Axes (1 and 2 handed models), spears, swords, shortbows. All except the 2 handed axemen used shields afaik. I read somewhere that the Norse played a game called "The Finger Dance" where they essentially launched hand-axes at each other and caught them out of the air, so short ranged throwing axemen may be a possibility. Cavalry? Not so much. Can't put horsies on a longship. Perhaps at the port offer a cargo ship upgrade that would enable the building of stables? Is such a thing possible? Even then cavalry should be extremely limited. Could you have a General's bodygaurd of two-handed axemen maybe? Oh yes, they should get berserkers. For research on dieties to dedicate shrines to, there's a good site http://thenorsegods.com/ The numbers of them are too large to list here.

Lab

Ahh yes, the Norse. So far all I could come up with is that the Norse should be able to horde. To give them options, let them start off with a fleet, or is it possible to make "horde boats"? We should try to make the Norse a "sea horde", much like the pirates on ETW. In the Descr_campiagn file, set "prefers naval invasion to yes"(and yes, I have modded before), Give the Saxons and Romano Britians some competition in Britian.

EDIT: P.S. I saw the Franks faction symbol, It looks great!

[This message has been edited by AugustusCaesar (edited 09-29-2010 @ 05:50 PM).]

I eagerly await Terikel's input on this faction.

Indeed this faction should be very axe/spear dominated, with maybe only one crappy recruitable combat cavalry unit available to them, much like the Greek cav of RTW.

I can't believe I missed the closing of the Frankish thread!

So far all I could come up with is that the Norse should be able to horde.

I totally went "WTF" when I saw this. No offense, Augustus, but the Norse were probably even fewer in number than Saxons. They were sea raiders, and hence tendencies to execute seaborne invasions are definitely a must, but I fear that the age of Norse migrations hadn't quite started yet...

Spears and axes all the way! Norse Berserkers sound very appropriate indeed.

And yes Punic I also eagerly await Terikel's input.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-30-2010 @ 07:05 AM).]

The Norse of old were never very numerous, though they were highly effective at raiding and battle, and the taking of land. To which, we must examine the exploits of the Norsemen and determine what made them such a power?

The first, obviously is the longship. A vessel that could carry up to one hundred warriors (depending on size), was very seaworthy (unlike galleys) yet was light enough to be carried overland around those sections of rivers inhospitable to other ships. Sailing and rowing gave one more speed than simple marching, which meant the longships could bring a warhost to an area, pillage it at will while the natives of the land scurry for cover and assemble a warhost of their own, then sail away without being brought to battle.

This tactic proved very effective. So much so that Vikings found they could land in one place, steal horses enough to mount their entire warhost, and pillage much further from their ship than was possible.

The Viking warrior also wore a coat of chainmail that was composed of two layers of mail. He had a spectacled helm that protected his head and upper face while allowing good vision and breathing. He was armed with a sword or battle-axe, a spear, and a bow, and carried a round shield that was often hung upon the sides of his ship when at sea.

He fought for his lord, be he the captain of a ship, or a man of noble blood. His courage was legion as long as his lord lived- but shriveled upon the death of his liege as it was considered shameful to outlive one’s lord. His seaman’s work made him very strong, and his high-protein and calcium diet gave him strength and stature.

The Berzerkers were finally outlawed in 1015, I believe, not long before the Viking Age ended. Thus these men did exist, did indeed go mad in battle, and did indeed scare their opponents until fecal matter dripped from their pantaloons. They were, however, not distinguishing of friend from foe when in their rage, and thus were treated with uncommon disdain by their fellow warriors.



Thus, in creating a Norse faction, we must consider these points:

The Norse were predominantly Heavy Infantry- with very good/strong armor and decent shield. They were also melee infantry for the most part- thus strong in attack and had a very high morale as long as their captain breathed. Berzerkers are indeed typical Norse- they should be included. I would suggest that the infantry unit of the Norse be made smaller than other, similar units from other factions (25 or so men in place of 40), but in turn be granted a second hit point to balance the equation (and duplicate the vigor shown in battle when they fought on with what was otherwise grievous wounds).

Their cavalry was good when they had horses, otherwise no cavalry. This should be reflected in the Area of Recruitment, with only a small unit of medium melee cavalry available on the main roster.

