This may be my own opinion & you may not agree but i reckon the burgidians should stick to their "wild" barbarian roots mainly with some disciplined civilised troops
What do you think?

Also will they be mainly a infantry faction?

Vanilla BI faction roster:

Peasants
Levy Spears
Chosen Axes
Night Raiders
Golden Band
Lombard Archers
Chosen Archers
Wardogs
Barb Cav
Burgundian Lancers
Nobles
Lombard Beserkers
Onagers
Boats
Large Boats

Golden Band have to go. Lombard Archers and Beserkers too. Lancers from Vanilla implies a light cav focus. Do we follow this, blending the Alemanni ambush focus with Frankish Heavy Cav, or do we look for something else?

Faction Leader will be Rex Burgundii, non?

The Burgundi should certainly keep some of their germanic ways. I'd say they should be a bit less advanced version of the Franks. Less armor, but more brutal warriors. Maybe some sort of semi-berserker? Controlable, but still fighting like beast. I think focus should be reasonable infantry with good light/medium cavalry.

The Burgundians should keep Germanic ways with a bit of Roman ways. Berserkers should be kept, but not with their name as "Lombard Berserkers" but as Burgundian Berserkers and with different appearance, but with the same stats as the Lombard Berserkers. Also we should change the name of the Chosen Axeman into simply Axemen because I've noticed that some factions in BI have chosen Axemen, but no simple Axemen. There can't be an elite type of a unit if there isn't a common type of that unit. So we will add simple axeman to this faction, or we will change the Chosen Axemen's name into simply Axemen, but we won't change their stats.

I think that beserkers should be gone, because that part of the history of the germanic tribes, or at least for the burgundians is gone, and now they are becoming semi-civilized, blending with the local roman culture where they settle.

I do think that the less-civilized then the franks idea is good, so maybe we should up there attack stats and lower there defense in general?

Nah, berserkers should be kept, they are the military symbol of the barbarian tribes, although they shouldn't be as strong as their Norse counter-parts. But if we plan on making the Burgundians semi-civilized then we can remove them along with Golden bands and we will replace them with some "civilized" units.

They are going to be semi-civilized, and beserkers have no place in the game other than in the more barbarian tribes of vanilla BI, like alemmani and that other one that had it.

Thankfully, they settled and after being crushed a time or two, concentrated on making wine instead of problems.

Good line

Off the top of my head, I propose Breweries/ Vineyards to grant some trading bonus.

I then add my vote to denying Berserkers to the Burgundians.

Finally, I shall reply with more suggestions later after reviewing the wiki articles on the Burgundians.

Good luck finding anything. Them wiki articles be lacking!

Town Hall:
Tier 1 - Barbarian Peasants/Vigiles

Infantry:
Tier 2 - Levy Spearmen
Tier 3 - Foresters (light 2-handed axemen, copied from the Alemanni)
Tier 3 - Spear Comitatus
Tier 3 - Noble Sons (borrowed from the Saxons - rich sons well-equipped, but mediocre really)
Tier 4 - Axe Comitatus
Tier 5 - Dismounted Nobles

Cavalry:
Tier 2 - Raiders (skirmish cav)
Tier 3 - Mounted Warband (generic light spear cav)
Tier 4 - Burgundian Cavalry (medium lance cav)
Tier 4 - Mounted Nobles (heavy cav)
Tier 5 - Warlord

Missile & Siege:
Tier 3 - Skirmishers
Tier 4 - Archers
Tier 4 - Ballistae
Tier 5 - Chosen Archers*
Tier 5 - Onagers


(*I've went through the rosters of all the done factions, and not one of them contain Chosen Archers, but only "domesticated" versions like "Gothic Archers", "Viking Bowmen", "Frankish Archers" and the like... which means extra unit slot.)

Every single one of the above is borrowed in one way or another from the Burgundians' neighbors - except for the Chosen Archers - and although that sounds like a bad thing, the roster itself isn't that shabby at all - not to sound egostitic or anything.

Comments?

I like it, but maybe the missile/siege roster should be moved down a level?
tier 3 seems a bit high for skirmishers, but maybe that's just me...

I like the rest, you did a good job synthesizing a good roster with only one original unit, seems quite varied and would be fun to play!

So, looks like we can close this thread now. /jk

Clarification and Notes:

Most of the Infantry roster is shared with the Alemanni, except for Noble Sons which is from the Saxons. Levy Spearmen are of course shared with many of the Germanic factions.

For Cavalry, Raiders are from the Franks, where I've checked to see that the precise nature of the unit is unclear (leading to the generic "skirmish cav" caption). Perhaps jav cav?

