to move the rest of line forward. The effect should be that for the majority of the battle your unengaged units are far enough away that enemy cant charge them without splitting their own line but the units are also close enough so that the enemy cant reposition their own unengaged units to support those that are already engaged for that you could easily and quickly flank them. In this way you force the enemy line to stay exactly where it is while the units on the right are slaughtering the enemy. When those units rout you continue to move the formation forward and slowly wrap it around the enemy line until it is crushed.

I myself havent gotten a chance to use this tactic yet as it is a situation specfic tactic but the theory and how the actual real life battle went showed that it can work fairly well. I caution you that the units on the right doing the fighting must be your absolute best because the entire battle will rest on them. I also remind you that this tactic can only be used against another phalanx as normal infantry can easily just charge your lines.

The direction that your line cascades in should be so that you engage your enemy's weakest units while their strongest units are forced to sit and wait. As the enemy line varies from battle to battle you will have to vary your cascade to always engage your strongest units with the enemys weakest units for maximum effect. This may require you to use a V formation to engage the center and not the flanks or possibly even an inverted V formation to engage the flanks and not the center.

If anyone manages to use this tactic could you please tell me how it went.

I did some research into that tactic as I've also heard of how the Thebans effectively used it against the Spartans, but I saw that a main part of the force were the supporting light infantry. They form a skirmish line and attack first, used as harrassing units to hit the phalanx and run with cavalry to protect them from other light infantry. They then pull back and as the phalanx advances, the first element to engage which is the part of the "slope" that's farthest to the front should have another unit of hoplites in the rear. The point isn't to engage the enemy one by one on your own terms, it's to push their right flank(left from your view) and rout it so that you're able to roll down through their lines. I'll show the part of the battle that only depicts the hoplites. The enemy battle line is on top, yours is on the bottom:

[EEEE]= One unit of the enemy hoplites.
[HHHH]= One unit of your hoplites.

-----[EEEE][EEEE][EEEE][EEEE][EEEE][EEEE][EEEE]-----
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-----[HHHH][HHHH]-----------------------------------
-----[HHHH]-------[HHHH]-----------------------------
--------------------------[HHHH][HHHH]-----------------
----------------------------------------[HHHH]-----------

The first two units engage with the rear unit basically being used to double stack the right wing unit. It should break the enemy line and while he moves in to engage your army you remove the two right phalanxes from phalanx formation and have them charge the flanks of the enemy phalanx. The left wing is refused to bide you some time so that only after you've broken their right wing will your right wing be forced into some real danger. Ideally with this tactic you'll have light supporting infantry which after using their missiles will be moved in to support your right wing which even though it's far behind will be extremely vulnerable. Your best unit is supposed to be the double stacked one on your left flank with the worst in the middle since the right wing will be too dangerous to put them there.

EDIT: Here's a map of the battle of Mantinea, a battle where this strategy was used:

[This message has been edited by Ace_Cataphract (edited 09-30-2004 @ 09:21 PM).]

Now, after reading some of these, I was wondering, and I wish some of you would try this idea. I'm not saying it works, nor have I tried it, but what if you positioned 4 phalanx in a + formation.

||
HH
--HHHHHH--
--HHHHHH--
HH
||

Now obviously the corners would be dangerously weak, and the whole thing would be weak against archers, however, I would like to see how effective it is elsewhere. Feel free to comment & critize

As for the phalanx, I've had little difficulty defeating them with missiles and cavelry from the side. They really just crumble beneath the spear-head charge. Which makes me like my 4 sided diamond idea, wince it's hard to manuever troops into those small spots.

I guess i was phrasing things a bit vaguely but essentially we gave the same overall startegy except for some minor differences. Most notably i liked how you placed the weakest units in the center instead of the far flank as i had them. So thanks on that. I think we're agreeing on the overall idea that only your best troops on the flank actually engage the enemy and the rest of the line only serves to keep the enemy line in its place.

There is however another tactic that the spartans tried to use in this battle and had they pulled it off would have easily handed them the victory.

The basic idea is that against another phalanx after several minutes of battle to break formation and make believe you are routing. At this point the enemy phalanx will also break formation to pursue. At the right moment you have your forces turn around and reform the formation. The disorganized enemy troops will then be virtually masacred.

