Vanilla Unit roster, for reference
Note: this all from memory, I may have missed something

Govt Building:
Peasants
Imperial German Bodyguard

Barracks:
Limitanei
Foederati Infantry
Comitatenses
Plumbatarii
Auxilia Palatina
Comitatenses First Cohort

Stables:
Foederati Cavalry
Sarmatian Auxilia
Scholari
Equites Sagitarii

Archery Range:
Archers
Bucelarii
Ballistae
Repeating Ballistae
Onagers
Heavy Onagers
Carriage Ballistae

Port:
Bireme
Trireme
Quinquireme

PLUS:
Priests
Praeventores

My first suggestion is that we replace the Imperial German Bodyguard with something more Roman looking, and use the German model for the Ostrogothic general.

Second suggestion is that we work out exactly what we want to change with the reforms. And that we reopen the reforms thread, so that we can determine how they are going to work!

Next, as with all factions, we replace the peasants with something more worthy of existence. Vigiles, Urban Cohort, no sé qué. Something you'd actually use as a garrison/police force. Priests can go, probably Praeventores as well.

From there... not sure. Are we maintaining the Constantinian system with the Romans, are we jumping forward and using a Thematic/Tagmatic approach, returning to Caesarian legions, or a mixture thereof, with the reforms changing things from one to the other? Carriage Ballistae: Fun or OP? How strongly influenced are the Romans by their Germanic neighbours, etc?

Replace the German Guard definitely- these Romans would not want anything to do with the Germani that 'stole their empire'.

In the same vein, dump foederati.

Sarmatian Auxilia should probably go too. The've only been dead half a century.

I do like the idea of reverting to the older style traditional legions, because to me it seems the only way the roman empire could have survived is if they could get the populace to become soldier-citizens like they were in the early empire/late republic.
that to me seems the best idea.

Destroy anything barbarian. If anything, in Italy Roman territory should be completely Roman.

Maybe we should have a lighter, maybe spear-wielding version of the comitatenses as flank guards.

Perhaps to simulate the reRomanization of the world (hopefully) the traditional Roman troops that we will give the WRE should be available only after a new building is built that is completely Roman. Perhaps an Arch or monument glorifying the past deeds and thus allow the training of the older style troops?

Govt Building
Peasants Vigiles

Special
Catholic Priest
Praeventores -> Arcani (post-reforms )

Infantry
Foederati Infantry
Limitanei -> Auxilia (but still with javelins)
Plumbatarii ->
Comitatenses -> Legionary Cohort
Auxilia Palatina -> Reskin after reforms?
Comitatenses First Cohort -> Legionary First Cohort

Missiles
Archers -> Archer Auxilia
Bucellarii -> Reskin?

Cavalry
Foederati Cavalry
Sarmatian Auxilia
Scholae Palatinae
Imperial German Bodyguard Imperial Roman Bodyguard ()
Equites Sagittarii

Siege Weapons
Carriage Ballistae
Ballistae
Scorpions
Repeating Balistae
Onagers
Heavy Onagers

* * *

Anyway, as you can see there are obvious things to change in the Roman military, but apart from the changes I see necessary at a glance, I've left most of it relatively untouched. Apart from bringing some of the classic units back, I think we'll also need to preserve some of the better BI units, like Plumbatarii, but give them a re-skin. New units would also be nice.

That's all I can think of, for the moment.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-10-2011 @ 00:45 AM).]

Imperial Roman Bodyguard= Praetorians.

From some mods i liked the fact that you can recruit multiple kind of legions.

And when i hear a reform after the fall of Rome than i think that the roman military gets more focussed towards their enemy.

So for example we divide the world roughly in 4 pieces: north east west and south.
Every side gets their own legionary that is well trained and equiped to fight under cetain conditions.

In my example of South we get a legionary equiped with lorica hamata (i imagine it is not as hot as lorica segmenta) and that get a combat bonus in desert. Call it Legio Meridiem (Southern legion)
North get Lorica segmenta and combat bonus in snow/wood (legio Septentrionalis)
East gets legionaries armed with spears like the ones in BI? (legio orientalis)
And west a bonus on scrub + better pila to fight in gaul/hispania (legio occidentalis)

Ofcourse every legio gets (huge) penalty's outside their own territory. First cohorts can still only be trained in Capital/Italy?