There were archers, but they were relatively few in number. Thus a Bowmen unit is advised, with no Chosens.

Their ships should be very strong and swift. At least four sizes, and ports available from Tier 1, naturally. There shall be the 15 shield Karvi longship, the 25-shield Snekkja, the 35-shield Skei (Dragonship), and the massive Drakkar

The men went a-Viking in the summer, and in the winter they often traded their booty among those they raided. Thus markets were popular with the Norse (Copenhagen – Købnhavn in Danish- actually means Trader’s Haven) and should be available early.

I would like to see Subrikel’s Vikings become an AoR asset available in the Tier-3 ports, to simulate the flocking of Vikings to the great cities and ports of the Middle Sea.

These are my first runes of thought upon this subject. They may vary as time proceeds onward.

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 09-30-2010 @ 10:04 AM).]

He was armed with a sword or battle-axe, a spear, and a bow, and carried a round shield that was often hung upon the sides of his ship when at sea.

I read that they hang more shields than they actually use. Just extra trivia

His courage was legion as long as his lord lived- but shriveled upon the death of his liege as it was considered shameful to outlive one’s lord.

I also read that lordless men were the most dangerous kind, having nothing to lose. A mercenary/AOR unit for discussion when we reach that thread?

Some details of the longships suggested by Terikel, from Wiki:

The Karvi:
A ship with between 6 and 16 benches would be classified as a Karvi. These ships were considered to be “general purpose” ships, mainly used for fishing and trade, but occasionally were commissioned for military use. While most longships held a length to width ratio of 7:1, the Karvi ships were closer to 4.5:1.

It is believed that while its main purpose was coastal voyages, it was capable of safely crossing the Atlantic Ocean.

The Snekkja:
The snekkja, meaning 'thin and projecting,' was typically the smallest longship used in warfare and was classified as a ship with at least 20 rowing benches. A typical snekkja might have a length of 17 metres (56 ft), a width of 2.5 metres (8.2 ft), and a draught of only 0.5 metres (1.6 ft). It would carry a crew of around 41 men (40 oarsmen and one cox).

Snekkjas were one of the most common types of ship.

Snekkjas were so light that they had no need of ports – they could simply be beached, and potentially even carried across a portage.

The Snei:
Skei, meaning ‘that which cuts through water,’ ships were larger warships, consisting of more than 30 rowing benches. Ships of this classification are the largest longships ever discovered.

Not much on the Drakkar, though, but I still love them!

One of the other major trade hubs was Haithabu, which I think should either be made into a settlement or represented by a port.

Hedeby was the largest Nordic city during the Viking Age and used to be the oldest city in Denmark until the site became part of Germany.

Or can we divide Denmark into 2 regions - Haithabu and Copenhagen?

A Viking overview, from one of my books:
The Vikings entered history in the late 8th and 9th centuries as sea raiders, terrorizing Europe from Dublin to Constantinople. These outstanding shipborne warriors were also traders, explorers, and settlers, and the period of hit-and-run raids was followed in some areas by permanent settlement.

Over time, improved political organization in Scandanavia turned raiding into the more ambitious warfare waged by the kings of Denmark and Norway.

In 911, in return for good behaviour, the Frankish king Charles III granted Vikings territory in northern France. Thus Normandy was founded and Vikings became Normans ("Northmen"), in which guise their military enterprises continued, with conquests ranging from England to Sicily.

So a part of me wants to point out that Vikings weren't quite the great sea lords of the north yet in the Sixth Century, but the other part's saying "who frigging cares?"

Subrikel's Vikings, for those who don't know.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-30-2010 @ 09:13 AM).]

quoted from wiki
the title of jarl was the highest rank below the king himself. The jarl was the only one, beside the king himself, who was entitled to have a hird (large armed retinue). There was usually no more than one jarl in mainland Norway at any one time, sometimes none. The ruler of the Norwegian dependency of Orkney held the title of jarl, and after Iceland had acknowledged Norwegian overlordship in 1261, a jarl was sent there as well as the king's high representative. In mainland Norway, the title of jarl was usually used for one of two purposes:

* To appoint a de facto ruler in cases where the king was a minor or seriously ill (e.g. Håkon galen in 1204 during the minority of king Guttorm, Skule Bårdsson in 1217 during the illness of king Inge Bårdsson).
* To appease a pretender to the throne without giving him the title of king (e.g. Eirik, the brother of king Sverre).