I dont think this tactic would work particularly well though within the game for several reasons although it possibly could. Just a thought. Youd have to watch for enemy cavalry as they would sweep in and clean up the troops before the formation could be reformed. You must also be careful that the enemy infantry isnt faster than your own as that would also lead to undesired effects.

The tactic did however get me thinking and have developed a sort of variant on it. You would have 2 phalanx lines one a little ways behind the other. At some point in the battle you could have your front line break formation and retreat behind the second line and reform. The enemy would then be faced with a second fresh wall of spears. You could continue this tactic in a leapfrog effect to continually present the enemy with a fresh solid line of spears. But there is another side effect of this tactic that ive been looking to exploit and that is the fact that you continually lure the enemy further and further back.

The mosy obvious thought is to lure them into some sort of trap. Have infantry hiding in forests on the flanks and behind your lines then bring the enemy back until your forces are behind their lines. This could work very well as we all know how devastating an attack to the rear can be. This led me to think what would happen if i used the tactic with half of my line but not the other half. Esentially splitting their line in two but this would expose your own flank with devastating results. As of yet i have only thought of one viable use of the tactic but even it incures extreme risks on your part.

Split your forces in two so that you have two seperate phalanx lines and advance on the enemy on an angle. Obviously the enemy would readjust his own lines into an angled V shape. The leap-frog the two lines directly backward to split the two arms of the V leaving a gaping hole in the middle. Charge your cavalry through that hole and wreak havok from behind the enemy lines.

-----H----
---H------
-H----G---
C-----GG--
C-----GG--
-H----G---
---H------
-----H----

----------
------HG--
----HG----
C-HG------
C-HG------
----HG----
------HG--
----------

-----HG---
---HG-----
-HG-------
----CC----
----CC----
-HG-------
---HG-----
-----HG---

The largest weakness in the strategy is that not only are your flanks exposed but they are also facing the enemy. Unless you have excessive amounts of cavalry you will need to position all of your cavalry in the center so that you can have maximum impact later in the battle. This of course keeps them from the flanks. The startegy is theoretically good but overall there are much better phalanx strategies available.

If you can think up a good use for the leapfrog tactic id like to hear it Ace.

Tell me if im missing something but i dont see any way a plus formation would work. You just expose way too much of your flank and dont present the enemy with a large enough front to be effective. Taking it a step further i dont see how a box formation could work either. The corners would crumble within seconds.

Shifty said,
"In regards to marius's post yes it is impossible to do this in real life but if the game will allow it than why not exploit it?"

Everything in a game that makes no sense is a "cheat"..but one word that comes very close is exploit. Yes, I know you don't mean it that way, but the fact you can intersperse ANYTHING except skirmisher troops is a horrible game feature that was no doubt mandatory as it's so much harder to program interpenetration rules for the various troop types. One of the big reasons this irks me is when you are cramming people through a city wall. You'll have masses of infantry in the pass, but then can tell Cavalry to push right through them....I mean it's absurd.

The real time part of these games has always been a direct recreation of tabletop miniature games, that were largely popularized by Donald Featherstone, and originated in large part in the West in the modern era by H.G. Wells' "Little Wars". Now I know probably 80 percent of you already know this basic stuff, but I'm willing to bet that as more generations lose that part of gaming, with the uberness that is computer games like this one (I just LOVE this game), we'll also lose the ability to compare what things were "important" in ancient military combat simulators. No reputable tabletop rule set ever allowed
this sort of interpenetration for good reasons.

Now the meatgrinder doesn't concern me greatly, cause you lose major frontage doing that.
But now I can see folks in MP coming up with all sorts of things the might be very effective for which any "student of military tactics" would never think of due to it's physical impossibility in real life.

Well, it IS just a game...so I guess if I see an elephant cheerleader pyramid built 4 stories high, with the top elephant juggling basketballs, I'll just laugh as they run into my military formation created with physics involved. :-)
M. Musashi

My main problem about the phalanx is that its slow, and units cant run while theyre in it.
I dont know if anyone realized this, but if you ask me the phalanx sucks against cavalry, all they have to do is run around it. I really hate all spear units, but i have gotten the most use out of them against other infantry.

