I know that they are infantry centered, but maybe add in a basic all-around cavalry that is not particuarly good at much, except for being cavalry...
like herdsman or something akin to that.

[This message has been edited by Rinster (edited 09-20-2010 @ 03:53 PM).]

I think we should add a fourth tier ship(longboat), and possibly large Longboats from a final tier pagan temple relating to the god of the sea(Im not good with scandanavian gods). As for land units go, defianatly agree with more axe(throwing) units.

Woodsmen(whatever wel call them)
Primary weapon- throwing axe- Armor Peirceing
Secondary weapon- longsword- 4.5 ft
left hand- sheild- round 1.2 ft diameter
Armor- lacks armor

Chosen Woodsmen(other name?)
Primary weapon- throwing axe- Armor Peirceing
Secondary weapon- wider longsword- 5 ft
left hand- sheild- round 1.6 Ft diameter
Armor- chain, helmet.

Beserker(name?)
can go beserk
Primary weapon- 2h claymore style- Armor peirceing 5.5 ft
armor?

Axe Cavalry(name?)
skirmisher cav
Primary weapon- throwing axe- Armor peirceing
Secondary weapon- axe or spear(I wish they had halberds in 500)

Faction symbol:



Naval
Boats
Warships (Large Boats renamed)
Pirate Longships
Drakkars (a kinda chosen longship-type thing )

No more cavalry units; replace existing if we have any good ideas. More infantry: huscarls.

My two bob.

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-20-2010 @ 05:25 PM).]

Hearth Troops being succeeded by Huscarls would be the main move I think off the top of my head. Axemen perhaps, too...

Axe cavalry could replace the Nobles if you want. You have to admit my other units are good. What is that supposed to be(refering to that picture), Its looks intresting and mysterious at the same time.

[This message has been edited by AugustusCaesar (edited 09-20-2010 @ 07:25 PM).]

Pehaps have a Seax unit? Maybe replace the Barbarians peasants with Seax Infantry or maybe a low tier swordsmen unit? It would be a shame to not have their famed blade amongst their infantry.


And as for the faction symbol, perhaps crossed daggers or this helmet?



And I'm all for expanding their naval powers. They were known for being pirates (at least in earlier days)

they must have a seax unit. it gave them their name.

Kind of against the Axe cavalry unit... It was in the Frankish rosters already, and I see no reason to make it a Saxon unit as well.

For Saxon cavalry, at most they would have a light cavalry unit for chasing down routing enemies.

What is that thing? a torque?

Many sources agree that the Saxons were seax-wielding, axe-throwing infantrymen who came by sea under their horsetail standards.

That kind of settles it for me. We will need seax warriors who throw axes, preference to seaborne invasion set to Yes, and a horsetail standard/symbol.

Levy Spearmen seem keepable, as they're pretty much like the basic unit for most Germanic factions.

Seemed to me most Saxon warriors prefer fighting in the shield wall, only mounting when traveling or hunting down routing foes. We should make the Saxons very strong in infantry, but almost completely rubbish in cavalry. The missile department will be so-so. (spear-throwers, axe-throwers, I don't know...)

I like the Seax unit. I would call them Seax Warriors. Axe-throwing Seax Warriors in a shield wall sound awesome. I'm assuming we are gonna let them have the shield wall ability because that's where the seax can be most effective.

The Norse god of winds, sea and fire is Njord. A Top-tier religious building to Njord should grant the Drekkar unit Edorix suggested.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-21-2010 @ 04:13 AM).]

I think that the saxons should not be able to horde, but should gain a huge economical bonus if they take the british isles (since they did historically) and that way they are kinda "hoarding" there to get a bonus. They need to be almost primarily infantry as you don't hear stories of Vikings on horseback, Vikings and saxons were known for being brutes, they were big, strong and showed their strength with huge weapons that ripped and tore at people when they hit, I think the Calvary needs to be taken to primarily light, and the leaders fight on the ground (not sure if it possible) I will try to find some historical stuff about the Saxons, may take me a couple of days

I seem to also remember things like the fact swords were reserved for the upper class of warriors (Huscarls?), as they were the mark of a true warrior, everyone else being spears or axes.

Vikings and the Saxons invading the RB were not contemporaries. The similarity ends with infantry-based armies and axes.

Saxons of the time should be able to hoard. we need to program them to attempt a migration to Britannia, but able to hoard if necessary. They were nowhere near as settled as the Franks, who adopted many Roman ways.

