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Topic Subject: Do Numidians pwn?
posted 04 February 2005 04:42 EDT (US)   
Just for fun I played the Numidians in a few 2v2 matches (practice for the HG doubles tourney... ). They seem to me to be very powerful and versatile, and cool to boot - why are they so rarely used?

Infantry:
Desert Infantry - at under 400 gold, I was shocked to find that they have good morale, stamina, and overall decent stats. When I compare them to the 400 gold infantry of the other civs, I found the desert infantry to be more powerful than most of them. It has slightly lower defense than the auxilia, but makes up for this with better attack, charge, and morale. In fact, it is one of the few infantry under 400 gold that have good morale yet does not charge without orders.

Numidian Legionaries:
These infantry are far inferior to their Roman counterparts, but they can hold their own if necessary. At the very least, using these will be the equivalent of bringing elephants to a Roman army.

Long Shield Cavalry:
An excellent light cavalry, with good morale and stats for its cost. On its own it can't beat heavy infantry and cavalry, but in a flanking move it can be devastating, especially when combined with...

Mercenary elephants:
Essentially War Elephants, but slightly less expensive and slightly more powerful (only very slightly), at least according to the Unit Comparison Chart at RTWH downloads. The Numidians may lack heavy cavalry, but with the elephants, they don't need any. Flaming arrows may cause them to run amok, but combine them with the long shield cavalry, and you can kick most archers to hell and back. They will run through two units of armoured hoplites before routing, allowing your long shields to mop up the distrupted hoplites. They can shoot arrows at hoplites. They own heavy cavalry which may rout your long shields.

Numidian camel riders:
At about the same cost (10 gold more expensive) as the long shield, this unit is almost identical to the long shield, but lacks the LS' secondary attack, and is slower, making it slightly less effective as the support of elephants. However, they do have the important power of owning cavalry. This takes away one of the weaknesses of the long shield, the heavy cavalry. Also, they are slightly better than the long shield in sand, meaning that for maps with sand they are even better than usual. A compromise can be a mix of long shields, camels, and elephants.

Numidian Cavalry:
An average cavalry skirmisher, nothing really glamourous in combat. However, they do have higher missile attack than any other cav skirmisher, and have good stamina and morale.

My general tactic with Numidians with 15k per person on large unit size:
4x onagers (2880)
3x archers (570)
6x Desert infantry (2340)
3x Mercenary war elephants (7470)
3x Long shield/Numidian camels (1530/1560)
And still have 180 gold leftover for upgrades.

I'll put the onagers behind the desert infantry and the archers in front. Everything not on foot goes to one flank. While the desert infantry can't form phalanx and thus don't have the awesome phalanx capability in frontal combat, they do offer more flexibility that way. I'll attempt to force the enemy to action with the onagers. With 3 elephants and 3 decent light cav on the flank I'll most likely be able to defeat his flank and surround the enemy.

I don't have total success with this tactic, but it does do fairly well - even the cav + eles alone can do significant damage. Once engaged, the desert infantry and archers won't last long, but if the flank can be won, that doesn't matter very much.

And the Numidians have a high degree of monetary flexibility. On very high budgets, they can go heavy on elephants; on very low budgets their cheap but powerful infantry and cavalry can dominate the field.

Comment.

Replies:
posted 04 February 2005 05:07 EDT (US)     1 / 21  
Oh, the reason why they are so rarely played is quite simple. They are an "unplayable faction" and few people have played them in the campaign. You sometimes fight against them in the campaign, but they never cause all that much trouble.

People usually play factions they are familiar with or factions, and Numidia is typically not one of them.

I'm not going to comment anything else though, as I haven't played them yet. They do look pretty good though.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 04 February 2005 05:25 EDT (US)     2 / 21  
Well, now with the serious Roman nerf, I hope they will play Numidians more

However, the only campaign which I ever completed was with Julii, and Romans is THE civ which I played least online. I actually tend to play civs which I hadn't played in campaigns online, THEN try it out in a campaign.

posted 04 February 2005 06:29 EDT (US)     3 / 21  
Really? Hmm. Then I guess its because people don't know they get elephants in MP.