Do we call the faction heir Jarl or the recruitable general?

In Norway, too, housecarls were members of the king's or another powerful man's hirð

So like the Saxons the Norse should also get huscarls.

[This message has been edited by Seneca Monachus (edited 09-30-2010 @ 10:24 AM).]

They were assembling into kingdoms as early as the 5th century, from the sources I read (Hrolf Kraki's tale supposedly takes place in the early 500's), though they spent a lot of time fighting amongst themselves before spreading the bloodletting fun to the rest of Europe (and beyond). Sweden (Svealand) was already a fact by 500, though Norway was split into jarldoms (each valley was its own nation) and not made into a single kingdom until later (Harald Fairhair made a kingdom in 872, but it divided again and stayed that way until 1020 or so).

Maybe start them off with one or two true provinces, with the rest being rebels. We make it so that when the Norse player captures all northern provinces, it opens up the Viking Tech Tree. Or something like that- or simply put them in the normal progression and let the game handle it.

The term Jarl means the same as the English Earl, or Duke, or other high noble. There was no specific term I found for the king's heir- many times the little buggers fought each other until one emerged victorious! Or somebody else stepped in. The above quote from Seneca concerns medieval Norway, which we haven't gotten to yet. Early Nordheim had no king- only warring jarls.

Huscarls will definitely be essential as the top-tier infantry. As stated in one of the other threads, the term simple means Household Warrior. Many barbarian and Germanic factions will end up with them.

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 09-30-2010 @ 10:37 AM).]

Fun fact - the Norse didn't actually really start using sails until the 7th century. Or some ridiculously late date, anyway. Or so evidence tells us.

Not that this makes a difference, everyone wants to topple a reinvigorated Rome as the Vikings, amirite?

everyone wants to topple a reinvigorated Rome as the Vikings, amirite?

Well a part of me's howling for that, but the other part's calling for slightly limiting their empire-building capacities.

Quoted From Terikel:
Maybe start them off with one or two true provinces, with the rest being rebels. We make it so that when the Norse player captures all northern provinces, it opens up the Viking Tech Tree.

Sounds quite similar to Kingdoms: Teutonic Order or whatever it's called, where the Danes were granted bonuses (forgot what they were) upon capturing key cities in the North as part of a "Nordic Reunification Movement" or something.

Maybe we can stimulate a similar process for the Norse as well? Like after the Norse player has control of all Northern regions, we will make the Snei and Drakkar, along with many of their best (top-tier/empire-making/kick-ass) units recruitable - to stimulate their roaming abroad and bloodletting all over Europe?

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 10-01-2010 @ 09:05 PM).]

I do not think giving all the Norse units chainmail would be historically accurate - remember this is 500 AD, not 900, and I would imagine body-armour would be at least as rare in Scandinavia as the rest of the world at the time. I may of course be wrong.

I also disagree with the idea of halving the unit sizes of Norse infantry but doubling their hitpoints - making them better than most units of other factions is of course reasonable, but twice the hitpoints means basically twice as good. If we were going to give all units a few hitpoints (to make battles last longer - not necessarily a bad idea) then I would agree to giving the Norse on average more. But twice as many as other units in general seems unrealistic. Of course making the Norse better infantry warriors than most is historically sound - but I think a maximum of two infantry units with multiple hitpoints. One of these would be berserkers (I imagine), another some sensible elite infantry unit.

I also think a reforms function would be a good idea; as time goes by and the Norse gain a reputation for ferocity, most of their units should gain a "frightens enemy infantry" attribute I think.

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 10-01-2010 @ 11:33 AM).]

Having halve the units numbers almost exactly negates the hit point boost. I know this from trial and death, when I faced clibinari with graal knights(2hp, halve units), in which my graal knights died, and with my flanks broken, my lines broke and ran too.

It wouldn't work if a majority of Norse heavy infantry units were half-sized. A Norse full stack could be much weaker than e.g. a Saxon (their heavy infantry were almost as good) or Frankish (their heavy cavalry would encircle and smash the half-sized shield walls) full stack.