Rugged, low-tier infantry to start with, better armor and formations (and more expensive) as time goes by. Crap cavalry- light cav only, no missiles (except thrown axes). Archers, but not many and nowhere near as good as what went before (Cretans, CHosens, etc)

If we must have an axe-throwing light cavalry unit again for the Saxons, then we must. But I suggest naming them something different to avoid repetition. How about Outriders, in the sense that these horsemen would ride out before the main foot army to recon the neighboring hills and terrain for possible dangers and look for good camping positions.

Primarily scouts, more or less, but Outriders sound cooler and more professional, unlike scouts which remind me too much of boy scouts

I seem to also remember things like the fact swords were reserved for the upper class of warriors (Huscarls?), as they were the mark of a true warrior, everyone else being spears or axes.

True. Houscarls or Huscarls, BTW?

Archers, but not many and nowhere near as good as what went before (Cretans, CHosens, etc)

Agree. Remember that the Saxons will be going up against the RB and their Cambrian Longbowmen. While I'd love to see the RB really kicking some Saxon ass with their arrows, we should keep balancing in mind when we design the Saxon roster. I think proper archers, some spear-throwers and axe-throwers should do the trick.

EDIT: The Saxons couldn't horde in vanilla. If they can now, I fear it'll be too easy for them to overwhelm Britain. Keep in mind that the Saxon conquest of Britain was a process of decades and centuries, not merely 5 turns.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-21-2010 @ 05:40 AM).]

In history, they did not horde, but they did migrate. Some remained, some invaded. Many peoples were on the move in those days.

Maybe we can make them more inclined towards sea-borne invasions and attacks, as suggested above. (Saxons going viking sounds...orgasmic!!) Is that enough, or do we still need hording to seal the deal?

Quoted from wiki
The caste structure was rigid; in the Saxon language the three castes, excluding slaves, were called the edhilingui (related to the term aetheling), frilingi, and lazzi. These terms were subsequently Latinised as nobiles or nobiliores; ingenui, ingenuiles, or liberi; and liberti, liti, or serviles. According to very early traditions which probably contain a good deal of historical truth, the edhilingui were the descendants of the Saxons who led the tribe out of Holstein and during the migrations of the sixth century. They were a conquering, warrior elite. The frilingi represented the descendants of the amicii, auxiliarii, and manumissi of that caste, while the lazzi represented the descendants of the original inhabitants of the conquered territories, who were forced to make oaths of submission and pay tribute to the edhilingui.

Maybe we can make the stable/barracks/archery range something completely different for the Saxons.
We could make them training grounds for the three castes.
for example: the edhilingui (nobles)exist of heavy infantry, medium cavalry and are trained in the noble hall (stable building) they cost a lot to train and maintain.
the frilingi are light cavalry, medium infantry and archers. They cost less than the edhilingui and are trained at the warriors hall (archery range building)
The Lazzi are light infantry and low lvl skirmishers. With maybe AOR units from other factions to represent the orininal inhabitants. These people are trained at a muster field.

Just a suggestion.

On the other hand i think the Saxons, as seafaring people, should get a unit recruited from the port.
Finally i think we should watch not giving Norse units to the Saxons. Huscarls were Norse nobles.

edit: as faction symbol i think a tree is better, reffering to the Irminsul, a holy site of the Saxons.

[This message has been edited by Seneca Monachus (edited 09-21-2010 @ 08:37 AM).]

Huscarls are the same as housecarls- carl meaning man. They were the hangers-on of noblemen and kings- their trained elite fighting men. Every Germanic tribe/federation had them, just by different names. The Franks called them Trustes, the Norse huskarls. The Roman equivalent was Praetorians. So they are fine.

I would object to giving Viking-like warriors to the Saxons- they two fought in entirely different ways, with different weapons, and very different tactics. And with other strategic goals in mind.

One thing I read somewhere about the Saxons invading Britannia- most had good chainmail armor, better than the British who had Roman ways. Can someone confirm or deny this?

A Saxon military caste system sounds as revolutionary and appealing to me as the Frankish infantry-to-cavalry transition, though the draft model by Seneca does need some revisions, and we need to be very careful not to make it too messy.

So basically under this model, we divide the Saxon military into three "levels", representing different units recruited from the three different castes of Saxon society at the time, recruitable from the respective caste building.

But before looking deeper into this model, let's see what everybody think about it first...

Here are suggestions for the Faction titles:
Bretwalda for Faction Leader, and Aetheling for Faction Heir. Could we mod the title for normal Saxon family members such that they appear as Ealdorman Cerdic, Ealdorman Ealdwulf, etc, instead of the usual "General"?

_{And what about hording?}

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-21-2010 @ 10:04 AM).]

Drop the horde idea. It's completely out of place.

The faction symbol I proposed is actually nothing but a belt-buckle. However, it is the belt-buckle of an extremely rich man (we're talking the equivalent of five thousand pounds for this belt-buckle). By the way, a faction may horde, but this is a hoard. Schoolboy spelling error.

