lol, I just asked you to make one of these in another thread.

Nice tactic, much like those in single player that I have used! Great work with the diagrams TWF!

Thanks! Try this in multiplayer-it really is hard to beat.

Ironically this is probably my dream army to fight.
I'd field my standard archer/cavalry force against it - 10 archers with upgraded weapons, 6 praetorian cavalry, 2 urban cohorts.
The archers would be spread out in a long battle line in loose formation, with 3 cavalry on either flank, and the urbans in the centre. My archers would then steadily advance, with the urbans in tseudo formation a bit infront of them (so auto fire isn't any use with your archers), and my cavalry walking carefully behind. Ideally I'd wait for an archer shootout, with my archers being able to wipe out yours with minimal losses. Once this would be achieved I'd then focus on dealing with your cavalry, and force them to attack by using my archers (causing them to leave the protection of nearby phalanxes), and then use my cavalry to charge home.

If you tried charging my archers with your cavalry I wouldn't mind - I'd have skirmish mode on so the archers wouldn't suffer massive losses before the cavalry could get there, and even if I did lose 1 or 2 units to a charge, if that meant your cavalry were then defeated (odds would be even more in my favour if your cavalry were semi-stationary when fighting archers and my cavalry charged full strength into them), then I can always afford some losses to my archers!

So by this stage, you're left usually with just your phalanxes, against a mass of archers, some cavalry (depending how many survived), and 2 urbans who I'd now have taken out of tseudo.

My normal tactic at this point is just to move my archers in 3 groups, one facing the front, one on either flank, and my cavalry poised at the flanks and behind ready to charge. Then I'd simply targed my archers at the most exposed phalanx to them (at least 1 unit of phalanx will either have their backs or their non-shield sides facing each archer unit), and wait until they die.
If you tried to charge my archers with your phalanx it'd be even easier - with skirmish mode on the archers would be very tough to catch with the phalanxes, and once isolated my cavalry could pick off individual phalanx units one by one, as could any archers not being chased.

I've never lost with this tactic against a phalanx army, and the only time I came close to losing (was very close actually!) was when I faced egypt and lost all my cavalry to their chariots.

With 10 upgraded archers and 6 praetorians though, 4 archers and 4 cavalry (who'd probably not be as tough as the praetorians either) are easy pickings for my army.
In terms of cost issues I can field the above army for 10k normally, or with the cost of an urban, an archer and a few upgrades 8k (without affecting the effectiveness of the army much).
Normally my losses are 20% or less against phalanxes, depending usually on how many cavalry+archers the enemy has.

Ahem, max 6 of a unit rule phases out the suckers who get almost all one unit. 10 archers could be chased down and destroyed by phlanxes anyways, few people are stupid enough to stand there and endure your arrows.
People all across the lobby are using the tactic and it rarely loses. The succes is shown in the numbers.

Ahem, max 6 of a unit rule phases out the suckers who get almost all one unit

How many phalanxes have you specified? 12.

Even if you've decided to use (say) 6x Armoured and 6x Militia, what's to stop the enemy chosing (say) 5x Archer Auxilia and 5x Cretans?

All he would have to do is to charge some Cav or General around at the same time you charge the main line. The Cav will be used to cause your Archers to run, and the main line will demolish your few units, while your archers run. Dont always assume that archers will do the trick. All the person would have to do is get your archers to A: Run away.
B: Rout. Then your screwed.

Exactly.^
Although you (maud) have and interesting tactic to try against this formation, armys with half archers always have and always will lose to anyone competent.
I suggest setting up a game, you could use your idea and all use my proposed setup. List a time tomarow or the next day and I'll meet you on the battlefield. I live in the eastern U.S. timezone, 5 hr. behind U.K. time.
I can play against anyone who wishes to challenge me, knowing I will use this setup (huge advantage to you knowing exactly what I'll get and how I'll setup).

Quote:

Tell that to the english. Other than that, I have no complaints. I think the formation looks and "plays" nice.

No, half archer armies are pretty good sometimes. When you don´t have them for raining arrows, but for killing troops, you can achieve good success. It is in way you use them. 10 archer units would be chased down? No way - when they shoot from good flank/back, they will kill the phalanx easily.
I know what I am talking about - I meet armies with many phalanxes every day so I know how to deal with them (hopefully) with use of archers.

Yes, solely archers will do the job slowly - it is good to have elephants or heavy cavalry to finish them - when you fire fiery arrows and then charge weakened phalanx, they rout mostly - of course when you sniped out the general earlier - but that is crucial for archer heavy armies.