Keeping only the Berzerkers and one other elite uber unit half-sized and double-hitpoints, as suggested above, sounds better.

Anyone else'd like to comment on the Nordic bonus scheme?

Having halve the units numbers almost exactly negates the hit point boost. I know this from trial and death, when I faced clibinari with graal knights(2hp, halve units), in which my graal knights died, and with my flanks broken, my lines broke and ran too.

Of course; but I think Terikel wants to deliberately overpower the Norse on a man-to-man basis. Can't blame him of course, but have to catch him at it...

I move we make an Easter Egg for Terikel!

EDIT: Maybe we can add a certain bard (retinue member) only accessible by Norse family members.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 10-02-2010 @ 07:01 AM).]

Actually, I was not thinking half the unit size- more like 2/3. And the double hit-points would only be for the upper tiers of the heavy infanty. The lower tiers of fyrd and hird would be normal, as they were more normal. It was only the warriors who went a-viking, or raiding, that were exceptional, and created the reputation of Viking strength and power. Thus we should reflect this in the game as well.

Chainmail was around and in quantity in the 500's. It has been around since well before 300 BCE, and armorers had been producing it steadily since then. The Romans, especially, outfitted all of their early legionaries and all auxilia in it, and in the 200's the lorica segmentata went away in favor of chainmail. Chainmail may rust and need to be repaired, but it is not bread- it will not go bad and need to be thrown out. Plus, as the feoderati learned, chainmail is good stuff.

So it is quite reasonable to assume that there was a lot of chainmail about by 500 (proven in many history books) and that armies and warhosts were using it (also in many history books). So we do it as well.

Fair enough. I'm a Prettanologist, the Dark Ages stretches my knowledge a bit.

Maybe we can add a certain bard (retinue member) only accessible by Norse family members.

Or maybe "Grand Master Skald"? Better, "Skald Grayhair"? Maybe we could have similar easier eggs for most of the factions.

Well I guess it's ultimately the skald's own choice that matters

Why are the lower-tier units also gonna be 2/3 sized, if they aren't gonna be tougher than average?

From a random site:
Norsemen frequently intermarried with the local population and adopted the languages and customs of the people that they conquered. Thus, little evidence of Norse influence in cultures outside of Scandinavia and Iceland remains.

So I was thinking: is it possible to limit the Norse culture to their homeland, and keep everywhere else they conquer to the original culture - Frankish, Saxon, Roman, etc. - and "gradually" allow more and more local units to be trained by their Norse overlords?

But again this could be just pure fantasy. I myself don't fully understand what I've just proposed The adaptation process itself could also be much longer than ten or twenty years and hard to simulate...

The lower tier spear and axe men of the Norse warhosts will have better armor and a high morale, but they still were not very numerous- hence the balance for better armor+morale means less of them, and more of a challenge for the Norse player to get the North under his crown and open up the more powerful, export units.

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 10-03-2010 @ 06:06 AM).]

I like the idea of reducing most Norse units' numbers. Historically the Norse weren't as numerous as their foes, but every one who went viking was hardy, well-trained, well-equipped and courageous. Smaller unit sizes will restrict players' success with early rushing neighbours - simulating a slow and gradual rise to power.

A special Norse AOR unit suggestion: Norse-Gaels in Hibernia and Caledonia. These could be light infantry, cavalry or spearmen - basically used for supporting the main heavy melee group. Someone mentioned no regular cavalry for the Norsemen earlier, so these are potential candidates for that area.

Re: Berzerkers

In vanilla RTW German Berserkers were recruited in a top-tier religious building. Were Norse Berzerkers religiously motivated at all? I don't mean like sending a pre-battle prayer to Thor and Odin (every warrior did that), I mean did they fight in honour of the gods, or dedicate their kills to one of them?

If not, how about we limit their recruitment to the Norse Centre of Power?

What would everybody like the Berzerkers to wield?

Shall we have a 2-handed Axemen unit, or just another unit like the Saxon Houscarls?

A suggestion's been made about the Norse banner: the Drakkar, or Dragon Boat. Any other suggestions?

