You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Dark Ages: Roman Revival
Moderated by Terikel Grayhair

Hop to:    
loginhomeregisterhelprules
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.
283 replies, Closed
Total War Heaven » Forums » Dark Ages: Roman Revival » Original Discussion + Romano-Britons
Bottom
Topic Subject: Original Discussion + Romano-Britons
« Previous Page  1 2 3 ··· 6  Next Page »
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 26 August 2010 12:34 EDT (US)   
This is the official thread for the ambitious community modpack, Dark Ages: Roman Revival. For now, all brainstorming and ideas will go here. Here's what the mod is looking like so far:

Setting: "The year is 454 Anno Dominus. Flavius Aetius has defeated the Huns on the Catalaunian Plains, driving the Scourge of God back to the steppes from whence he came. Valentinian III is the Roman Emperor in the west, and bids his loyal general come to the capital at Ravenna to be honored. Instead of honors, Valentinian drew forth a dagger and made to plunge it into the chest of the one man who could save The Roman Empire of the West from a cataclysmic plunge into obscurity. Aetius, a warrior, plucked the dagger from the hands of the weak-kneed emperor and slew him instead, founding a new house and a chance of the Roman Empire in the West rising once again to greatness.

It will be needed. In the East, Zeno of the Eastern Romans is losing his grip. Enemies abound, outside and in. And in the deep desert to the southeast, strange stirrings arise..." - Terikel

The mod will start in 500 AD, where Aetius' leadership changed the course of the decline of Rome, allowing the empire to survive, albeit in a limited form...Their only hope is to attempt to cut back on the things that contributed to their decline in the first place, by decreasing the political power of the military, reducing corruption, and making the Roman legions the world's most feared fighting force once more. Whether they will revert to the worship of the old gods or not is unclear at this point.

Factions:

Romano-British (Roman, Christian)
Franks (Barbarian, Christian)
Visigoths (Germanic, Arian)
Saxons (Barbarian, Christian)
Alemanni (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
Burgundians (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
Western Roman Empire (Roman, Christian)
Ostrogoths (Germanic, Arian)
Illyrians (Barbarian, Christian)
Venedae (Barbarian, Arian)
Gepidae (Barbarian, Hunnic Pantheon)
Huns (Hunnic, Hunnic Pantheon)
Alans (Barbarian, Arian)
Sassanids (Eastern, Zoroastrian)
Vandals (Barbarian, Christian)
Berbers (Berber, Berber Pantheon)
Norsemen (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
Eastern Roman Empire (Roman, Christian)

2 Emergent Factions:
Copts (Eastern, Christian)
Caliphate (Eastern, Muslim)




Religion:
Zoroastrianism
Islam
Arianism
Christianity
Berber Pantheon
Germanic Pantheon
Hunnic Pantheon


Other features:


A new agent: the priest! Priests will replace diplomats, and while they will still be able to engage in diplomacy, their main purpose is spreading religion to the province they are in. There will be different types of priest (hermit, abbot, bishop, etc), each with different abilities.

The Caesarian reforms. These are where the Western Romans pull their culture back to their glory days, and tighten the belt to make their empire great once more. What we will try to do with these is put them in two stages, where, if the Romans reconquer Rome, their military moves "back a stage" and they get chain-mail clad legionaries, much like the Early Legionaries in Rome: Total War. Then, if they restore their empire to its former glory by taking Alesia, Carthage, Carthago Nova, Alexandria, and Athens, they get a second wave of reforms that allows them to get even more powerful troops, almost like the post-Marian Romans of vanilla.


Any and all suggestions/ideas are welcome from the community - remember - this is the mod of TWH. What we're looking for at this point are general suggestions. After a few days, we'll start going into specific details like faction symbols, unit rosters, etc. So - what do you want to see in this mod?
Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!

[This message has been edited by Mythic_Commodore (edited 08-26-2010 @ 12:37 PM).]

Author
Replies:
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 27 August 2010 10:54 EDT (US)     1 / 283  
Take your time to look through this thoroughly, guys and gals.

This is the basic idea so far- all the fun stuff like debating over faction symbols, unit rosters, coding, graphics, and the like is left up to the community.

It should be a fun project for everyone.