Well Ironsides, the double stacked phalanx is possible in real life, since there's space between soldiers in a phalanx. It just wasn't done in real life because it totally destroys any maneuverability that the hoplites may have had.

Quote:

That seems really tough to pull off. I think your idea would work if you're fighting a non-cavalry intensive army...ie: not Parthia or Macedon.

Also, it seems really good for fighting against another phalanx if you're on the defensive and can force them to take a hike to reach your positions. Otherwise it seems dangerous to have them try to outrun another phalanx.

Well, an idea I had wasn't with the Greeks or Macedonians, more for the Seleucids really, but it should work with the Carthaginians too. You basically set up cavalry as the front line with elephants a good distance away from their flanks. Then you set up your phalanx with light infantry support significantly far behind them. Set up the Phalanx in a straight line with the strongest on the left and the weakest in the middle and the medium ones on the right, but positioning all of the light infantry support on the right. Well if the enemy sends their infantry to move in on your cavalry if it's spear or phalanx infantry then your cavalry line collapses at a walk if they're much slower than you and as they follow your cavalry their line should be walking straight into a gauntlet with elephants lining the sides. The elephants crash through their lines, obliterating them, and in the chaos your cavalry charges. Your elephats are expected to go in then rout after a good fight. If they run amok, all the better as they'll utterly obliterate the enemies that come at them. Well after a charge your cavalry runs back and reforms on the ungaurded flank of your phalanx. Then you revert to textbook phalanx tactics to take out the rest of their army.

It's not leapfrog, but it's a good trap strategy. Again it's mostly a defensive strategy, but mabye you or anyone else can find a good way to modify it into an offensive one.

Quote:

Osiris, read more posts in the thread. A Greek textbook phalanx is a lumbering wall of unmoving spearmen. We've illustrated several times before in this thread ways that the phalanx can be made deadly in almost any situation. Some are textbook Alexandrian tactics. Others are late Greek tactics and some are completely experimental, but all of them serve to make the phalanx a very formidable and flexible war machine.

I checked that V formation of phalanx.

I can't really check for the counter without playing against it but here's what I'd try to do.

As a Roman (which is all I played till now)
I would put my legions in front of the first line of phalanx... NOT to attack. but just stand there in testudo formation (to soak up the missiles if they were thrown)

I would make a gap between two legions and put a balista there to shoot between them into the tightly packed phalaxes. (out of reach of the enemy archers of course)

Phalaxes will have to either soak it up... or move against it.

If they move it's HARD to keep them ordered enough without gaps appearing for cavalry or even waiting legions. all the while under attack from balista and archers.

All units in front are also faster than phalanx so they can get out of the way if needed.

If they try to soak up the damage I let them... and head off to the back with my archers or horse archers with cavalry support. They will try to lure the cavalry away. archers will shoot the cavalry... and if they try to counter I'll sacrifice archers and flank his cavalry with my own cavalry charge.

As soon he's out of cavalry support on one side I can bring (without to much trouble) my reserve legions at the back and he can't risk turning the phallanx as the testudo formationed legions are still there waiting.

Basicly I can try some shifty moves agsinst his reserve infantry and try to provoke him to move the phalanx.

As I see it. Phalax is only good if you can get people to commit against its wall which you don't have to do. You can force the phalanx to hold their direction with a waiting infantry or cavalry (to charge them if they turn). You need less units to do this coz you can pick and chose the turning phalanx and the other phalanxes are not fast enough to respond in help before major damage. I can always run away while he can't afford to leave to protective V formation to chase.

IMO the flexible infantry wins out as all he can do is stand still. If he doesn't then his line will break up sooner or later allowing flanking to be done.

All that said (and it was long )) phalanx is GREAT for making sure that line holds for a while. But if you don't use that staying power to win by activity of other units you're just waiting to be picked apart... it might take a while but it's a matter of time against a good opponent.

If you're threatend on one flank by a waiting enemy, the solution is simple. You simply curl the flank of the phalanx, that way you're making a "roll" of spears at the end of the line that can easily be whipped back into position once they break the charge.