Terikel, what's this about horse-hair standards? Need it refer to an actual design on the flag or could it simply be decoration of the actual shaft?

Bretwalda and Aetheling are both good methinks: lets not worry about Ealdorman though... it's boring if everyone has it, and we'd have to have a trait for "general" as well.

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-21-2010 @ 12:46 PM).]

I like the helmet as a faction symbol, personally.

Seneca's idea of dividing the Saxons into castes rather than unit types is just the sort of twist we need - I guess we would just call their AOR barracks the muster field. The other alternative would be to give the Saxons four separate sets of Lazzi troops (Europe, the North, Mediterranean, Desert)? and make it kind of a semi-AOR thing where different regions yield different troop types. This method allows for better detail and is my preferred method - but we use more unit slots that way. One other suggestion - could we make the Huscarls an elite infantry general's bodyguard? The Saxons were lacking in unit variety in standard BI, but that looks to not be a problem here. Keep it up, guys!

EDIT: Keep in mind that the faction titles will have to (due to engine limitations) be appended to the end of the character's name rather than the beginning (ie Aethelstan King rather than King Aethelstan) This method sounds a little more antiquated, which adds to the feel, but we have to be careful to make sure that our titles make grammatical sense.

[This message has been edited by Mythic_Commodore (edited 09-21-2010 @ 02:55 PM).]

Historically, Huscarls would a good choice for a Saxon general's bodyguard. Saxons rarely fought on horseback and commanders would often have Huscarls with them, these Huscarls swore an oath, never to retreat in battle. Giving them some sort of 'unbreakable' trait would be accurate, but may not have a good effect on game balancing

We could make them slightly weaker than an ordinary bodyguard (although, being an infantry bodyguard, they already are somewhat weaker right off the bat) or perhaps have only 1 hit point (normal bodyguards have 2). The problem with this is that then Saxon generals will not develop cowardly traits (which would be cool but possibly also unbalanced). If we really wanted to make unbreakable bodyguards, we would have to code the Saxon cowardly traits in separately so that a Saxon general has a chance of becoming cowardly after a loss in battle instead of after running in battle. Certainly an interesting idea, though.

Huscarls had 1 2-handed axe, but if all infantry units should be able to form shield wall (nearly all did, historically), an armour-piercing 1-handed axe and a round shield should do the trick

is there any evidence of axe throwing cavalry, it sounds cool. I'm not arguing here just never heard of it before.

Axe-throwing cavalry probably did not exist in significant numbers in history, but since we want to include new and "ridiculously awesome" units for the new mod, they are exactly what we are looking for. Plus, it's probably very common for raiders to throw spears and axes at innocent farmers and other poor folk at the time.

I could tell you a very funny story concerning a sleeping Viking, an early rooster, and an axe.

But I won't. Use your imagination.

I don't know terikel... My imagination says that some one tried to chop off the vikings head, but the axe got stuck in his beard. The viking gets angry and goes on a violent rampage. However then out of nowhere a mutated roster flies out of a butcher shop and kills him with his lazer eyes.
end

I was thinking more the rooster woke the Viking up, who in a sleepy rage, picked it up (thinking it was the axe) and used it to slice the axe clean in two.

Since then the two were inseparable. Tales were sung about Ragnor and his Chickenblade, their noble deeds, and how they eventually sailed west, found the new world, and founded Disneyland.

So you heard that one too?

Terikel, remember you don't need to be posting here at 6:45 AM. Spare us EoJ's bad jokes and potentially a few roosters.

Ahem. Saxons.

chickenblade...let's make that another easter egg - "This is the famous personal blade of Ragnor the Fearless"

Quoted From Edorix:
lets not worry about Ealdorman though... it's boring if everyone has it, and we'd have to have a trait for "general" as well.

But most Saxon governors and warlords were known as Ealdormen, regardless of their actual powers and standing! Just thinking it'll add a unique taste to the Saxons. Unless it requires complex coding or whatever modding procedures, of course. Not quite getting the last bit though..

Just played through a vanilla BI Saxon campaign today. Early game infantry choices were pathetic for an infantry-centered faction. Levy Spearmen (Tier 1) and Saxon Keel (Tier 2) were just grossly inadequate against proper swordsmen. The new Seax Warriors unit should probably be put in Tier 2/3, depending on how powerful we actually make them.

Suggestion: Shall we rename Saxons' Barbarian Peasants as Fyrd Levies or just Fyrd or not?

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-22-2010 @ 10:26 AM).]

