Gepids
In the 6th century, the free warriors of Merovingian culture were buried fully armed, with sword, spear, and iron-bound shield, yet such weapons are found even more rarely in Transylvania than in the Gepidic graves of the Hungarian Plain. Contemporary sources indicate that the Gepids had few 'heavily-armed warriors': in 552, they contributed only 400 such soldiers to Narses' war against Totila, while the Pannonian Langobards sent 3,000.

In Transylvania, sets of swords and spears are scarce, and shield bosses from iron-bound shields even scarcer. It may be surmised, therefore, that the Gepidic military class was small in number, and that the Transylvanian Gepids felt secure. Free warriors equipped with only a spear are more numerous. Some of the sword- and spear-bearing soldiers also had a bow and arrows. The bow alone was the common equipment of 'semi-free' people, who were obliged to serve as archers.

Beginning in the 530s, the Transylvanian Gepids were led by a nobility that was neither numerous nor particularly wealthy.

So the gepids were not that wealthy, the nobility wasn't numerous and their army was thus lacking heavy armed warriors. The Gepid armies consisted mainly of (light) infantry and archers according to the above. Because a horse is expensive, just like good armor.

So then increase the attack and mobility of the infantry and archers.

So should we make the roster predominantly focused on light infantry on archers, with limited and/or poor cavalry?
Or one good cavalry unit and one heavy infantry and the rest light?
Either way i feel like it should be mostly light infantry, with just a main weapon, and no secondary/throwing weapon, and then decent archers

The Gepids were by no means a steppe horse faction, but their own infantry wasn't generally heavy either, which leaves them either a shock infantry focus (two-handed swords, baby) or a missile one, or a bit of both.

Before we make that decision, it is worth taking a look at a wiki quote Terikel used a few months ago to justify the Gepid faction.

Quoted from Wiki:

the Gepids and other people allied to defeat Attila's horde of would-be successors, who were dividing up the subjugated peoples like cattle, and led by Ardaric, they broke the Hunnic power in the Battle at the River Nedao in 454:

...a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugii breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suevi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors. (Jordanes, l.259)

So perhaps we could have a similar but less elaborate confederate system with the Alemanni? The Gepids are the boss, obviously, and they will lead warriors from allied peoples, who can supply troop types the Gepids can't normally field in large enough numbers, like average (as opposed to elite) heavy swordsmen from the Alans, some cavalry from the Rugii (no idea about that tribe), spearmen with shields from the Suevi, and some Goth Pikemen. Meanwhile the Gepids themselves would bring the missile component and maybe the shock element too.

Or we can weaken this faction by taking away the Alan heavy infantry, making them rely on pikes, bastard swords and bows, which sound more fun.

I think we should mainly focus the Gepids on shock infantry and/or archers. What we can do to aid them is give them an allied barracks instead of an stable (higher tier buidling). So they can get cavalry and heavy infantry, but only at later stages. This means ofcourse that the gepids will have no cavalry at early stages, what can be a nice challenge.

As i posted before the Gepids had a nobility, but that wasn't numerous and wealthy. So maybe we can do a half sized medium cavalry with a great charge and/or ambush from town hall. (If we go on with the allied barracks instead of stable idea) Like this the nobels aren't numerous nor wealthy enough to arm themself to heavy cavalry, but they stay usefull.

[This message has been edited by Seneca Monachus (edited 05-21-2011 @ 03:52 AM).]

The idea of a pike-shock-missile trio roster appeals to me more than a traditional well-rounded one with conventional heavy infantry, where you can't really focus much on developing any one element for fear of overpowering the Gepids which would be a problem for campaign development since they weren't that powerful compared with neighbors like the Lombards, the Ostrogoths, or the Slavs, the first of whom eventually destroyed them sixty years after our campaign start.

One way could be to exclude conventional (as opposed to elite) heavy infantry in the roster altogether, allowing focus to be lavished on the other segments - missile and shock infantry. Why those two? Because the research suggested missile troops to be a Gepid strength, or at least what they can field on a massed basis, shock infantry because they do wonders to gameplay and base themselves on the scarcity of good shields among the Gepids, if "base-able". Missile is of course a mix of javelin skirmishers and archers, who can be made cheaply available and highly cost-effective. Gepid shock infantry, however, should not compare to the berserkers of the Norse or Alemanni, but should come closer to the Chosen Axemen of the Saxons or, more iconically, Germania from RTW, except that they would carry great-swords, not battle-axes.

Regarding the elite warriors raised amongst the predominant but only moderately wealthy and few-in-number (turns out innumerous isn't a word, thanks spell-checker!) noble class, why not make them elite heavy infantry like we did with the Saxons? They could be half-sized and the justification be given in the unit description, but otherwise let's not make them particularly strong or special since judging from Seneca's dig, they weren't either of those.

Anybody like the idea of the pike-missile-shock-infantry combo? I'm unsure about it, although it could be the thing that makes the Gepids special. Goth Pikemen... Gepid Pikemen... dunno.

My research showed them to be lazy or slow Goths.

Maybe give them Gothic infantry, but crap cavalry? That would be in keeping with the the tales of them. The Huns did not rely on Gepid cavalry- they had their own. Same with missiles. But they needed infantry. Who better than the Goths and Alans? History says Attila favored his Gepid allies... Could this be why?

We certainly could give them a unit from the Gothic roster for heavy infantry, but as I have said in the post above you I don't think they should carry average heavy infantry, not because the archeological evidence suggested so, but because I want to make them a uniquely challenging and entertaining faction to play. If we give them a Gothic Sword unit, they won't be as special, while the DARR experience becomes just a tad more repetitive.