Mounted Warband comes from the Alemanni again, while Mounted Nobles come from Frankia. Tier-ing is the same, FYI. Burgundian Cavalry was originally an AoR unit suggested in the Ostrogothic discussions, and I am not entirely sure how good we want to make the unit. Though I am sure that the AoR version will only be recruitable once Burgundy itself (the capital region) is conquered by another faction, to avoid weird scenarios where Burgundy's enemies use her own warriors against her.

Missile-wise, I do see your concern, Rinster, regarding the Tier 3 status of Skirmishers. I don't know... There aren't much I can find detailing strengths and weaknesses of the Burgundians, other than their East Germanic roots (like the Goths, Lombards and even Vandals), and putting Skirmishers (javelin-throwers) at Tier 3 isn't that big a deal if the faction itself isn't particularly missile-focused. And of course they'll have Archers and siege weapons like they used to.

The general direction seems to be pointing towards a standard Germanic roster with some inevitable degree of Roman influence, and some wild, tribal flavoring tossed in. The Burgundians did eventually fall to the Franks in 534 (3 decades after start of our mod), so a more standard roster seems quite apt... Don't know, I really.

I agree with GeneralKickAss for the units. We don't know much about the Burgundians, so we should keep that unit roster including Chosen Archers, but i don't think that the Burgundians had Ballistae and Onagers although they were influenced by the romans. Anyway to balance the factions i think we should give them the Onagers, but not the Ballistae.

if they had onagers, wouldn't they defintley have ballistae?

Well, vanilla Ballistae aren't really that much of a threat, no matter who their targets are.

The vanilla Burgundian roster boasts Onagers, as per "latest intel", so I guess it wouldn't be that much of a stretch of imagination to throw in Ballistae as well which are, after all, sort of an inferior variant compared with their Onager bros - at least in the game.

RE: Navy

Doesn't look like they had much to do with the sea either, but basic Boats and maybe Large Boats might suffice. Would Biremes make sense?

I also give my vote for no berserkers-the only people who should have them anyway is the Vikings.

I think maybe we should consider the geography of these men by making them a mix between the Franks and the Lombards. They should have good cavalry, but not necessarily disciplined.

found something interesting
here (page 36)

The Burgundian militairy had for sometime seen the syncretism of barbarian and Roman institutions. From the second half of the fifth century, Gallo-Romans served in the Burgundian army. In addition there was at least one noteworthy unit in the Burgundian military which was composed completely of Gallo-Romans.


The important men of the kingdom, Gallo-Roman and Burgundia n magnates a like, had for along time supported private bands of armed retainers. Sidonius Apollinaris, whose writings provide a great deal of information on late Roman society in the Burgundian kingdom, praises his son-in-law Ecdicius for using his private army against the Visigoths as a public service. On another occasion, however, Sidonius complains bitterly to his friend Thaumastus about certain important men whose access to the Burgundian king endangers
the favored position usually enjoyed by the Gallo-Roman senatorials. Among Sidonius's criticisms of these men is their lack of noblesse oblige.

[...]
The sportulae which were due the bodyguards (whom Sidonius pedantically calls praetoriani) may be compared to the buccellata from which the buccettarii got their name. A more prosaic writer might have used a term like sportularii to describe these guards because they were provided with sportulae. The military retainers who received the stipendia paludatis were probably former Roman soldiers who continued to wear at least part of their uniforms- namely, the cloak (paludamentum). Procopius, writing almost a century later, noted that even in his day the descendants of erstwhile Roman soldiers in Gaul still wore their uniforms. During the later Roman empire imperial military officers often became local magnates and used their troops in essentially private capacities. These magnates were neither senatorials nor barbarians; never the less they had considerable influence and power.

So at least the Burgundians should get a (gallo-)romanised unit. Further in the source it said Burgundian kings used mercenaries to guard their forts, these were mostly Franks. So that part of the unit tree is correct.
If the Burgundians get a romanised unit, their can't be a unit of berserker anymore in the army. But if we decide to not give them any romanised unit, i think it might be interesting for the gameplay to give them a unit of drugged soldiers.

It would be more accurate if they didn't have ballistas. I think so because ballistas are more complicated than Onagers, thus harder to build for ignorant semi-barbarians. But if you guys see a good reason for adding them then add them, I'm not stopping you.

I doubt the Burgundians were still ignorant semi-barbarians at that point. They weren't as advanced as the Franks or the Visigoths or the Romano-British, sure, but compared with the Saxons or the Norse, they wouldn't be too backwater.

