Nice! And thank you for the praise, although, none is needed.

A great tactic definately! One which I use regularly. let me say from experience, that anyone who trys this one will crush the enemy. Good work TWF!

I wish we could stickie these or something. Its too bad that they will go to the bottom of the page when most of us have seen them. But for new people, if it was stickied, then they could just click it. Hmmm, if I was a mod, I'd create a tactic thread, I would apoint certain people who could creat drawings for it, and any advice or tips or ideas would be welcome to the public. At request of course! They would send the reques to myself, and I or someone who helps would create the pic, or tactic for it. Or people could create their own, send it to me, and we could post it. With fixes for show of course.

Bla bla bla...lol.

Dam you. I was going to do that
Still, there's always the barberians, romans, greeks, etc...

What we actually need is when we've done about half a dozen threads one thread as an index that links all these together. Links to strats on the main sites also would be good.

I took Kotais from Armenia playing as Pontus. 4 turns later a Scythian general with one group of axemen and the rest ALL horse archers sieged me. And they waited it out instead of attacking, which I was hoping they would, but they didn't There was no way in hell I would have engaged them for a win lol.

Yeah a sticky thread would be great. We could all post each of our tactical setups in there.

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Sorry, I had no idea.

You know it would totally work out. TWF, you seem good at multiplayer tactics, as well as single, but I myself have no experience in multiplay. Us 3 could esily create it. BUT HOW?? Wartrain could help if he was here....

What if you're facing an enemy with a large archer+cavalry force? Since you mentioned you fought against romans initially with this strat, say you're faced with a force of archers+praetorians? Although archers won't be as effective with your cavalry doing CA circle, there'll still be more of them, and they're much cheaper, meaning they would vastly outnumber your horse archers (so be able to beat you with ranged firepower). That then leaves it to your elephants and cataphrat camels to try and win the battle - the elephants can easily be taken care of with fire arrows, causing them to rout with minor losses to the archers (if charged by the elephants). As for the cataphract camels, although dangerous against horses, praetorian cavalry can usually hold their own against them, and cost less as well. Onagers would also be pretty ineffective against spread out archers, and might struggle to hit the cavalry if moving.
Of course, the effectiveness agaisnt the rough setup I've described would depend largely on the amount of funds available - if you were in a game with masses of money then it wouldn't work so well, but in one with say 10k (the default when starting a custom battle) or even a bit more you'd be limited with the troops you could have (as cataphracts, elephants, persian cavalry and onagers are all very expensive), and your job would be made even more difficult.

I almost answered that, but I forgot, TWF, this is yours to answer my friend!

I would like to say one thing more - this is rather costly army. I play mostly 12500, and I use this: 2 eles, 6 Persian cavalry, 11 archers (3 golden swors each).

It works well too - cavalry can be shot down/killed by archers - they are hard to catch even with cavalry. If I play with art, I switch 2 PC for 2 onagers, that´s all.

With certain game experience, it gives win ratio about 10:1 which is not bad. I believe that Parthia is one of the strongest nations in low denarii.

TotalWarFanatic - as I said to undefeatable (who I'm also very grateful to), thank you very much for strategy suggestions - they're a great help for people like me

- Nick

I could chip in here and there, organiseing the large index thread, provideing screenies, some minor strats, etc.

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Preotorian cav and archers vs. my setup. This is even easier than if they had some preotorian guards with them (infantry) instead of the cavalry and so many archers.
You just appraoch as normal then go in to ca circle, firing at at their archers. You can kill of their archers before they do yours because of the ca circle. Then once your out of arrows surround and charge the cavalry who will be killed even quicker.
But if their cav charges, then pull the ha out of ca circle and run them down in the middle toward your elephants. Charge them from the 3 sides with your cataphract camels and elaphants. Elaphants and camels both get bonuses against cavalry. The other option is charge their cav with your elephants, then charge their archers with your cat camels. They will be destroyed. Meanwhile, your ele will lose some and because of the mass of enemy cavalry will run amock, killing many even quicker than before.
Some one else said the setup is expensive. I can do it with 15 grand, which is about the lowest amount of money you'll encounter in a normal multiplayer mathup.

Just a side note:

For those newbies who may be reading these it is important to remember that you should never follow a tactic or strategy down to a tee.

WHY? Because things happen that you cannot foresee and as such a well form battle plan can turn into a trap.