On this way you can have unique militairy campaigns towards every wind direction.

[This message has been edited by Seneca Monachus (edited 02-10-2011 @ 03:47 AM).]

Rejoice, folks, for the one and only Seneca is back! So good to see you! And behold the proposal just put forth!

I love the sound of it, and it could very well work - though I really have no idea. If approved by the Mod Leaders, we could be headed for awesomeness indeed.

And perhaps not just the Legionary Cohorts, but also the cavalry and missile departments? Like, the composite bow is a viable weapon choice in the drier East, but not in the damp conditions of Northern Europe?

In essence, the Roman roster could be massively AoR-oriented, from a regional perspective, if it's feasible and generally acceptable.

Imperial Roman Bodyguard= Praetorians.

Oh that's so helpful of you! Are we sure about resurrecting the disbanded Praetorians in the Reforms? If so, might I suggest creating two kinds of them - one better, glitzier version recruitable in Italy, and one rougher, duller version for the overseas - men with an appearance of real fighters. Not just the appearance difference, but also a morale difference perhaps? (think about what spending too much time basking in the comforts of Rome and Italy can do to fighting men)

Or we could make a Praetorian Guard for the Roman General's Bodyguard, but then all the units above Legionary Cohorts from vanilla will be gone.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-10-2011 @ 04:44 AM).]

The Praetorians originated as the guardians of the Praetor- the general, and were the toughest sumbitches in the legions.

Later, in the Imperial period, they were more glamour-boys who, by virtue of being the only troops near the emperor, became sellers of the throne. Then they met an emperor who was disgusted with them and got disbanded.

As the idea of a Roman Revival is returning to what 'worked', and with the antipathy towards the Germanics who caused the massive downfall (in their eyes), the Aetians might resurrect the Praetorian name as their personal guards, but ensure they are the tough sumbitches of the early days and not the political glamour-boys of the later days.

Besides, Praetorian is a nice Roman name for imperial guards.

Quoted from Wiki:

Legacy
A very visible legacy of the Western Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church. The Church slowly began to replace Roman institutions in the West, even helping to negotiate the safety of Rome during the late 5th century. In many cases the only source of law and civil administration was the local bishop, often himself a former governor like St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Germanus of Auxerre. As Rome was invaded by Germanic tribes, many assimilated, and by the middle of the medieval period (c.9th and 10th centuries) the central, western, and northern parts of Europe had been largely converted by the Roman Catholicism and acknowledged the Pope as the Vicar of Christ.

IIRC, the idea was to start the WRE as Christians, but let them rediscover the worship of the older gods under whom, they led their most glorious days. Now I don't know how the Bishops as Governors thing can be reflected, if at all, in our mod, but I'm guessing they can't be a retinue member because bishops are supposedly tied to the specific shire/city/place he has been named for, e.g. Canterbury, Londonium, York, etc. So perhaps instead of that, we can do law bonuses, and clerics for retinue.

RE: Praetorian Guard

I know, they're just about the perfect choice for the bodyguard... But what will we have for the upper tier heavy infantry in their place? A rougher version of Praetorians, as I have suggested in Post 10?

RE: Keeping Late Roman units

So what do you guys think about keeping units like Plumbatarii, Auxilia Palatina, Bucellarii?

RE: Bringing back Gladiators

I miss the Velite and Samnite Gladiators...

A general's guard unit would be the equivalent of Praetorian Cavalry- cavalry because the general has to move quickly to troubled spots to rally the folks, and Praetorian because , well, he is the praetor (commander) at the time.

The hardy troops selected to be the elite warriors (recruitable only in Rome and Ravenna) would be similar to Urbans in stats and armor, but can be called Praetorians. Or some other elite name.

In the beginning, the Romans would be stuck with what they had at the real Fall of Rome. The idea is to have the Aetian emperors, as they gain in power and territory (ie, they take Rome to unlock the new tech tree) they revive the sturdy troop types that worked for old Romans (these become available).

The basis then would be the legionary cohort beloved from Vanilla RTW, and the roster filled with what worked from BI- plumbata, heavy cav, Sagitarii, etc. What doesn't work from BI- foederati, etc- will already have been discarded..