Still. If we drop the Ballistae for the Burgundians, it's no great loss really. If we add them, it's not a great bonus. Thus add or take Ballistae is not that important a decision. Since they didn't have Ballistae in vanilla BI, but only Onagers, let's stick to tradition, keep Ballistae off the new Burgundian roster, and thus end this little debate right here. OK?

Once we've got that out of the way, allow me to express my explicit pleasure at the sight of a Seneca post

A Gallo-Roman unit? Hmmm... Are we talking about a Romanized Gallic heavy infantry unit, an spear auxilia unit, or Sportularii from that text?

It doesn't become really clear in the text what the unit looks like. But my guess is, that the Sportularii were decendants of Gallic legionairs who went back to their home lands after their service in the Roman army.

According Sidonius they served in the Burgundian army the same way as the preatoriani in the Roman army, an elite infantry bodyguard. Otherwise Sidonius wouldn't mention the term preatoriani, but just called the soldiers Sportulae.

Well, my point was not in the balancing of the factions, but in historical accuracy. But, i'm happy that this little debate ended. And yeah we should add a Gallo-Roman Unit, some type of Swordsmen in my opinion, because the spear was not so popular between the Gallic tribes. Oh and by the way, why nobody is discussing in the WRE thread? No new ideas or it will be closed because everything was decided?

[This message has been edited by TiGeR1812 (edited 03-20-2011 @ 04:58 AM).]

So I've checked the meaning of Sportula/e and it means "food or money given by patrons to clients". Kind of like bucellata (hardtack biscuit given to soldiers), yes.

Sportularii, thus, could work as the Gallo-Roman unit in the Burgundian roster, but I also feel that it's a bit too "cheesy", or and snazzy for a Latin name... Don't know...

But if people like it, we could replace the Tier 5 Dismounted Nobles with them, with pretty much similar abilities save for Roman equipment styles.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 03-23-2011 @ 09:00 PM).]

Burgundian Lancers and Dismounted Burgundian Lancers instead of Burgundian Cavalry/Spear Comitatus? It does give them a more unique feel, I think.

@GKA. Snazzy is not a synonym of cheesy. If something is snazzy, it's a good thing.

*EDIT* Skirmishers should be tier 2. Seriously. Tier 3 is just silly. Unless they're plate mailed and hurling lightsabers attached to sticks.

[This message has been edited by Drakontos (edited 03-23-2011 @ 05:28 PM).]

Anyone else feeling unsure about this faction as a real faction?

Because I don't really think there is much individuality associated with the roster, and that the generic units can probably be transferred to any other immigrant faction with minimal adjustments.

Which is why I propose we re-make the Burgundians into a Major Rebel Faction, saving us one valuable faction slot, that can be used for more easily individualized factions - maybe like the Celts, the Suevi, or a Roman sub-faction like the ERE Rebels. You know, a more unique faction we can have fun with

That is, unless you guys come up with a better idea, because right now I can't honestly feel less interested in this faction.

Well, we already have the ERE rebels - they're the Copts! Suevi or Celts would be nice though.

I'm definitely not feeling the Burgundians though, much as I'd like to see them there - they did play quite a part in the Dark Ages, if not quite in the form they started off. Perhaps if we were to plan out the Suevi, Celts and Burgundians, we could then pick between them at a later date depending on how they turn out?

Perhaps have a thread dedicated for faction slots, where, once we've done all the factions, we can say "Hey, Y faction is very generic, maybe replace it with X and have Y be rebel" like you've said.

I think it would be better, if we are to make our decision now about which faction to do for real, and which to save for the Major Rebels - just seems less time-consuming.

So I was thinking the Burgundians could become something like "Burgundian Kingdom", and be granted the provinces in SE Gaul, a strong starting military presence (in case the Franks and Ostrogoths are aggressive), and an AoR unit called Burgundian Lancers/Cavalry in their starting regions - and perhaps North Italy too. Or they could be mercenaries.

As for the substitute, since the ERE Rebels are already done in the form of the Copts, it should come down to a duel between the Celts/Gaels and the Suevi.

Making a fun faction of the Suevi would be pretty easy and it is my belief that certain individuals among us would be more than happy to do them good, but I also believe that doing the Celts could be very interesting, not to mention its potential as a marketing tool on some of our British players.

Therefore... therefore, discuss!

I'm sure our resident Celt could do a nice job of supplying information if we do a Celtic like faction. The Suebi are mainly Germans that went to Spain, so they'd be a small faction.


I say Celts.