Think of strategy as too things - Iron and water.

By following a strategy down to the last detail is to have an "IRON" strategy.
Although if the strategy works it will be like hitting your enemy with a iron rod on the head - if you miss your enemy easily counter - as all of your strength has gone into that 1 swing.

Also "IRON" is easy to grasp - and once an enemy has laid its hands on your strategy there is no way to regather yourself and take another swing.

It is then a battle for the "iron" which could easily swing the way of your enemies favour - if you have already swung.

by following a strategy but allowing plenty of room for your own thought and instinct you have a "water" strategy.

This strategy - although appearing weak upon its first hit will not eliminate your enemy in its first hit - but instead wear them down and surrounding them - consuming them regardless of what shape their own strategy takes.

An enemy cannot "grasp" a water strategy - as it is ambigious until its first wave hits - except of course to those smart enough to be able to "read" the water.

Regardless of my own input - these strategies are top notch stuff.

Looks good. The elephants should help fighting the Scythians, other-wise they are quite useless early on.

BTW, how many denarii you spent? Persians and elephants are expensive in terms of cost and effectiveness. Have you tried it in even lower denarii game?

Ok my mistake - thought that spread out upgraded archers would be a match for horse archers, but guess thats from my experience fighting the AI when they don't use CA circle - just set up a quick test with persian horse archers against +3 weapon +2 (or +3, can't remember) xp julii archers. Archers got slaughtered and only killed 2 horse archers!
On a slightly separate note, just how do you kill horse archers? I've always assumed you either try and box them in with 2 cavalry units (tough to micromange in a big battle though), or match their firepower with archers. Just chasing after them with cavalry seems to end up with the cavalry shot to pieces eventually (although they might have a slight chance of catching them on the edge of the map), while standing still with archers ends up with the archers killed as well.

Against that i would choose an Greek army with 12 or 13 spartan hop, units, 2 or 3 onagers, and 4 or 5 archer units. I would immediately train my onagers on your onagers. If i had to move them, i would keep my hops in formation with them and the archers in very close as well. The whole counter to this relys on taking out the onagers as if they survive its game over for me. If i can take them out, i think that 12/13 units of spartans (well micromanaged) would be able to handle the arrows from the HA and archers and any charges by them, your Cat Camels, and eles. The only thing i think i would have to worry about would be the onagers,hence me taking 3 and having numerical superiority over them. This is obviously only feasible in multiplayer, and is only a theory...as ive never been up agianst it. Im sure that you will tell me why it wont work...please do.

Oh yah if they have art aim for that first, kill all the crew then the archers.

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What? These guys can kill hundreds and hundres of Romans easily. Once they go amock (if you alianate them trying to get them to) then they start killing twice as fast. Get them "in the thick" of the enemy army if you wish to let them go amock, that way they can kill the most. So ele the ele are valuable, well worth the money if used correctly.

@Envy, good analogy. Once you get very good and your playing very good people you can stray from the battle plan more and more. These tactics are best for newbies who are lost, or people just looking for somthing new and exiting.

"Good answer, good answer."

wlnoble: When you can afford such army, Parthian can take it as well (more eles, for example). Persian cavalry will take out your onagers with ease, as well as it will kill those archers. Then they (or normal archers - I tend to take some - against eles and as general morale disruption) will snipe your general. Then you will be in rather bad position - if you walk in phalanx, you will get shot to pieces by parthian onagers, if you don´t you will tire and become easy kill for elephants (or even persian cavalry/occasional cataphracts. Fresh catas can take many units just with thunderous charge).

The problem is that you can micro, right. But your opponent can do so as well - and since he is faster, he will be more succesful. If you have your phalanxes in rather wide shape, he can charge some flank, inflict casualties and run. If you walk in tighter formation, onagers are problem and if parthian sends elephants to you, they run amok and cause terrible casualties.

That´s how I would counter it, although it wouldn´t be entirely easy (I won with that against about 3 such greek armies - but my opponents did some mistakes).

the Parthian strategy is one that I find to be brilliant. It is simple, yet effective and is flexible as well. It is a good strategy to apply when outnumbered and the enemy is mainly infantry.
I was fighting a huge egyptian army that outnumbered my own and had many cavalry units. But I was able to completely annihilate all of them while my only losses came from friendly fire and the enemies archers. Horse archers work as well in the game as they did 2000 years ago.