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 04 February 2005 06:52 EDT (US)     4 / 21  
Please see my recent thread named "Circle of Death"
posted 05 February 2005 06:51 EDT (US)     5 / 21  
I love numidia, because i read their history before playing them (best cavalry in the western mediteranian) and because they are the consumate little guys in the game. I play with them because of their limitations and their potential. A clever player can use Numidian Cavalry and desert infantry to take egypt etc etc. And even though they don't have any real high level units, this just gives a bigger priority to keeping armies going to get them experience. In one game id conquered all of africa and was pushing into asia minor with an army of gold chevron legionaires, long shields, archers and camels. Oh and by the way, anyone who hasn't taken the half second required to edit the game files in order to play as the weaker factions is a wuss. Ive actually seen some people call this a cheat (?) but really it opens the game up to much greater potential.
posted 05 February 2005 09:08 EDT (US)     6 / 21  
The reason i don't play them online is cos they are a heavy cav civilisation. Putting them against greece or macadon when they have cav protecting there flanks, suicide. Even longshields struggle to beet companions, and companions are a more versatile cav unit. Also with phalanxs against cav, I wonder who might win???????? phalanx of course.
I alays play macedon or greece, cos i love hoplite tactics!!!!!!

English & Proud
posted 05 February 2005 14:26 EDT (US)     7 / 21  
They are fun, but I am not good enough for them online. Experience makes them amazing, but online caps it. Campaign is fun with them
posted 05 February 2005 19:27 EDT (US)     8 / 21  
I'm not good with the Numidians because I'm not good at light cavalry factions. I guess I don't have that finess in the end, but in multiplayer, I can't fight well with any cavalry lighter than a Companion. But anyway, I prefer to hold the enemy down and smash them. I'm more of a Carthaginian player than a Numidian player. Both are similar ideas of warfare, but different styles, IMO.

I put a dollar in one of those change machines. Nothing changed. ~George Carlin
posted 05 February 2005 20:10 EDT (US)     9 / 21  
Hmm i like you. You took a civ that most had NO respect for and offered a viable strategy...will have to try it.

Crusade! Our brothers in the East need out swords to subdue the Infidel! The Saracen defiles the Sepulchre and is at the gates of the Roman emperor!. Ride! Ride ye holy soldiers to Jerusalem! Byzantium calls for aid...Christ and the Virgin weep at the blood of martyrs spilled on holy pilgrimages! Crusade! -Medieval 2: Total War
posted 05 February 2005 22:03 EDT (US)     10 / 21  

Quote:

The reason i don't play them online is cos they are a heavy cav civilisation.


Numidians are no more heavy cav than Germans or Carthage.

Quote:

Putting them against greece or macadon when they have cav protecting there flanks, suicide. Even longshields struggle to beet companions, and companions are a more versatile cav unit. Also with phalanxs against cav, I wonder who might win???????? phalanx of course.


That's what elephants and onagers are for.

Quote:

I'm not good with the Numidians because I'm not good at light cavalry factions. I guess I don't have that finess in the end, but in multiplayer, I can't fight well with any cavalry lighter than a Companion.


There aren't many cavalry lighter than a Companion anyway, my backbone for Numidians is usually the desert infantry.

Quote:

Hmm i like you. You took a civ that most had NO respect for and offered a viable strategy...will have to try it.


I've decided to change my strategy, since desert infantry just don't hold out long unlike phalanxes. I've decided to go for more mobilty, which was probably the Numidian's original aim.
posted 06 February 2005 00:59 EDT (US)     11 / 21  

Quote:

There aren't many cavalry lighter than a Companion


10 Attack with 17 defense and +12 charge isn't very light.

I put a dollar in one of those change machines. Nothing changed. ~George Carlin
posted 06 February 2005 01:19 EDT (US)     12 / 21  
^Were the Companion's charge bonus changed?