So, tighten your belts, buckle down, and join in. Everyone is welcome.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 27 August 2010 12:09 EDT (US)     2 / 283  
Looks cool!! Can't wait!! So is the religion going to be like in medieval2:total war? Obviously it's going to be different, but are there things like the pope and stuff?
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 27 August 2010 13:07 EDT (US)     3 / 283  
Well, we're thinking a model similar to in Barbarian Invasion - I think there will be two popes (one in Rome and one in Egypt), but neither of them will work like in Medieval II (no papal missions, college of cardinals, crusades, or excommunications here!).
Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 27 August 2010 14:50 EDT (US)     4 / 283  
I'll volunteer to help with the writing (text) and maybe some coding as well.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 27 August 2010 15:59 EDT (US)     5 / 283  
allthough I'm an age of empires heaven forumer, I love rome total war too. My expertise is early roman history, but I also know quite a bit about the late period. Maybe I can help with some historical accuracies (even though it's a semi-historical mod) and military/tactical advise.

Maybe you guys can also add the jewish religion?

I don't like the idea of the military reforms in their current form. There are several good reasons why the roman military system changed. The western empire lost territory to semi-independant barbarian kingdoms withing their borders. Whilst reducing income the territories still had to be defended. Rome would probably not be able to finance the old quality-army.

Roman tactics changed from heavy infantry to heavy cavalry. Most of their enemies in this period field fast, light units with bows and spears and fast cavalry. As carrhae proves, the old army was not ideally suited to fight such an army.

The scale of warfare had changed. Whilst caesar commanded several legions and fought over 100.000 enemies in some battles, this period was more defending the borders from raiders. Most of the enemies did not field large armies and Rome had to defend an very long border. Therefore they did not field one army operating in an army, but had small garrisons guarding important borders such as the rhine, with better troops located behind, whose task was to counter incursions.

And romans were a minoraty in the late roman army. Most of the soldiers were auxilia or foederati. These troops fight more like barbaric style.

The constant civil war in this period should also be taken into consideration. The empire was more weakened by enemies from withing than by enemies from outside (perhaps with the exception of attila the hun).

Anyway good luck with this mod!
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 28 August 2010 09:07 EDT (US)     6 / 283  
We thought about adding Judaism, but discarded the idea. There are a limited number of slots for religions, and while Judaism is a major religion, it only had one region where it was the major religion before the Romans took that and dispersed its adherents throughout the empire. As such, though it has numerous adherents, it had no political power and was the major religion of no land. Thus we discarded it in favor of the other, more politically powerful religions.

There were many, almost countless reasons why Rome went under. Among them was a lack of money. The Crisis of the Third Century financially weakened Rome considerably, the losses of rich areas to invaders/settlers another, plus the usurpers- each promising his soldiers higher wages if they support him, then having to pay. Legionaries cost far more, and with a shrinking budget, the Romans had to find a way to do the same job, better, but with less men. Thus the legions and deployments changed. The military had also lost much of the prestige it once had, thus recruiting became difficult. Kor could tell you the exact reasons in detail, but I will summarize it with the above, plus what you said.

The military changed to deal with these factors. They could not afford the legions as they were- too bulky, too costly. So they put up a thick defense at the border and had 'flying legions' of smaller units deployed about to rush to the hot spots.

Displaying the Romans of 450-500 in a historically accurate form would be inviting the player to command the decadent remains of a once-grand empire that is now in the toilet one turn away from being flushed- not very appealing. The reforms that will be introduced will be assumed to occur after the underlying factors have been resolved by a strong line of emperors unhindered by usurpers and able to order his realm to be strong. That gives the player a sense of goal- to bat away the hand reaching for the lever, to climb out of the toilet, and bring his realm back into the world as a proud nation once again.

That is much more appealing than being flushed in your second turn, is it not?

Warfare itself was changing somewhat, but not that much. Weapons and armor had not changed all that much (still be hand-held melee weapons for the most part, no gunpowder or other innnovations), though tactics were getting more mobile with the advent of more horses. One reason the later legions did not fare as well as the earlier ones (besides the enemy getting better, and in some cases even receiving Roman training) was the departure from the scutum/pilum/gladius combination in favor of a longer sword (not as wieldy around the shield) and less armor. These were necessary to maintain speed (lighter=faster) so the legionaries were basically turning from heavy infantry to a disciplined medium or light infantry. Of course they would be overwhelmed against more numerous foes learning to wear armor and use advanced tactics. Especially when half the force was off to the capital to make their general the new emperor...