Yeah, the Celts would be far more unique. I have no idea what we've give the Suevi. They'd just balance the map out nicely. :/

We could use the faction as an 'independent barbarian states' faction a la XGM. The minor factions controled by said AI faction would actually work a lot better than simple rebels. Provincial campaigns could give the player control of it as specific peoples.

?

Well, if it is possible, it seems like a good idea, to add depth and more stuff(for lack of a better word) to the mod

although the celts would also be a good unique faction also, so that could be fun too

I can see the superior appeal the Celts hold, but regarding help from our resident Celt/Briton, I'm not that sure since he's been so busy lately.

The Suevi could inherit a few generic Germanic units, and be able to draw on the strength of the local Merc/AoR resources. We can even give them a Merc Barracks to help train mercs cheaper.

So I've done some reading on wiki about the Suevic Kingdom, and it is as I've heard (and feared) - the Suevi were a bunch of wimps, never posing much of a threat to anyone around them in the brief <200 years their kingdom stood. Not enough justification for a real faction, I think.

However, they'd do great as a map balancing faction to share Spain with the Visigoths - but that's about it.

The Celts would start with Caledonia and probably Hibernia too, and although they weren't particularly outstanding or politically significant - not to mention the fact that they will over-crowd Britain - they would make an interesting, quite playable faction.

Since this is a community mod, by the community, for the community, perhaps a community vote is in order - if the mods approve.

If so, I vote the Suevi. Britain's got the Romano-British and the Saxons already, while Spain has only the Visigoths.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-01-2011 @ 03:57 AM).]

Spain has the Visigoths... and at least three or four rebels provinces.

And if the Caliphate gets going, they have that as well coming at them.

I'm in favor of keeping the Burgundians, they are there to prevent the Franks from growing to fast (i guess). When they are a faction they can expand, and be a more stable country to fight against the neghbours. As rebel faction they can't. And historically they were a power to be reconned with, Clovis conquered them around 534, but they were at war since 500. "Which means 34 years of war" And ofcourse after our time the Burgundians play a major role in European history.

We have some unique factions allready. One non-unique germanic faction gives space for more unique units for other factions. If we want one more unique unit we can maybe call it Bornholm/Burgundaholmr guards. (referring to the roots of the Burgundians, so they would be norse like armed)
Although i'm not really in favor of doing that. The roster so far seems nice after a few small edits. (Gallo-Romano unit and skirmisher+archer 1 tier down)

[This message has been edited by Seneca Monachus (edited 04-02-2011 @ 06:27 AM).]

Yeah I suppose the Burgundians do deserve "real faction" status for their historical significance... the Suevi and Celts wouldn't be as important historically, and each had their undeniable flaws.

RE: Unique Units

Burgundian Lancers would be the unique cav unit, while for the Gallo-Roman infantry unit, I really don't have an idea what we call it. Sportularii is too fancy (agree?).

Regarding the unit nature, though, I do have some idea. Perhaps a semi-foederati, Sword-and-Pila unit? If you look at the roster they do actually lack a properly heavy-ish swordsmen unit - since Noble Sons would be quite weak. So what do you think?

RE: Diplomatic status

The Burgundians will start out allied with the Visigoths to their west, standing united against their common Frankish foes. Wiki does mention several military interflows between the Burgundians and the Visigoths around that time period (the Burgundian prince or some other leader taking his men to Spain to help fight the Suevi, for instance).

I totally agree with your post.
A good legionairy-like unit is what the burgunians need in the infantry. Now all we need is a proper name for this Gallo-Roman legionary cohort/foederati/auxilia/warband or however you want to call them.

What about Aegidius guards or Syagrius (Refference to Rex Romanorum Aegidius and Rex Romanorum Syagrius, Gallo-Roman leaders who created a Roman rump state at the fall of the Roman Empire.
Alhough i have to say Burgundian territory and the territory of the kings mentioned above don't match.)

[This message has been edited by Seneca Monachus (edited 04-02-2011 @ 06:50 AM).]

There appears to have been auxiliary regiments back in the 2nd Century with names such as:

Cohortes II Gallorum veterana equitata
Cohortes IV Gallorum equitata
Cohortes V Gallorum
Cohortes VI Gallorum
Cohortes I Hispanorum equitata

So "Cohortes Gallorum" could work - though it might be quite a stretch to insert a Roman unit name in a Burgundian roster, but hey - we want a Gallo-Roman unit, and I don't think it gets better than this.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-02-2011 @ 10:56 AM).]

Maybe spear armed legionaries, or dismounted Burgundian cavalry wielding swords?