I still don't quite understand how we're doing religion here. We have a maximum of 3 working religions, and the rest are going to be bugged.

And if they're bugged and don't cause unrest... why would you convert at all?

As for Praetorians... dunno. It wouldn't be difficult for them to be remembered as ones deeply involved with, or symbolic of, the collapse of the Empire.

RE: roman troops
I like the idea of the old legionary cohort etc. reforms mixed with the plumbarii etc.
Perhaps we could have a heavy archer unit & a medium cavalry unit to cover up some of the "gaps" in the roman's army
Also Perhaps we could have a unit like Elite Praetorian bodyguards & then Praetorian legionaries

RE: gladiators
I like the idea of bringing back gladiators providing we have the arenas & Colosseum's that is

I suggest the Praetorians, foot and horse, should be called Palatinae units. Palatinae legions of course formerly being the Emperors personal, elite armies.

At the start, Rome should probably only be able to call on a few Roman Comitatenses, and a bunch of medium-armed and armoured barbarian auxilia/foederati (whichever you prefer). Before reforming to have Segmentata legions (maybe with darts, not pila). I like the idea of Occidental, Oriental etc legions.

I think that at the beginning, Rome should not have/want any foederati or barbarian auxilaries, because the germans have basically taken over the entire western empire, and that would be a reason for me to hate germans if I was a roman.

I relly like the idea of special units in the North,South etc.

Can you make it so When you capture Paris (for example) you can begin building Northen troops?

Praetorians and Palatinae could be two branches of the elite Roman military - one serving as Generals' Bodyguards, the other as elite field infantry. This would make for less repetition and more of an updated feel.

@Rubber_Tooth: Trigger regions, you mean? It's definitely one of the ways to allow training of the four different legionary types.

North - Northern Gaul near the Rhine? (Austrasia?)

East - Asia Minor? Syria? (The WRE would have to go to war with the ERE for those regions, or Sassanids if the ERE can't hold them)

South - Carthage? Sicily?

West - Provence? Narbonne? Tarraco?

Yes, I mean trigger regions.But I have no clue of what city´s that should be.

Trigger regions are clumsy. We can either make capturing that region allow ALL settlements to build the unit, irrespective of settlement size, or I THINK we might be able to make it so that capturing the region allows a new building tree which allows recruitment. But losing the region won't disable the unit, only the ability to construct the first building of the tree.

I repeat, I'm not sure about the second. Theoretically it ought to work. But AoR is much more clean.

Exclusive AoR, then?

Sounds better to me, although I personally don't like having mainstay units I can't retrain outside of a specific region.

I think it could be a good idea to have trigger cities but i also do not like having non-re-trainable units in certain cities.

I think that at the beginning, Rome should not have/want any foederati or barbarian auxilaries, because the germans have basically taken over the entire western empire, and that would be a reason for me to hate germans if I was a roman.

Roman-cultured Gauls and Gallo-Romans formed a large part of the legions since Pompey the Great and Caesar both recruited from Gallo-Romans in the north of Italy. Gauls, Galatians (the legion Deiotariana) and Germans were all used at the Republic and Imperial heights of the army. Though pure barbarians in large numbers would be unthinkable. (Adrianople, anyone?)

I agree that we should have some of those gallo-romans but maybe if you have a loyalty minimiser (basically more likely to rebel & turn to brigands) on smaller armies with no "real romans" (though they actually could be quite loyal to the roman empire)
But also you do not want huge amounts of the "barbarians" in the roman armyy (yes, Adrianople)

Rejoice, folks, for the one and only Seneca is back!

Thanks GKA, but i never been away, just logging in when i feel i can contribute, otherwise i just check the thread.

Back on topic:
i think the Romans didn't want foreign troops on key positions in the army anymore. So heavy cavalry, legionary, and maybe the "spear auxilia" (important to hold the flanks against cavalry ofcourse) will all become Roman. Light cavalry and javalins can be real auxilia.