_{Let's get this discussion flowing again!}

Sorry i haven't replied in a LONG time. My computer crashed and i speant several weeks waiting for it to get repaired. But this is bringing up an old thought.

Fun fact - the Norse didn't actually really start using sails until the 7th century. Or some ridiculously late date, anyway. Or so evidence tells us.



So maybe early tier ships can be slightly down powered. That is going off this quote. But Terikiel's post makes me believe that their middle to high ships should be super powerful. That is my thoughts on the matter. Please, reply if you see anything wrong. I am learning even more than I thought I knew about the Dark Ages.

[This message has been edited by Nickel531 (edited 10-05-2010 @ 07:48 AM).]

quoted from GKA
A suggestion's been made about the Norse banner: the Drakkar, or Dragon Boat. Any other suggestions?

What about only the front of the ship, something like:


Other things that can be a faction symbol that represent the norse imo: ,, Thors hammer and a raven of Odin.

[This message has been edited by Seneca Monachus (edited 10-05-2010 @ 09:35 AM).]

Including the whole ship does sound a bit too obvious. The Dragon prow would make a good one. I particularly like the Thor's Hammer idea though.

Nickel: Good to have you back If you've read my posts too, you should've seen that I've proposed a reforms system for the Norse - quite like the Nordic Reunification Movement for the Danes in M2TW Kingdoms: Teutonic Order.

The Norse reforms would - if everybody likes it and it is indeed not too complex to mod - require the Norse player to capture certain key regions in the North, after which the faction is granted new and better units to support its empire-building ventures. The higher-tier ships like the Snei and Drakkar would be among that number.

The thing is that to code that we'd have to limit the recruitment of elite Norse units to the "core regions" they have to conquer - it's not the end of the world, but we, unfortunately, don't have the scripting flexibility of Kingdoms.

Sorry General... I read everything, just got a little scrambled this morning.

I'm not an expert, but what would the temples be ( this may be too way off topic...) i assume thor, and likely odin for the third is it loki or freyja? or others??

Well there's nothing saying we can only have three temples. I'd go for Odin, Thor, Loki, Njord (god of the sea), and perhaps Tyr (god of war).

Aww that sucks Mythic

Still, limiting the best units to the Viking homeland doesn't particularly sound like a bummer - I mean, where would the best Norse warriors come from, if not Norseland itself?

Njord is a must. No viking sails without a prayer or offering to him first. I can see a top-tier sacred circle or something to Njord that grants sea trade bonuses, etc already. The Drakkar could be recruitable from there too if Reforms are not code-able.

Does anyone have a basic unit list going?
If so we might be able to incoperate a unit into Tyr the god of war, such as a beskerkish unit or a super elite.

Here's a draft. Discuss:

Infantry:

Town House:
Tier 1 Fyrd Spearmen (50 men, poor armor, ok morale, spearwall)
Tier 5 Huscarls (36 men, great armor, very high morale, frighten infantry, throws axe, 2 HP, 2 turns recruit)

Barracks: (with warcry)
Tier 1 Fjord Warriors (40 men, good morale)
Tier 2 Fyrd Axemen (50 men, decent armor, good morale)
Tier 3 Hird Swordsmen (50 men, good armor, high morale)
Tier 4 Vikings (50 men, great armor, high morale, frighten infantry, throws axe)

Temples of Tor
Tier 3 Drugged/Crazed/Mushroom-eating Berserkers (do NOT distinguish friend from foe)
Tier 4 Battle-lust Berserkers (do distinguish friend from foe)

Cavalry
Tier 2 Warhounds
Tier 3 Hird Cavalry (medium sword cavalry)


Missiles:
Tier 1 Skirmishers
Tier 2 Bowmen
Tier 3 Chosen Bowmen
Tier 4 Viking Bowmen (as Foresters- bowmen with spears)

Ports/Ships
Tier 1 Karvi
Tier 2 Snekkja
Tier 3 Skei
Tier 3 Vikings (as per Tier 4 barracks)
Tier 4 + Temple Njord Drakkar very strong ship, high crew

AoR: (recruitable, but cannot build structures self)
Tier 4: Heavy cavalry (spear armed)
Tier 4: artillery (onagers and ballistae, nothing complicated)

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 10-06-2010 @ 08:29 AM).]