If I was fighting a 10 archer army I'd form out of this into a solid, single, long battle line, crush your infantry and your cavalry. If your cavalry avoided my phalanxes I'd proceed to chasing your archers down, move my cavalry to the opposite flank of yours, chase some more archer down. The phalanxes couldn't catch the archer they just keep them running, the cavalry swarms the archers and routs them.

I thought your tactic was fine to begin with TotalWarFanatic...

Quote:

He said competant. The forces which fell to the Longbow armies were rarely led by competant men. Charging Cavalry into mud or Highlanders across fields is not exactly tactically sound. :P

I don't recall you mentioning a 6 unit limit when you started the thread, indeed you said 12 phalanxes! Its not like every multiplayer battle has a 6-unit limit either (seems much more common in my experience for a no art/no ele rule than a 6 unit cap). Even if this was the case, archer auxillaries can replace standard archers with minimal loss in firepower, while providing improvements in range and armour.

As for few people being stupid enough to stand there and endure my arrows, you're actually wrong. Most people I fight against DO stand there and try to endure the arrows. Why? Because few people are stupid enough to try and chase after archers with phalanxes!

If you try to chase down my archers with your phalanxes, you run two risks. The first is that you won't be able to have all the archers running, meaning some will be able to shoot your chasing phalanxes in the back/flank, and cause losses. The second is that my cavalry will focus on each isolated phalanx and systematically make them all rout.

If you try and make sure all my archers are taken care of by charging a phalanx after each you allow me to rout them with my cavalry easily. If you try and march as a single line with your infantry, you let me flank you with my archers (as well as cavalry).

If you try and charge towards me head on and take on my infantry, you'll lose. Why? I have cavalry superiority - 6 praetorians to just 4 of whatever greece can come up with (which lets face it isn't much!) Even if you're playing as another faction such as macedonia and have better cavalry, they still won't be able to stand up to praetorians. So, I charge your cavalry with mine (while you try and march on my infantry). Your cavalry get routed, and I then wait for you to engage my infantry before charging in to the backs of your phalanxes. Your troops rout, I win.

If you do as undefeatable suggested which (I think) is to charge some cavalry/general at my archers, I can easily take you out by diverting some of my cavalry to attack yours. Even if I lose a unit of archers it doesn't matter - I have plenty more where they came from, and you'll have just lost some/most of your cavalry +/or your general.

You're right, people all across the lobby are using this tactic, and I agree that sucecss is shown in numbers - the number of times I've beaten the people who use this tactic.
I've won countless games using my archer+cavalry setup against enemies who use phalanxes, and not one of them where the enemy's had cavalry rather than chariots have I come even close to losing.

Although I'd be happy to meet you in battle, it'll have to wait a while, as I'm currently busy with exams . you'd have a huge advantage however in knowing exactly what I'd plan to do and my response to whatever your moves would be, whereas I would only know what sort of army you would field.

I'm afraid you still haven't shown me how a competent player could beat my setup. My cavalry outnumber yours, and my archers outnumber yours. You only have more troops, and they're phalanxes who are slow and not easy to move (unless you take them out of formation, in which case they become even easier to kill). If you stay still my archers take you out. If you charge, my cavalry take you out (with the help of the urbans pinning your troops down once your cavalry are beaten. The only strength you have are your phalanxes, and any competent general will be able to take them out with archers, a couple of infantry + some cavalry.

^ If you shall react to it, then he shall react to you! See whats going on here? Its obviously going to come down to who can micromanage the best. This tactic is a good tactic, as are others anyone might suggest. Its how you perform with those tactics that make them great. Nothing is ever text book in war.

You guys should put it to a test as mentioned, and fight this out. If you cold post a battle replay, that would be great, or at least keep us informed.

All in all though, its a good tactic, and I have faith in TWF, so we shall see...

maudlin27 :: Dont underestimate the use of Phalanx. As I said before, he could charge his Cav to your archers, while this is happening, he could also charge his Phalanx with spears up, giving them more speed, allowing him to position them right behind his Cav, as they fight, most likely yours. Now your Archers are too close to fire, and are running back, but your not going to fire on your own troops! So even is you start to rout his Cav, his Phalanx by now would be in position to attack your Cav, still caught up in battle. There are many different ways it can go, so dont be so sure. Overconfidence can be a downfall.

Unde

[This message has been edited by Undefeatable (edited 06-01-2006 @ 09:39 AM).]

I will put up a battle replay with my Parthian tactic (already have that replay) and this phalanx tactic (haven't got it yet).
Anyone want to challenge me, knowing I'll use this? Any brave souls out there...it would at least provide me with a replay.