Question: what was the role of archers in the army around the year 500? i read that in the era of vanilla there was a missile duel where both sides killed each others missile before the real clash begun. In the real clash the missiles didn't had a real role. But how is this around 500?

further i have an prosposal for Post-marian troops:

Govt Building:
Peasants

Barracks:
milites
hasta auxilia (spear)
Legio Meridiem (Southern legion, lorica hamata, fast moving, desert bonus, less armour)
legio Septentrionalis (North, lorica segmenta, combat bonus wood and snow, ambushers?, less speed)
legio orientalis (East, spear armed like the ones in BI, lorica hamata, + a bit armor
legio occidentalis (west, bonus on scrub, +attack)
legionary first cohort
Veterani cohort (strike fear, same use as the imperial guard of Napoleon)
Preatorian Cohort
Preatorian Immunes (Elite)

Stables:
Sagittarius equi (horse archers)
Legionary Cavalry (medium sword cavalry)
Equites lanciarii (spear armed heavy/medium cavalry)
Cataphractos equites Romani (light version of Cataphract)
Equites singulares Augusti (generals bodyguard)

Archery Range:
Roman Javalinmen
Roman Archer
Ballistae
Repeating Ballistae (keep?)
Onagers
Heavy Onagers

PLUS:
Cohors gladiatorum (gladiators, warcry?)

AOR?
Germanic javalinmen
Eastern javalinmen
Germanic archer
Eastern archer
Gallica Romano cavalry (chase cavalry)
Greek roman cavalry (chase cavalry)

I think the AOR department can be improved, but what do you think about it?

I like it, at first glance. I'll get back on this after a thorough read-through.

We should name the Eastern Archers as Syrian, though- even if they are available from mroe than just Syria. 'Syrians' were considered the best archers in the Roman army, while Eastern Archers sounds more like Eastern Infantry- farmers with bows. Not impressive, and gives a completely incorrect idea about these fellows.

Also, the Romans could adapt extremely well. I am thinking the trigger city idea might be applicable for all AoR units- once they get access to the AoR site, they can retrain the units anywhere. There were auxilia units on Hadrian's wall that received replacements from the local populace (retrained) and the unit itself brought them up to speed regarding skills and equipment. A unit of Syrian archers sent to Gaul, for example, would receive replacements from wherever they could, and the unit centurions would bring the recruits up to snuff.

Maybe consider this for the Romans, both East and West?

Very impressive, Seneca - we need more contributions from you

Govt Building:
Peasants Vigiles - urban police.

Barracks:
Milites - spear militia.
hasta Auxilia - kind of like Limitanei.
Legionary First Cohort
Veterani Cohort - fear bonus, same use as the Imperial Guard of Napoleon.
Praetorian Cohort <- repetitive if standing together with the Veterani and the unit below. Either take this or the one below out.
Praetoriani Invictus - uber-Praetorians

"AoR" Legionaries:
Legio Meridiem - southern legionaries, lorica hamata, fast moving, desert bonus, less heavily armoured.
Legio Septentrionalis - northern legionaries, lorica segmenta, combat bonus in woods and snow, ambushers, less speedy.
Legio Orientalis - eastern legionaries, spear-armed like Legio Lanciarii in BI, lorica hamata, medium armour
Legio Occidentalis - western legionaries, bonus on scrub, lorica squamata, stronger attack. (WTH is bonus on scrub - long grass?)

Stables:
Equites Sagittarii - horse archers
Legionary Cavalry - medium sword cavalry
Equites Lanciarii - spear-armed heavy cavalry wearing superb lorica squamata.
Cataphractos equites Romani (light version of Cataphract) <- we won't need those if the Lanciarii are heavy enough - plus it'd be weird to see Cataphracts in WRE armies as well as ERE armies.
Equites Singulares Augusti - General's Bodyguard

Archery Range:
Roman Javalinmen Velites?
Roman Archers - armoured and long-range.
Bucellarii - they worked, didn't they?
Ballistae
Repeating Ballistae - it's up to the community, but I think they do make the Romans look more like an artillery-strong faction.
Onagers
Heavy Onagers

PLUS:
Cohors gladiatorum (gladiators, warcry?) <- These shock troops might be too overpowering if formed into a normal-sized "cohort".

AoR
To he honest, compared with the excellence demonstrated above, this section sucked pretty bad.