The alternate history will assume to have those types of problems well in hand by the time the player brings Rome out of the hole- thus allowing for the reforms.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
RomulusofEpirus
Legionary
posted 28 August 2010 09:32 EDT (US)     7 / 283  
When does is this avalible?
The Dutch-Moroccan Wars
War without France would be like... World War II- Unknown
Researcher for Dark Ages: Roman Revival (now i have something to be proud of lol)
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 28 August 2010 09:40 EDT (US)     8 / 283  
When it's finished.

That will be sooner or later depending on how many people want to work on it. Work on the actual mod should officially begin in about a fortnight (probably), and we can expect it to last at least six months I'm guessing, probably more. It depends how much we want to do and how much we can do as well.

Mythic, I'm in for campaign map work and historical advice on the Romano-British, Gaels (if that works out), Saxons and WRE.

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 08-28-2010 @ 09:43 AM).]

Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 28 August 2010 10:14 EDT (US)     9 / 283  
@Terikel Grayhair: You're right about Judaism. If there's a limit to religion this is indeed a good one to leave out.

If the financial/political situation of Rome had changed enough to the better, those reforms would fit better.

Still I disagree on the tactical changes. They appear to be quite big. But perhaps you can make a mixture of the heavy cavalry and light units from the late period combined with the elite heavy infantry from the early imperial/marian period? That would combine the strong battlefield army with the units required fro countering raiders/rebelions and such.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 28 August 2010 12:57 EDT (US)     10 / 283  
We have the idea to make some changes- that's why we would like as many people's inputs as possible.

I too think a total roll-back would be inappropriate. The Romans were, after all, practical people. They would revive what worked, but leave dead what did not. We might have to mod the 'new' legionaries to throw plumbata instead of the pilum- the plumbata had a longer range and better penetration, though it lost the ability to render a pierced shield useless with its hanging , broken body. And cavalry- though the old Romans were heavy infantry, they discovered the need (often in painful ways) that cavalry was a necessary arm to have.

The exact units that will come available at the reforms are up for discussion. Your input is welcome, especially in deciding unit rosters and the like. Welcome aboard!
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 28 August 2010 14:15 EDT (US)     11 / 283  
Ok, but I like to keep my input small. I'm working on the first total modification for aoe1 myself. I'm not going to do any modding, but I do like to give advise, and of course playtest a little. I just don't have the time to do more, sorry.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 28 August 2010 14:56 EDT (US)     12 / 283  
Even if your input is little more than pointing out where we are being stupid (and why, of course), it will be much appreciated!
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
PukyMan
Legionary
posted 28 August 2010 17:12 EDT (US)     13 / 283  
Im really interested in this mod but as i dont know anything about modding i guess there is no chance for me to be involved in the mod. Anyways good luck! Cant wait to download and play the mod! If i can help somehow pls let me know.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 28 August 2010 17:42 EDT (US)     14 / 283  
Hey, PukyMan! Welcome to Total War Heaven!

If you go to the RTW Heaven homepage, the latest news item contains this little snippet:

Quoted from Mythic:

Have you ever wanted to learn to mod, but never gotten around to it? Now is your opportunity to be involved in a major mod project with the rest of the TWH community! We will need people of all talents - believe me when I say that no matter where your skills may lie, even if you have no experience whatsoever with mods, we will welcome you onto the team and you will be a part of this mod. Historians, artists, coders, playtesters, even people who are just good at coming up with ideas - you will all find a place in the Community Modpack.
Anyone who wants can help. All contributions of whatever nature are welcome.
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 28 August 2010 20:39 EDT (US)     15 / 283  
Yes, anyone and everyone who wants to help is more than welcome. The more people in the community who join us, even if they're just contributing ideas, but especially if they want to learn to mod, the better the mod we'll end up making. To anyone reading this now, we can use your skills, and we'd love to have you. As a community, we have to make this mod ours and all contribute if it's really going to be great.
Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
PukyMan
Legionary
posted 29 August 2010 07:35 EDT (US)     16 / 283  
If it is so i would love to help you make this mod! I dont know what job should i take because my internet keeps on crashing and i lose connection, so i wont be able to download anything.Hmm...
You might won the battle, but not the war!
ElephantLord
Legionary
posted 29 August 2010 07:50 EDT (US)     17 / 283  
I would like to help even though like pukyman I don't know if I have any skills that would be helpful.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 29 August 2010 22:35 EDT (US)     18 / 283  
Good luck with this, it'll be quite interesting to see how it turns out. Especially as I'm actually working (if somewhat sporadically) on a 500AD campaign myself, although it seems we're heading down rather different tracks.
PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Rinster
Legionary
posted 30 August 2010 13:40 EDT (US)     19 / 283  
I'm assuming that this is only windows?
I feel so isolated having a mac...

and also I can help in a non-modding way like ideas/history or stuff like that but not playtester...
dang.

[This message has been edited by Rinster (edited 08-30-2010 @ 01:47 PM).]

PukyMan
Legionary
posted 30 August 2010 14:40 EDT (US)     20 / 283  
i gota idea! I could be a youtube supporter! The game tester could record a couple of videos and send it to me. i will cut some parts and make an youtube video!
You might won the battle, but not the war!
Andalus
Legionary
posted 30 August 2010 15:50 EDT (US)     21 / 283  
I'm assuming that this is only windows?
I feel so isolated having a mac...
I believe that it is possible to run mods on a Mac version of RTW, but it is not as simple and I personally don't know how (not having any experience with macs).
and also I can help in a non-modding way like ideas/history or stuff like that
Naturally. That's what a community mod is for, after all! I'm sure there will be plenty of details where the ideas and opinions of the community are necessary.

[This message has been edited by Andalus (edited 08-30-2010 @ 03:52 PM).]

Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 30 August 2010 22:24 EDT (US)     22 / 283  
Yeah, everyone is welcome to contribute ideas and if you want to learn to mod, we can give you simple tasks in areas that you're interested into build up your skills. Speaking of ideas, let's start brainstorming on the Romano-British.

Heraldry
As you can tell from the map, I was thinking a pale red would be a good primary color for the Romano-British (like a diluted Rome). Gold would probably be the secondary color, after all, they're still Roman! For a symbol, we can probably use the same symbol as the other Roman factions; either a Chi-Rho (the P-over-x used in default BI) or am eagle. Of course, none of the heraldry is fixed at this point. Should we, perhaps, go a BI route and give them a blue color and a unique symbol? Or should we do something completely new with them?

Starting Position
What alliances and wars should they have at the start of the game? What about the family tree? How many denarii should they have?

Roster
The BI Romano-British roster was heavy on infantry, with a mix of Roman and Barbarian troops. How can we update the roster to reflect the 150-year time difference between BI and DA:RR? Should they be affected by the Caesarian Reforms? For reference, the default BI roster is:

Infantry
Peasants
Archers
Foederati Infantry
Bucellarii
Coastal Levies
British Legionaries
Monks

Cavalry
Sarmatian Auxilia
Graal Knights
Warlord

Artillery
Onagers
Heavy Onagers
Ballistae
Repeating Ballistae

Ships
Bireme
Trireme
Quinquireme


What can we do to make the Romano-British as good as they can be in this mod? Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 31 August 2010 01:49 EDT (US)     23 / 283  
Historically, the Romano-British are supposed to have had a dragon standard. That is one of the underlying reasons why the English chose St George as their patron saint- he slew a Dragon (the symbolism is obvious). So I would suggest a dragonhead emblem.

Unitwise, I would ditch foederati- many of them then are causing the woes now- I doubt the RB would keep them around. Likewise, Sarmatians- they would have been pulled out with the rest of the Romans 90 years before our mod. And Graal Knights? Maybe. More fantasy than real, but a nice heavy cav for the British (Ambrosius and Arturius were supposedly heavy cavalrymen- the main striking force of their army) is necessary.

There would also be some tribal levies about- untrained, but willing to fight.