I haven't played online for ages, but it seems to me that on paper this wouldn't work against the 8 urbans, 8 praet cav, 4 scorpions that a lot of romans were using when I stopped playing. Have you used it against this setup?

this tactic is one I tried whenever i played with phalanxes (i havent played online for a while) and me having used it and lost shows that whilst it may be a decent idea (seemed fairly obvious to me) if you arent good at ordering people around you can lose with it nice and easily.

probably doesnt help that i rather dislike cav and so lose on the manoverablility front to people with a nice big stack of the things.

do many people play with rules that allow balistas and scorpians but not the onager thingys? (sort of a side topic)

Most clans play with a no art rule.
This tactic is great against Romans actually, I first used it against Romans and won big time-against a highly expierienced member of the sith clan.

Sorry TW Fanatic, but there is no easy way to tell you this.

A 3 Pikemen, 8 Cavalry, and 9 Archers army will have field day with your army(my most used setup). Please, don't rely too much on phalangites. Picking 12 of them basically means your archers will be shot to pieces(better not to have them than getting only 4), your cavalry can't do shit vs. enemy missile units due to number inferiority(only 4 cavalry?) and your slowass hoplites can't be there on time to support your cavalry or protect your fleeing archers.

Hey Maudlin, we think alike!

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 06-04-2006 @ 09:15 PM).]

lol, all the best minds think alike !
In reference to SwampRat, I'd have to say that if faced with the right army (IMO an archer+cavalry one), you would have to be a military genius or alternatively be exceptionally good at micromanaging to be able to pull off a victory. Phalanxes due to their poor maneuvability are very easy to do badly with, as they can be outflanked by cavalry + shot to pieces by archers. As you pointed out, if the enemy has cavalry superiority in the game then it will make it much harder to pull off a victory.

In terms of the no onager rule, quite a few people seem to play with a 'no art' rule (/no onager). Some people go one stage further and say 'no art/no ele', and some people even go as far as to say 'no art, no ele, no more than 4 of a unit'.
When I host I never have any restrictions however, as I feel it is a poor general who has to restrict what units the enemy can field against them in order to win. A good general should be able to manage a victory whatever the enemy fights with. Add to that the fact that I find onagers a waste of gold and easy to take care of, and I'm more than happy for people to get them if they want!

OK nobody is making you use it, I'd love to play you with my setup, you using yours, if you've got the guts to do so.

TWF :: Check out my sig, I put your tactic threads in.

Yeah I know, I saw it. To bad teh forum voting is over, i would've voted it best sig.

Damn.

My exams are finally over now so I am now able to formally accept your challenge! I live in the UK, so as you're 5 hours behind of me would 09:00 for you (14:00 GMT) tomorrow be any good?
In terms of game settings would a 10k limit be acceptable to you (given your army will consist mainly of phalanxes with some archers and a few cavalry, which can therefore be obtained much more cheaply than many armies), along with the battle on grassy flatlands (or whatever the name of the big flat grassy map is!) with calm weather?
I'd also better quickly say that in the event we do fight with our two previously mentioned forces, although I feel I will have the stronger army of the two, I also feel you're the stronger general of the two of us, so by no means feel victory is assured!
Assuming you agree to the suggested game settings do you want to host or shall I?
[edit]: Is a normal unit scale acceptable, or are you used to larger settings?
Just thinking as well, if we're both used to the settings being completely different one other option would be we play 1 game with 1 of our preferred settings, then another game with the other's preferred settings.

[Future post, as edit]:
Guess you either didn't get the message in time or chose not to face me. However, due to the popularity of this basic strategy (the phalanx one) I have had a chance to further test mine - the first enemy I faced basically tried what unde suggested, and charged cavalry at mine with his phalanxes right behind them. Unfortunately for me his force also contained spartans which certainly reduced the effectiveness of my cavalry flanking attack strategy. However I was able to take out his cavalry (with fairly heavy losses to mine however), and he then charged my archers with his phalanxes. At one point I thought he might win, as my cavalry were eventually wiped out, and although I had routed all of his, most of them had regrouped, and were still strong enough to chase after my archers. However I was able to take them out eventually, and his remaining phalanxes were soon picked off, until he was forced to retreat to a corner with a now heavily weakened unit of spartans for a final stand.

All other battles apart from that one have been incredibally easy however, even to the point where I now let the enemy have 25% more gold than me (they have 10k, I have 8k). Despite this though, I'm still finding the battles easy with my setup!

[This message has been edited by maudlin27 (edited 06-07-2006 @ 09:27 AM).]