* * *

First of all, I have absolutely no idea whether the Latin names I have used make any sense whatsoever.

Second of all, I also think we need to keep the popular units actually worth keeping from vanilla BI - units like the moderately armoured but full-of-punch Plumbatarii, the Bucellarii crossbowmen, and the spear bastions that are the Auxilia Palatina.

If we decide not to keep the Praeventores/Arcani around as battlefield units, I suggest we transform them into Retinue members, or rename the Roman's "Spy" agent as Arcanus - if possible, which I doubt.

Finally, please keep in mind that although a Rome powerful once more is obviously the main idea of this mod, we're not exactly going for OP-ness in the roster.

Please discuss!

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-13-2011 @ 07:46 PM).]

If we're going to keep 1st Cohorts, they should still be labelled Occidental, Oriental etc etc. Keeps the RP in order.

Milites - spear militia.
hasta Auxilia - kind of like Limitanei.

Limitanei - crummy spear militia. I'd rather have Limitanei than Auxilia (refers to non-Roman soldiers, which is apparently a no-no) or Milites (refers to soldiers in general).

Praetoriani Invictus - uber-Praetorians

Not OP at all... And Praetorians are reknown for corruption. Palatinae all the way (semi-rhymes.)

The Praetorians were disbanded after auctioning off the throne. Severus did not like that at all, and removed them. Permanently.

One of his descendants enfranchised every male in the Empire. From that point on, Auxilia were not longer peregrini but full citizens. Auxilia did the tasks the legionaries could not- patrol, archery, cavalry, etc. The legions themselves were changing to a lighter, more mobile force that eventually fell apart.

This mod is about going back to their roots, in a sense. Thus Praetorians, who guarded the praetor (general) would be a Guards unit. The Palatinae were the elite, mobile forces- this they would remain.

How could I, I must contribute for my people.

Yes, Im back, after a long period of surviving without my RTW, but finally I got it back. Ever since I've been playing it. Most of all my WRE campaign on BI, very hard dif, I still got my skill. It's going well. Anyway back to the revival.

first, were bucellari historically accurate(also if they are, they NEED an animation change, have any of you seen how they shoot?).

I vow to keep the repeating ballistae, and the praeventores(later Arcani).

Is it possible to give the faction leader a dif gaurd, if so, they should have the elite,equites augusti singulares.

Well im dry of ideas atm, maybe I should find my inspiration, time for more BI.

There is an animation pack which has better animations for just about everything. We should probably integrate that, on top of the bugfix mod as a base.

Faction leader bodyguards: nope, afraid not. That sort of scripting isn't available in RTW.

The WRE was almost gone at the start of this campaign.

The last emperors were mostly weak and made things worse rather than better. This might be an eye-opener to the Romans.
(at least according to their stories)the old Romans fought for their country with great courage and they would do everything to maintain their power. Example, during the 1st punic war when rome lost another fleet due to a storm, it didn't have enough money to rebuild the fleet, but rich citizens contributed personal money.

Basically: If the romans are to regain their former glory, they need to drop the corruption and decadency and regain their modesty, courage and ideals. This, and the weak emperors, could be a reason for the romans to revolt against their emperors and rebuild the republic.

It's just an idea, but what do you think of such radical political reforms?

Oh, btw, werent the arcani pagan units? That would make little sense in the now firmly christian west.

[This message has been edited by Thompsoncs (edited 02-16-2011 @ 06:01 PM).]

We had a radical political reform fifty years ago when Aetius killed Valentinian who was trying to assassinate him, remember? The reason we let 'Rome' survive was that we allowed the Aetians to be strong emperors who instilled the traits you mentioned into the last dregs of the empire.

Democracy and republics were pretty much dead in this period where kings were consolidating power to themselves. It would not be until the Vikings came and showed that local power was needed to protect the people that local lords began gaining power away from the central authority, and even later before the people could get any themselves.

Rome moved from a Republic to a monarchy because, among other things, the old Republican system had broken down with the empire growing so large. That said, there is a case for reverting since the 'Roman' realm is now so small- but then again, what will happen if the Romans are successful in reviving an empire? Another civil war?

Best we leave the emperors in charge.