EDIT: Let's continue with RB here, but each other faction get's its own thread.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 08-31-2010 @ 02:01 AM).]

Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 31 August 2010 03:50 EDT (US)     24 / 283  
Historically, the Romano-British are supposed to have had a dragon standard. That is one of the underlying reasons why the English chose St George as their patron saint- he slew a Dragon (the symbolism is obvious). So I would suggest a dragonhead emblem.
Absolutely. I was going to say that.

Terikel mentioned Ambrosius and Arturius. I do think having Arthur Pendragon as a family member would be an awesome idea; there could be unique retinue objects/characters like Excalibur and Merlin and such, which would give the faction a brilliant mythological dimension. I think Vortigern, a character I would also like to see, was dead by 450, so we can leave him out safely, despite him being the logical choice for a faction leader.

I do think it is important to focus not just on the Roman side of the Romano-British; the Romanised province after all has been overrun by the Saxons, and the West Country, Cumbria and Wales, even today, retain a decidedly "Celtic" culture (due mostly to revival, but whatever). Thus they will have a few Roman units, but mostly British ones with bits of whatever arms and armour are available.

They should also have a few units of Saxon foederati on their side. I am convinced that not all the Saxons (who had been fighting for the Romans in Britain since the third century) were on the same side; even if I'm wrong, it's another great storyline.

The population of both their territories should be quite small; no more than 6000 put together. Their capital should be at Isca Augusta in SE Wales, better known by this time as Castra Legionis (or Caerllion in modern Welsh), but we could if we want move it to a mythical place called Celli Wig in Cornwall (Camuli Vicus in Latin?), which is where the earliest Welsh tales place Camelot...

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 08-31-2010 @ 03:52 AM).]

Seneca Monachus
Legionary
posted 31 August 2010 06:04 EDT (US)     25 / 283  
i think the Romano British should start with very low denari (the Saxons stole those) But i think their starting teritory should be londinium, where the influence of the Romans was the biggest.

bit of-topic but i registered on the forum specially for this mod, it looks interesting
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 31 August 2010 06:24 EDT (US)     26 / 283  
And very welcome you are, Seneca.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 31 August 2010 06:29 EDT (US)     27 / 283  
By the time of this mod though, Londinium had been basically abandoned. Mythic, it probably shouldn't have its own province... It was first reoccupied on a significant scale only around the mid-ninth century.

I agree on the low denarii front though. No way the Romano-Britons would have had much money in the wild wet uplands of Wales.
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 31 August 2010 14:20 EDT (US)     28 / 283  
EDIT: Let's continue with RB here, but each other faction get's its own thread.
Good idea. Do we have to apply for a subforum? :-P
Mythic, it probably shouldn't have its own province...
Understood. Would it still be a Saxon provincial capital, or was it not even that important?

Overall, I definitely like the idea of "Celting" the RB. In BI, at least to me, they seemed Roman with a hint of Celt. Now, especially with the lack of a true Celtic faction, I think it's especially important that we give them a bit more Celtic flavor. However, will we have the RB become slightly more Roman once the Caesarian reforms go through and the Roman culture becomes more attractive once more?

By the way, tapping into the mythology of the British Isles is, in my opinion, very important if we want a fun and unique RB faction. There's such a beautiful culture woven into the myth that we would be foolish to ignore (another advantage to not being strictly historical).
Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 31 August 2010 14:59 EDT (US)     29 / 283  
If I remember right, one of the main Saxon towns was Ipswich (Isca something or other) in northern Norfolk. Edorix is right about Londinium being worthless then- it took at least seven or eight centuries for it to fully recover after Boudicca's forces ravaged the town and burnt it down.

Don't be so hasty to dismiss northern Wales as a piss-poor area- there were a lot of tin mines in that area back in the day, and tin was very necessary to make bronze. They also supplied wool. They wouldn't be rich by any means, but they did have some wealth. Why do you think the Romans took the island in the first place?

If we are going to add historical/mythological persons, Ambrosius and Artorius are musts. And for the Saxon Family Member in England, use Hengist. He had a son, Octa, who took over after him for a few months before he too died in battle.

As for a forum for this- we have to wait and see how many threads we make here first. Too many necessary ones cluttering up this forum warrants its own forum. When that happens, I will be honored to create the new forum. Until then, we work here. Deal?
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 08-31-2010 @ 03:01 PM).]

Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 31 August 2010 15:28 EDT (US)     30 / 283  
However, will we have the RB become slightly more Roman once the Caesarian reforms go through and the Roman culture becomes more attractive once more?
I think the opposite; what Roman aspects they do have should become fewer, after all that's what historically happened.

As for Londinium, I am looking at a map of Britain in the early sixth century... I think yes, it is the best candidate for provincial capital.
If I remember right, one of the main Saxon towns was Ipswich (Isca something or other) in northern Norfolk. Edorix is right about Londinium being worthless then- it took at least seven or eight centuries for it to fully recover after Boudicca's forces ravaged the town and burnt it down.
Not at all true; it became provincial capital of Britain after her revolt remember. The archaeology shows some three centuries of prosperity, then decline and near-abandonment. As for Ipswich, it is in Suffolk, and it only really began to emerge in the eighth century.


Don't be so hasty to dismiss northern Wales as a piss-poor area- there were a lot of tin mines in that area back in the day, and tin was very necessary to make bronze. They also supplied wool. They wouldn't be rich by any means, but they did have some wealth. Why do you think the Romans took the island in the first place?
Copper mines in North Wales; tin mines in Cornwall. They took the island in the first place cos Claudius needed to look like a conquering hero.

However, it is true that we shouldn't overlook North Wales; it has another good candidate for provincial capital of Western Britain, at the legendary fortress of Dinas Emrys (Ambrosius's stronghold).

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 08-31-2010 @ 03:41 PM).]

ElephantLord
Legionary
posted 31 August 2010 18:45 EDT (US)     31 / 283  
I don't know much about it, but I am wondering would the Romano-British be christian at this time or would they have their own pantheon with like The Morrigan and stuff.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 01 September 2010 00:42 EDT (US)     32 / 283  
Historically, the Romano-British are supposed to have had a dragon standard. That is one of the underlying reasons why the English chose St George as their patron saint- he slew a Dragon (the symbolism is obvious). So I would suggest a dragonhead emblem.
and also later the flag of Wessex during the 9th century Danish invasions was also a Green Dragon on a white field. so a dragon standard for the Romano-British would be very matching indeed. though wessex was saxon but i'm just saying
I don't know much about it, but I am wondering would the Romano-British be christian at this time or would they have their own pantheon with like The Morrigan and stuff.
according to personal reading and wiki, there is some degree of revival in the old religion ever since the Romans left. Religious squabbling between Christians and pagans was not uncommon amongst the Britons, sometimes to the advantage of the foreign Saxons. A people divided between the old ways and the new, i'd say.

and i'm eager to help, by mostly inputting some history whenever appropriate and helpful to the general flow
statement: absolutely zero knowledge on modding

and here's a map of 540AD Britain
"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-01-2010 @ 01:04 AM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 01:45 EDT (US)     33 / 283  

Quoted from me:

If I remember right, one of the main Saxon towns was Ipswich
I wasn't remembering right. I can't remember the name of the bloody place, but it was somewhere north. Another was Dubris (Dover), but that was in Kent to the south.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 01 September 2010 03:58 EDT (US)     34 / 283  
em.. from the campaign map it looks like the Romano British part is just one big slab of a province. that's not true.... is that? o.O
"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 04:00 EDT (US)     35 / 283  
Nice catch- maybe we should break it into two- Powys or Cymru for the north, and Dumnonia for the south?
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 01 September 2010 04:10 EDT (US)     36 / 283  
Two would be good, three would be great if the map is big enough for proper slicing. afterall the more regions can only mean a more epic saxon-briton war.

Dumnonia, totally agree! who else? maybe we could give them Aquae Sulis or Glevum, but i'm not sure if Glevum was actually Dumnonian.

Powys was definitely a major player. but what city? and what about Rheged and Elmet?
"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 04:24 EDT (US)     37 / 283  
Deva for the Welsh province.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 01 September 2010 04:31 EDT (US)     38 / 283  
just like old times. and dumnonia?
"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 05:24 EDT (US)     39 / 283  
Isca Dumnoniorum, of course!
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 01 September 2010 06:46 EDT (US)     40 / 283  
That will not do.