Or we could get rid of peasants as an effective fighting unit and instead have them as 'Settlers' or 'Villagers' a la FATW.

have them as 'Settlers' or 'Villagers' a la FATW.

Never played FATW. Can't see why we should give the Saxons Settlers/Villagers...what's the connection?

_{BTW I wasn't serious about chickenblade...}

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-22-2010 @ 10:29 AM).]

Fyrd should be L1, with a 'Chosen Fyrd' at L2, these will fufill the same role as Levy spearmen (not Keel though), only with altered stats and appearance. Weapons (Round shield, spear, throwing weapons) should be the same as in Vanilla.
Saxons tend to be my forte when considering this Era.
Saxons need to have some sort of central government gimmmick, by the 10th century, Saxon England was the best organised, most efficent and most productive country in western Europe, but their military relied on infantry composed of Fyrd part-time soldiers and the professional Huscarls. For the earlier Era, 'raider' units should be included, both infantry and cavalry

Kind of against the Chosen Fyrd name, since by "fyrd" we usually refer to farmers bullied into a battleline, and "chosen" suggests elite - the two halves don't blend well...

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-22-2010 @ 11:12 AM).]

Never played FATW. Can't see why we should give the Saxons Settlers/Villagers...what's the connection?

I meant peasants being changed to Settlers universally, throughout the entire game.

What happened was that you have a large unit of what was basically men with sticks and nothing else that had 0 recruitment time. You'd recruit them in your larger cities and move them en mass to your backwater provinces and disband them to kick the population growth a little.

I always though it an excellent system. Defense 1, everything else 0.

Agree with GKA- the two terms are mutually exclusive, creating an oxymoron.

By the gods, I never thought I would ever have an occasion to use that word!

hmm, 'heavy fyrd' could do, implying these men had access to better equipment

More of a paradox than an oxymoron; an oxymoron generally actually makes sense despite its logical self-contradiction... not always, it's true.

Guys, remember we don't have to call them anything fyrd. Could be something completely different.

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-22-2010 @ 02:32 PM).]

But I won't. Use your imagination.

Pwease?!?


Any thoughts on updating the Saxon navy? Maybe another ship for their roster?

My idea is that these settlers of yours appear on the battle map but need to be protected because they are technically your population growth in the cities you want them in. So you put forces with them to guard from ambushes and rebels.

On Settlers: Well they seem like a cool idea. Even if we change all factions' peasants into Settlers, I still think the Saxon settlers could be called Fyrd Levies, because they were made up of every able-bodied men within each district/shire, assembling (and bringing whatever weapons they could find) whenever their Ealdorman called. Hence they fit the 0-turn recruitment time constraint and the abysmal stats pretty well.

But any unit with at least some training (i.e. Levy Spearmen) shouldn't be called anything fyrd because they fail to match the description of the word.

_{Took me a while to figure out what GKA meant - sounded like some game's short-form or serial code - but it's actually me!}

, I still think the Saxon settlers could be called Fyrd Levies

No, that should be a seperate Tier 1 troop IMO. Settlers are basically not intended for war at all, while the Fyrd at the very least stand in a battle line.

0 turn recruitment for them would be interesting, however...

You do have a point. A separate tier 1 Fyrd Levies unit for the Saxons with 0-turn recruitment time will serve as an emergency backup garrison players can spam against approaching besiegers. The recruitment time can't go up to 1-turn though, because if players can't spam them, they basically have no reason to recruit any at all. A Fyrd Levies unit should either take 0 turns to train, or just be dropped. And do we put them in formation?

_{EDIT: Heads up, the Franks now have their axe-throwing cavalry unit renamed to Francisca Cavalry. Any objections?}

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-23-2010 @ 10:24 AM).]

We should include Fyrd Levies as a 0-turn militia unit, more like the Peasants of RTW than the Settlers of FATW. They should probably be in a very, very messy rectangular formation.

Right, Fyrd Levies Tier 1 from the town hall it is then. Let's look into more important things such as:

Quoted from Punic:
Any thoughts on updating the Saxon navy? Maybe another ship for their roster?

And we should probably start looking into the three-caste system introduced by Seneca.

We should include Fyrd Levies as a 0-turn militia unit, more like the Peasants of RTW than the Settlers of FATW. They should probably be in a very, very messy rectangular formation.

And 'trained Fyrd Levies' as the fodder for the lowest tier barracks?

And we should probably start looking into the three-caste system introduced by Seneca.

A bit of research into how that worked wouldn't go amiss.

And 'trained Fyrd Levies' as the fodder for the lowest tier barracks?

I think that should be Levy Spearmen. The fyrd was supposed to be untrained. Fyrd Levies should probably be trainable from the town hall (government) buildings in all settlements.