Personally, I like the idea of a Gallo-Roman unit better than a dismounted Burgundian cavalrymen unit.

A spear-and-sword infantry unit is an alternative though.

Town Hall:
Tier 1 - Barbarian Peasants

Infantry:
Tier 2 - Levy Spearmen
Tier 3 - Foresters (light 2-handed axemen, copied from the Alemanni)
Tier 3 - Spear Comitatus
Tier 3 - Noble Sons (borrowed from the Saxons - rich sons well-equipped, but mediocre really)
Tier 4 - Axe Comitatus
Tier 4 - Cohortes Gallorum* (heavy sword-and-pila Gallo-Roman soldiers. AoR?)
Tier 5 - Dismounted Nobles

Cavalry:
Tier 2 - Raiders (skirmish cav)
Tier 3 - Mounted Warband (generic light spear cav)
Tier 4 - Burgundian Cavalry (heavy lance cav. AoR?)
Tier 4 - Mounted Nobles (heavy cav)
Tier 5 - Warlord

Missile & Siege:
Tier 2 - Skirmishers
Tier 3 - Archers
Tier 4 - Ballistae
Tier 4 - Chosen Archers
Tier 5 - Onagers

* * *

Since nobody said "no" to Cohortes Gallorum (you are supposed to say it out loud, actually), I assume everybody likes it? If so, do we agree that they'll be sword-and-pila types, well-armoured and stuff?

Also, regarding their availablity, perhaps they shouldn't be trainable everywhere - since they are after all Gallo-Romans in Burgundian service, and wouldn't be too happy to campaign too far from their homes and farms and women and children. Thus maybe we should make them an AoR unit, available to whoever (or whomever?) in control of their homeland - assuming most of them warrior types flocked southeast in the face of Frankish aggression?

No pilum, but indeed a spear, for the Gallic. They'd be in 500 AD mode, not 200 AD, meaning the spear versus the growing threat of cavalry will be important.

Like auxilia...

Hmmm, I see your point. The Franks will not be pleased with this...

Also, the Burgundian Cavalry could have a Merc version, instead of an AoR one, since they should be quite tough-ass?

For the special retinue item, may I propose some sort of Law Code/ Book of Customs thingy called the "Liber Constitutionum sive Lex Gundobada/ Lex Burgundionum/ Lex Gundobada"? It seems the Burgies had a lot to do with writing the earliest Germanic legal codes amongst their peers, something we could turn into a retinue item that grants additional management and law bonuses?

Another one would be the "Lex Romana Burgundionum", which was the separate Burgundian law code for their Roman subjects.

Good ideas!

Adding to the Cohortes Gallorum origin theory, there could be some reference to the recent fall of Syagrius' Kingdom up north to the Franks, and the consequent Gallo-Roman partial exodus to the southeastern parts, where they continue to take up arms in Burgundian armies against the Frankish conquerors in the hope of resisting the Blue Onslaught? (Assuming they'd be willingly assimilated into the Frankish military when Burgundy also falls, of course.)

That said, are we happy with the roster now? Also, ideas for the Faction Symbol, FL and FH titles?

Here's the Duke of Burgundy's coat-of-arms:



Here's the flag of Burgundy:

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-07-2011 @ 01:14 AM).]

So finished I guess? Maybe just the settlements that they live.

The cross of Burgundy was close to a thousand years out of our timeframe. Perhaps we could place a yellow version of our fleur de lis (several) on top of the stripes of the Duke's CoA?

Fleur de lis on top of diagonal blue-and-yellow stripes sounds heavy.

That cross is out of the time-frame, but like the fleur de lis - we could hint at its origins by doing a toned-down version here?

Like the Roster, think its good
Also I agree with GKA's flag idea (down-toned version of flag)

The vanilla Burgundians are purple, a color I kind of dig, in the strictly healthy sense that purple represents kingship, power and prestige. (and eggplants!)

Either we keep the vanilla symbol, which I think isn't bad at all - except I've no idea what it actually represents - or we do a white Burgundian cross on a purple field, sort of like Scotland's from M2TW.

As for the titles, I guess we could use these:

Faction Leader: Rex Burgundiorum (Rex is getting old...)
Faction Heir: (see below)

Quoted from wiki:

Comes Argentoratensis -- Count in charge of the defense of part of Gaul (Gallia).
Comes Avernorum -- Count in charge of the defense of part of Gaul (Gallia).

Those were imperial offices, which we could use for lack of a better name. "Comes Gallorum" could do as well...

Dux Provincia or however it works out in proper latin