Chester and Exeter were important, but both lack mythology. Instead of Deva, use Isca Silurum for Wales (only we'll call it something slightly different). It is a strong contender for the mythical Camelot, and it was more important than Chester anyway. For the Southern part, I'd go with Cornovallia rather than Dumnonia maybe... if you don't like Celli Wig I suppose Exeter is the logical choice.

I am rather against the idea of splitting up Britain any further though; if we do that we'll have to split up the Saxon province as well to keep it balanced there, and then dozens of other provinces elsewhere to keep the game balanced and not make Britain too important. I'd keep it as one province and have the capital at Caerllion (Isca Silurum).
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 07:28 EDT (US)     41 / 283  
Deva was a Roman city- it would be important to the RB- who, after all, were as proud of their Roman heritage as their Brythonic.

I would split RB into two province, but leave the Saxon portion as one (excepting Londinium as its own- might want to remove that)- the Saxons have three or so provinces on the mainland, while the RB have just the one. They lose that one province and they're gone... making all of this moot.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 01 September 2010 07:48 EDT (US)     42 / 283  
Isca Silurum was also a Roman city, and a more important one; it also has the advantage of having Brythonic legends surrounding it however, and is in Wales, a more traditionally considered Brythonic place, today. Therefore it combines both Roman and Dark Age Brythonic excellently. The most important thing though is it's association with Camelot; if the faction leader is Ambrosius/Emrys and his heir is Arturus/Arthur, surely a place associated with the Camelot legend would be the best capital?
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 01 September 2010 07:58 EDT (US)     43 / 283  
excuse my lack of expertise Edorix but why would Cornovallia be a superior candidate over Dumnonia? on mythic grounds, Arthur certainly had some Dumnonian connections.
"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 01 September 2010 08:35 EDT (US)     44 / 283  
We're all amateurs here, General. I have no expertise either.

I prefer Cornovallia because, again, it has a stronger "celtic" connection today. The other reason is that the Celli Wig Camelot candidate from the Welsh texts I keep mentioning was in Cornwall not Devon. Ultimately it makes little difference, but I like being controversial.

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-01-2010 @ 08:49 AM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 08:55 EDT (US)     45 / 283  
I've checked them both.

Deva Victrix was the castrum of first the II Adiutrix and then the XX Valeria Victrix, hence its name.

Isca Silurum (also known as Isca Augusta) was the home of the II Augusta.

The medieval legends concerning Caerleon and such are based on two martyrs being executed under Diocletian's purges. They have chapels to them springing up in medieval times in Isca Silurum, based on older writings (by Bede and Nennius) saying the men were martyred in the 'City of the Legions.' Nennius has a jaded reputation- much of his work was far less careful than Bede, who himself relied on even older manuscripts. Since most of the 'evidence' for Augusta comes from Nennius, I would tend to look further than just taking his word that Caerleon was Augusta. Especially with this quote from the wiki Caerleon post:

Quoted from wiki:

The city of Chester was also historically called Caerleon.
Mainly because both cities were known as the City of the Legions! And more infrastructure (baths, etc) have been uncovered at Deva Victrix than at Augusta, leaving scholars to debate whether the Romans were planning on making the place the capital. It was strategically better placed- able to fend off Irish intruders, serve as a springboard to invade Hibernia as Agricola may have intended, was closer to the Scots border, and able to support the garrison of the Wall if needed... And it had a port.

On top of that, a battle was fought between Saxon invaders and the Romano-British outside of Deva. It is said that is where Hengest, the Saxon leader, met his end, and his son driven back to Eburacum (York). Both cities would be likely targets of a Saxon surge, but both were well-sited fortresses. Augusta was closer to the Saxons- so why did they try to swing north towards Deva? Must have been some kind of strategic target...

Thus I would go with Deva.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 01 September 2010 08:57 EDT (US)     46 / 283  
I know only very little.
as valued as modesty is as a trait, that's kind of a overstatement

well i only challenged Cornvallia because i hadn't heard about the place at all, whereas Dumnonia seemed like a Romano-British icon..
"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 09:12 EDT (US)     47 / 283  
As for splitting the Saxon part...