Often when a cavalry archer heavy army I get 20 horse archers, and split them into 4 groups of 5. 1 to each side of the enemy army, you shoot them to peices.

Pyro: True, persain missle cav will take the onagers easily, however as long as i can get my spartan hops close to enough to your onagers with relative speed, they would still (probably) be able to take out the ele/heavy cav fairly easily. My general would be a spartan hop, so short of hitting him with a boulder, how would you take him out with archers ? They eat arrows for breakfast. I do understand that they tire relatively easily, but id still fancy my chances against any Parthian set up. Have you used eles against spartan hops, they dont really fare very well, especially Parthian eles.
I still think the battle would be won by the Greeks, unless your onagers took out enough men before i took yours, or got to your lines quick enough. As im sure you know, onagers are not exactly reliable/accurate unless you are not using flaming boulders. You would be fairly lucky to get 2 or 3 direct hits with flaming boulders and its questionable if they would do enough damage to stop the mighty spartans. If you didnt have flaming boulders, simular story as you may acheive a better hit ratio, but not have as many kills.

I like using HA as well, but they not particulary successfull against the greeks with thier near imunity to arrows. The archers and onagers that i would have are almost negliable in the battle really and even if your ha wiped them out, the real danger for your army remains.

Fresh Cat and Eles charging from the rear or side are indeed dangerous, however all it takes is to keep your units tight and click toward the enemy charge. Even if its at the last second and you dont actually get to turn around, the game seems to take it that you have.

IMO, any faction reliant on missles or cav will really struggle against Greece.

The onagers would be pretty much the only danger, but i have my own that might take out yours 1st (then its game over IMO) or i would have to move quickly to get in close to you. If you charged while i was doing this, i would stop, try to take out your eles, and Cats (your onagers would also be hitting your own troops) after which, once again...its game over.

this is all specualatin of course

This strategy can be used with Seleucids:

Use militia cavalry to do the job of mounted archers, catrafacts and companion to substitute camels and chariots to help the elefants.

[This message has been edited by LusitanCenturion (edited 05-26-2006 @ 01:13 PM).]

Wlnoble: Spartan hoplites seem resistant to arrows because of their 2 hit points. And they are almost invulnerable from the front, but from back or flanks, they die quite quickly, when under heavy fire. And if you run to onagers, you will get tired. Spartan hoplites are tough, but when they are tired, cavalry or elephants will kill them easily (not all of them in one charge, of course - but you can hit flanks and run).

And btw. I did one experiment - I studied effectivity of missile fire (from PC) on spartan hoplites. I got this (with shooting all 45 arrows).
Shooting at front: 8 dead spartans
Flank with shield: 10 dead spartans
Other flank: 25 dead spartans
Rear: 30 dead spartans.

Persian cavalry looks sometimes ineffective, but it is because most of people have "fire at will" on. Which isn´t really great when facing so durable opponents.
Persian cavalry is mostly fast enough to be able to shoot from good place.
Those weakened hoplites can be scared a bit by flaming arrows of archers and then routed by elephant charge (eles are a bit tired too probably as they evade spartans who run towars them).

Don´t get under impression I am trying to state that Parthia is undefeatable (although imho it can be defeated really only by Macedon, archer heavy Greece or chariot nations), I am just trying to explain my experience with greeks, just posting my opinions.

^Thank you for that data. Yes Spartans seem resistant to arrows but the truth is if you hit each Spartan once, then he'll have lost a hitpoint, even though not a single one died. Therefore once in mele it will be easier to defeat them because they only have one hitpoint now.

pyro: Same with me mate, its all opinions on here and no one can truely state something with any authority as in an actual game, things are always different. So dont worry about giving your opinions (even if i dont agree ), thats what its all about. I never take offence, but i always open my big mouth which has had my foot shoved firmly in it a couple of times.

I admit that i never favoured using Partha, so i dont know them maybe as well as i could. Your test is interesting, but once again, real game situations are a quite different.

Pyro, just to clarify...do you play online a lot. The only reason i ask is that to charge from the flanks is easy in campaign or single player, but a damn site harder in MP as they see it coming and as you correctly implied, from the front, those greek spartans are tough men.

Pity you dont play BI, we could run some 1vs1 against each other.