Very nice list, Terikel. Quite a few questions though... Please don't go berserk

1. The spear wall isn't the phalanx, right?

2. Lab suggested axe-throwing infantry earlier. Wouldn't it be better if you exchange the Tier 2 bowmen unit with an axe-throwing one? I can picture a medium-armour skirmishing unit armed with 3 or 4 anti-armour throwing axes. A bit like the Frankish Angon Heerbann, in fact, and it balances out the missile roster better, methinks. 3 archer units? Come on...

3. Mushroom-eating Berserkers <- I'll go berserk before I let this name go (Berzerkers or Berserkers?)

4. Tier 3 Hird Cavalry (medium sword cavalry)
That's not very Norse-like... Thought we agreed on no cavalry until the Norse reached other areas (and capture horses)?

5. What's the difference between Tier 4 Vikings and Tier 3 "Port" Vikings? Same unit, recruitable from both?

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 10-06-2010 @ 10:46 AM).]

Spear wall is not phalanx, but similar. More like schiltron. The Norse had literally two types of armies- one was the Viking raiders- swords, axes, bows, quick-hitting with heavy armor: the typical Viking. The other was the local boys who have not gone out a-viking but rather stayed home: farmhands and the like. These fought as spearmen, tight together, much like the Germanic spear warband (which does have phalanx).

I put Tier 2 bowmen in because they would have range, but not armor-piercing power. I haven't put what weapon the skirmishers will use- weak bows, franciscas, javelins, throwing spears. I'll leave that up to discussion, but it should be a relatively weak and cheap unit. As to the archers- Vikings were known to carry a variety of weapons including bows, though game mechanics forbid it. This was the closest I could come to finding a true missile unit to complement the lack of cavalry and otherwise infantry-dominated roster.

Berserkers is with an s, at least according to Mr Spell-checker. They were famed for their battle-rage, and despised for occasionally killing their own mates. This was a big taboo in the North, thus berserkers were praised for their ability and ferocity, but otherwise despised. So I suggested a historically-accurate one which nobody would use, of course, and a game-balancing one as an improvement upon it.

The Norse did have some cavalry. It just wasn't very numerous or popular. This fixes the gap. You want good cavalry? Capture a province that has it for the AoR.

Tier 4 Barracks Vikings and Tier 3 Port Vikings are the same. Tier 4 Barracks are in cities with the old Legionary Barracks, while Tier 3 Port Vikings come from Tier 4 cities with a Tier 3 port (highest). So they should be available form the same level cities, just different buildings. Vikings were adventurers and often flocked to ports where they would trade what they stole. The port Vikings simulate these freebooters.

Have I addressed your issues satisfactorily?

Quite satisfactorily..

I did learn about the historical accuracy of the Germanic spear wall some time ago, from don't-remember-who.

I still think a total of 3 types of archers is overkill - not much variety in there...

The huscarls seem a bit undermanned, no? Perhaps only beta-testing will tell...

What would the huscarls and berserkers wield?

Quoted from GKA:

I did learn about the historical accuracy of the Germanic spear wall some time ago, from don't-remember-who.

Caesar, Commentaries on the Gallic War, Chapter 52.

Don't think of it as three types of archers. Think of it as one type of archer that improves over time.

The huscarls might be undermanned, but remember, that 2HP, the double-mail armor, long shield, and the scare-ability will balance that out. I hope.

I was thinking huscarls would have short battle-axes with Armor-piercing blows (sort of like Chosen Axemen but with a bit shorter handle). Berserkers in real life used swords, or axes, or daggers, or even clubs and bare hands. I was thinking the model should hold a short battleaxe that had a high attack.

Would it be possible to give the Huscarls a shield wall. Although it is unlikely for the Norsemen, Huscarls were know to fight defencivly in a shield wall, most notable the Battle of Hastings. Just throwing that out there in case we want to make them mercs to.
P.S
Thanks Terikiel for creating the roster.

I don't think that we can code berserkers that can't tell friend from foe, unfortunately.

So the huscarls and berserkers both go into battle swinging 2-handed battle-axes?