After some tests, I've decided that the best thing to do with Numidians is to take the inititative. Shatter the enemy's formation - phalanxes in particular - with elephants, then mow them up with camels while they are still fresh. Desert infantry follow up.

posted 06 February 2005 01:51 EDT (US)     13 / 21  
^Sounds like Blitzkrieg.

posted 06 February 2005 13:26 EDT (US)     14 / 21  
Ah yes elephant charges on my phalanxes...::goes to market with a bag that has a picture of tusks then leaves the market practicaly skipping with flee to the bank:: Phalanxes mince elephants unless you charge 7+units on to it.

Crusade! Our brothers in the East need out swords to subdue the Infidel! The Saracen defiles the Sepulchre and is at the gates of the Roman emperor!. Ride! Ride ye holy soldiers to Jerusalem! Byzantium calls for aid...Christ and the Virgin weep at the blood of martyrs spilled on holy pilgrimages! Crusade! -Medieval 2: Total War
posted 06 February 2005 16:18 EDT (US)     15 / 21  
Heh, ah, just try playing them in the campaign. Your first non-peasant infantry unit is skirmishers. Yeah, skirmishers, from a barracks. So if you want to take ANY settlements (neighbours are Carthage, Egypt and some rebels), you need to wait until one of your settlements grows and you build the next barracks. The infantry aren't bad then, but the settlements in western Africa are really, really spread out. It's a huge pain. They're amazing defenders, and decent in MP but SP you end up not fighting for 20 or so turns until you can FINALLY move out.
posted 07 February 2005 01:55 EDT (US)     16 / 21  
Actually elephants smash Phalanx pretty well. It won;t kill them, but it'll break formation. That's what the follow up cavalary is for. Remeber, Elephants can take a lot of hits, so if you keep them moving, it is actually quite hard to kill them.

posted 07 February 2005 02:51 EDT (US)     17 / 21  
i lyk numidia.......always did

but i lyk carthage better
i lyk scythia/parthia better than carthage
i lyk selucid better than scythia/parthia
i lyk german better than selucid

i lyk rome best of all over eveything

the reason? they look the best. those legions marching up in their formations, those red shields that r so huge. the way they get redy for battle, the way they hold their ground n chuch pila and most of all, the history of the roman legions.


"Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back."
"Conquer and get slaves. Conquered and BE slaves!"
"Let them hate us. As long as they fear us."

"People should know when they're conquered. Would you? Would I?" ..... Now there is a good question to be asked!

posted 07 February 2005 03:24 EDT (US)     18 / 21  
You "lyk" Numidians, although you like 6 more civilization than the Numidians. Lol, that's not very high in your "lyk" list.

posted 07 February 2005 04:22 EDT (US)     19 / 21  

I've mentioned before I like Numidians simply because they're the only civ with a realistic camel unit. Which is to say one that is worthile in combat but doesn't cost 1000+ Dinarii. Heavy Camels, I'll admit, are amazing killing machines but Numidian Camels are fantastic as well in their own right.

Also for the campaign people - I can take Carthage and Thapsus in a small number of turns, ten or fifteen (not 100% sure) just use lots of cavalry and one or perhaps two skirmishers to dig out sap points.

posted 07 February 2005 04:44 EDT (US)     20 / 21  
Plus, Numidians are the only faction which can get FOUR UNITS of War-Elephants under 10000 Denarii!!!

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 02-07-2005 @ 04:44 AM).]

posted 07 February 2005 06:50 EDT (US)     21 / 21  

Quote:

Ah yes elephant charges on my phalanxes...::goes to market with a bag that has a picture of tusks then leaves the market practicaly skipping with flee to the bank:: Phalanxes mince elephants unless you charge 7+units on to it.


Tell that to Nog64.
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