The Arcani were never religiously associated, and were instead Imperial agents working for the Empire in Roman Britain. They weren't quite military units fighting in the open field, but were instead more like the spies as individual agents.

Thus they would still make sense in Christianized Rome - and by the way, speaking of Christianity in Rome, I guess a reversion back to their old gods is a no-no?

RE: Auxilia

I was going to propose that we do Limitanei into Auxilia, but of course the "anti-barbarian sentiment" means that is not very wise. My idea was to keep the urban police and the proper support spearmen separated as two different units. We could integrate them into just Milites, though that would blur the line between amateurism and professionalism...

RE: Praetorians & Palatinae

Praetorians as bodyguards, Palatinae as the tag for elite field units.

@Above post: Sorry, but what exactly are you proposing?

It was a reply to the proposal above mine. As to my reply, it was summed up in this line:

Quoted from Me:

Best we leave the emperors in charge.

Clear?

No not you, Terikel, I started writing Post 36 before you started writing yours, it seems, and I was referring to Thompsoncs' post.

Let's work on the Pre-Reforms roster, shall we?

My post essentially came down to this:
Weak emperors, corruption and dramatically reduced size of the WRE could make it possible to return senatorial semi-democracy.

But indeed, I should look here more often Terikel, since indeed the aetian dynasty now rules firmly in the WRE. I'm sorry, just too busy with my own aoe1 mod.

Still, giving more power/influence to the senatorial class could be part of aetius plan to increase stability. It was only after equistrians took over the former senatorial functions that the roman empire really fell in chaos and civil war. Senators usually knew each other and were much fewer in number than equestrians. The emperor could pick some loyal and possibly capable senators himself for the functions, thus reducing chance of corrupt and disloyal generals and governors.

It's ingame effect could be that rebelling roman cities/generals no longer form a shadow empire, but just regular rebels. Thus reducing chance of civil war.

There is no WRER faction now, so regular rebels is all you'll get. Disloyal generals won't rebel, however, they'll just be easier to bribe.

Off topic: Thompsoncs, what's your mod for AoE?

Look at http://ageofitalymod.webs.com/ (or click my personal url). It spans the roman kingdom, republic and I might include parts of the imperial stages of rome.

And yes, after taking another look at the map thread I notice the rebel romans are gone. Then perhaps roman generals, who should now fight more for their country and roman glory than personal gain, should be harder to bribe?

[This message has been edited by Thompsoncs (edited 02-17-2011 @ 11:43 AM).]

I agree with Drakontos's points of disloyalty not being counted towards rebellion but bribing & also Thompsoncs point of more loyalty in most roman generals
Just to make clear were definitely not having anything like the senate in RTW & the council of nobles in M2TW in this

There will be a faction leader (Imperator Romanum or whatever) a faction heir (Princeps Senatus) and no superfaction like the Senate giving orders.

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 02-18-2011 @ 01:52 AM).]

small question where i was thinking of:
the post-reform legionaries, should they be able to form testudo or shieldwall?

could that also depend on the region, like with the northern/southern/eastern/western legionaries?
testudo against east if they have more archers, or shield wall for western legionaries who fight mostly infantry or something like that
does that make sense?
or is it possible?

If they can make a different legionary unit for each direction, of course the different units could be given different abilities like Testudo, but abilities most associated with Germanic peoples like Shield Wall or Schiltron call for more in-depth consideration.

Of course, being a famously adaptive people, and after all those years of battlefield contact with the Germanic tribes, the surviving Romans might have seen the need to learn from the enemy...

Remember that the Legio Orientalis are spear-armed, because they need to be in order to counter quality Sassanid cavalry.

would it be too weird if they could phalanx?

Instead of giving the Orientalis pila, they could have a sword and a spear. That way they could maintain their role as heavy infantry, while also being prepared to tackle the Sassanid cavalry.

Balancing might be an issue, however.

I think that they should have weaker sword and stronger spear, as their primary idea would be countering cavalry

I disagree.

Roman infantry has always been about defeating other infantry. Given the foe's predominance on cavalry, I can see the Romans adapting their formations to include the spear, but they have always been swordsmen. Remember, these Orientalis legions might end up fighting somewhere else, against someone else.

Don't weaken the swords.