Personally I'd arm the huscarls with axe and shield, Mushroom-eating Berserkers with battle-axes, and the best berserkers with a largish maul/ warhammer (to symbolize Thor's hammer?)

EDIT: Here's a crazy idea:

A fantasy unit: Valkyries from the Top-tier Sacred Circle of Odin. They could be extremely tough axe maidens wearing winged helmets and bronze breastplates, and everyone would look like Cate Blanchett if you like. 36 maidens a unit. Valkyries sometimes appear as mounted warriors but I'm not proposing another cavalry unit ever.

Another fantasy unit would be the Einherjar - in Norse mythology, the slain warriors feasting in Valhalla until Ragnarok. This would however be pushing the limits somewhat.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 10-07-2010 @ 11:31 AM).]

Quoted from Mythic:

I don't think that we can code berserkers that can't tell friend from foe, unfortunately.

Sure we can. Use the same coding for elephants instead of that for berserkers ('runs amok' in place of 'goes berserk').

Failing that, we simply scrap the lower-level zerks and go with vanilla ones (but with battle axes and swords, not the pickaxe)

Like this guy:



Also, the axes for the huscarls and others are not the huge bladed, five-foot handled axes of the Chosen Axeman like this:



but rather something able to be wielded in one hand (because there is a shield in the other!), like this Danish and this Norse axe:

Danish:


Norse:


Or even a generic axe like this bearded one:

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 02-02-2011 @ 02:52 AM).]

Yay add the mythological piece it will make them more interesting and fun! And add more if it fits norse mythology is awesome...

Wait, about the Valkyries idea, I'd like to present an alternative:

Instead of an axe maiden unit, make them a medium skirmish & melee cavalry unit, replacing the Hird Cavalry. They were represented as riders many times like in here

Spear-armed and eqipped with 5 or 6 javelins, maybe. Like it? Hate it?

So they will fly?

Just kidding. Looks awesome General.

Valkyries would indeed be awesome.

The Norse women had many rights in their day, far more than contemporary Roman, Greek, or others. They could own land, they could trade, several were warriors.

But none historically formed units. Nor were Valkyries real. They might have been inspired by tales of Brynil and her cloaked airbikes gathering neural imprints of dying heroes, but that is another story...

I'd prefer to leave the Hird Cavalry in, as a token unit of cavalry available only when the cities get so far as to have an advanced stable. Otherwise mercs!

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 10-07-2010 @ 11:53 AM).]

i think we should keep the units as realistic as possible.
But maybe we can offer them to the norse as a retinue member?
Valkyrie: This woman thinks she belongs to the mytical Valkyries. (Kinda like the Glorious fool)
Einherjar: After a being hit by a warhammer in a battle this man thinks he is the Einherjar. People keep it this way, but feel unconfortable. (+1 hitpoints, -1 morele)

Or we could do a Valkyrie priestess or a Einherjar priest. They might be either a combat unit (kind of like a druid) or a retinue.

with an ability similar to the screaming women for germania in vanilla rtw?

But none historically formed units.

I know, that's why I'm proposing them as a fantasy unit. If they sound "too imaginative", then drop them. BTW the retinue member idea doesn't particularly appeal to me: having a valkyrie follow you around? Don't know...

Einherjar priest. They might be either a combat unit (kind of like a druid) or a retinue.

The Einherjar were slain warriors feasting in Valhalla, waiting to assist the gods in the final battle against the Giants - kind of like "sub-angels". They weren't priestly in any particular way. I can imagine a related merc unit though: the Einherjar - these are Northern warriors so fearsome in battle (and etc.) that they call themselves the "walking dead". I shall remember to bring this up when we come to the thread.

Sure we can. Use the same coding for elephants instead of that for berserkers ('runs amok' in place of 'goes berserk')

Hmmm. I thought of that, but I just can't think of any way to change the way running amok is triggered - it would have to be based off of heavy missile attack via fire arrows and javelins like vanilla.

Can you give it the same trigger as normal berserk, but with 'run amok' as the effect?

EDIT: We can also leave it as the normal berserker, and remove the 'goes berserk' from the advanced version.

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 10-08-2010 @ 10:32 AM).]

Give them area attack like onagers. It would look amazing on the battle map. Would it work?

However, area attack AND berserk would probably make them far too overpowered...