I saw it already is split- Londinium and the rest.

Would it be better to remove Londinium as a separate entity, and make Cantii a separate one? There was a well-established Saxon kingdom there in those days, whereas as pointed out a few posts above, Londinium was still in the process of recovering after Boudicca's rape of the place.

Idea?

EDIT: How is this for a faction description/history:

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Long ago, we were once our own people, split into warring tribes who fought across this island of ours. Many reaped glory and honor, and many cattle were taken as prizes. Our gods demanded blood and sacrifice, and we gave it freely!

Then the Romani came. They conquered our warring tribes one by one, and rebuilt from the ravaged wreckage a shining island upon which men could gaze and wonder. Men did this, and that gaze turned them to envy- and they came in their longboats by the thousands, only to be met by steel and iron and cast back into the waves.

We too were not immune to seeking glory and fortune across the water. Our men followed the legions across, to seek the Imperial Purple for our Commander. Yet like the Sea Wolves, we too tasted defeat on foreign shores, and returned to our island.

The Romani left four hundred and ten years after the Birth of their God, as they reckon time. There were troubles on the continent, and the Legions were needed there. This time we did not follow. We were left on our own, to decide our own fate.

The Sea Wolves came shortly thereafter. One of our tribal lords had asked them to fight for him. This the Sea Wolves did, and destroyed that leader’s foes. Then they demanded as payment much of the land they had craved from long ago- including land which did not even belong to that tribe. The leader refused, and war began.

There was almost peace between us and the Wolves. There was a conference, a peace conference. Three hundred of our nobles met three hundred of theirs, to discuss sharing our island. They sat side by side, a Sea Wolf and a Briton by each other, alternating, so that each may get to know the other better. None were to bring arms. Yet at a toast by their chieftain, the Sea Wolves drew from their boots hidden daggers and plunged them into the breast of the Briton to his left.

In that awful night we lost three hundred of our highest noblemen, and learned that there can be no peace between us and the Sea Wolves. They come for land, for our blood, and only total domination of our island would satisfy them. Thus we fight, we Romano-British, and we fight to survive.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 09-01-2010 @ 09:39 AM).]

Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 01 September 2010 09:28 EDT (US)     48 / 283  
I suppose you also want Isca as the name for Exeter since you want to split the Romano-British province...

So you're looking at Deva/Cambria and Isca/Dumnonia, and I'm looking at Caer Leion/Britannia Occidentalis. If we do end up including Dumnonia I'd agree that Caer Leion would be unsuitable as it's too close, but I still wouldn't go with Deva; I'd still want something decidedly Welsh as a capital for what is largely Wales, preferably something behind or in the Cambrian Mountains to make it harder to find and thus capture. That's where Dinas Emrys would be ideal; as it's mythical we can put it wherever we want.

The problem with splitting the Saxon part is that at this stage they basically only controlled Kent, Essex and East Anglia. That's basically one province, whatever you want to split up. If we divide Southern Britain into four provinces in total, I'd make one rebel between Anglia and Cymru (Venta Castra ie Venta Belgarum/Winchester), or towards the North (Ebrauc ie Eburacum/York). After all Britain at this time was hardly a place of unified states.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 01 September 2010 09:41 EDT (US)     49 / 283  

Quoted from wiki:

The city of Chester was also historically called Caerleon.
Repeated from above.
|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Seneca Monachus
Legionary
posted 01 September 2010 09:46 EDT (US)     50 / 283  
However, will we have the RB become slightly more Roman once the Caesarian reforms go through and the Roman culture becomes more attractive once more?
In the middle ages the Welsh were known for their longbows.
Altough archery does not appear to have been especially significant in pre Norman Conquest Anglo-Saxon warfare and the first great English archery victory was the Battle of the Standard in 1138.

But maybe we can put an kind of welsh bowman as pre-form for the longbowmen after the reforms?
« Previous Page  1 2 3 ··· 6  Next Page »
Total War Heaven » Forums » Dark Ages: Roman Revival » Original Discussion + Romano-Britons
Top
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register
Hop to:    
Total War Heaven | HeavenGames

Copyright © 1997–2024 HeavenGames LLC. All rights reserved.
v2.5.0