On a lighter note, pikemen would fit the "lazy and slow" stereotype perfectly, would they not?

Bit anachronistic though - pike formations were a fair way off being fashionable in 500AD.

A heavy focus on infantry would certainly set them a bit apart from the surrounding civs, though pikeman don't seem like a very good idea.

Btw, it's good to see some activity again. I've been checking this forum quite often, but no new post were there for a long time.

Pikeman to me seem to be a bit too civilized for barbarian Gepids, they just seem to be more civilized than they would have.

just a thought...

A heavy focus on infantry would certainly set them a bit apart from the surrounding civs

And who are those again? The ERE, the WRE, or the Ostrogoths? Only the Slavs might carry fewer heavy infantry-based armies than those three - though I really have no idea on that.

Sorry Drak, not specifically the pike of the Flemings or the Scots. Please read on.

Quoted from Terikel:

If you read Caesar's Commentaries, paragraph LII, he specifically mentions the Germans "fighting in their usual phalanx". Many think it was more a spear-wall than actual phalanx, while others think the term phalanx simply means block of men tightly formed up.

LII.--Caesar appointed over each legion a lieutenant and a questor, that
every one might have them as witnesses of his valour. He himself began
the battle at the head of the right wing, because he had observed that
part of the enemy to be the least strong. Accordingly our men, upon the
signal being given, vigorously made an attack upon the enemy, and the
enemy so suddenly and rapidly rushed forward, that there was no time for
casting the javelins at them. Throwing aside [therefore] their javelins,
they fought with swords hand to hand. But the Germans, according to
their custom, rapidly forming a phalanx, sustained the attack of our
swords. There were found very many of our soldiers who leaped upon the
phalanx, and with their hands tore away the shields, and wounded the
enemy from above. Although the army of the enemy was routed on the left
wing and put to flight, they [still] pressed heavily on our men from the
right wing, by the great number of their troops. On observing which, P.
Crassus, a young man, who commanded the cavalry--as he was more
disengaged than those who were employed in the fight--sent the third
line as a relief to our men who were in distress.

The Germans from five centuries ago had some sort of a spear-wall - an effective one too. I'm not saying it should be as powerful as the Hoplite or Macedonian phalanxes - I'm saying that it should be more like a Levy Pikemen unit with crappy armour and attack but could be turned into the staple of the Gepid battleline around which their quality light infantry, shock infantry, and elite heavy infantry can deliver their own killing blows. Sounds sexy enough?

That's still 500 years off... I appreciate that I'm not doing a very good job of providing alternatives, but I really don't see anything remotely resembling a phalanx fitting into the timeframe.

Heavy Spear and skirmisher focus with some elite Sword units and very limited cavalry could work. Javelinmen armed with spears instead of daggers?

They really aren't proving any more unique than the Suevi would have been, however!

Which is why I'm advocating a unit fighting in close formation with long spears to the front. You don't have to call the special ability "Form Phalanx", because a classical Macedonian phalanx's neither what I suggested nor historically accurate. Instead, call it a "Spear Wall" so we can have a more different faction out of the Gepids without committing gross inaccuracy.

And speaking of accuracy, pikes aren't actually that inaccurate, if Jordanes mentioned their use by the Goths in the Battle of the River Nedao, though admittedly he might just be talking about spears that were longer than the usual length, not the kind commonly in use in Medieval European armies.

A javelin and heavy spear focus are quite boring, in my opinion. We don't need a new Numidia in DARR. Two-handed swordsmen, spearmen fighting in close-order without shields, abundant archers and skirmishers with basic and advanced variants, infantry general's bodyguard (representing the limited elite heavy infantry amongst the Gepids), one crappy light cavalry unit, and we're done.

Between the Gepids and the Suevi, I'd say the former provides more room for a more innovative and interesting roster. There's not much to work with if we do the Suevi, while with an obscure faction like the Gepids we can get away with minor inaccuracies like the two-handed swordsmen or the spear-wall.

One thing about the Gepids are certain though: they love fighting with bows and arrows. This is also part of the reason I proposed a spear-wall unit, since they would go perfectly with the presumably excellent Gepid archers who should be vulnerable to cavalry charges and can shoot away safely behind the protection of their pikemen bros, while their warlords lead their heavily-armed household troops in from the flanks for charges against attacking enemy infantry, preceded by shock troops wielding fearsome bastard swords that slice indiscriminately into man and horse alike into pieces of carrion...

Spear-wielding bowmen, in that case.

Infantry bodyguard are problematic. Generals can be one-hit killed by charges, as I understand it.


Weee neeeed moooorre threads to stimulate discussion! The problem with such a glacial pace is that everyone gets bored and leaves!

That is true, so perhaps you can go over to the WRE thread, look over the symbol suggestions, and help us reach a decision sooner.

Spear-wielding bowmen, in that case.

Well yes, that would fit very well with the research.

Infantry bodyguard are problematic. Generals can be one-hit killed by charges, as I understand it.

That's hardly enough justification to drop them, seeing as the Romano-British, the Saxons and the Norse all got them already. I mean, we could make the GB cavalry, but we'll have to make some other unit of heavy infantry available (presumably borrowed from the Goths), and that would not ensure their scarcity as an infantry general's bodyguard would, since any Gothic infantry unit borrowed would inevitably be cheaper than a proper GB unit.

Moreover if faced with a cav-heavy enemy you can always place them behind other infantry, or even better, behind or next to the spear-wall-ready pikemen.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 05-31-2011 @ 04:57 AM).]

Evidently I must have had my head in the clouds for the past 8 months... we gave those factions Infantry bodyguard?

I CERTAINLY don't recall that for the RBs.

Check the RB roster in the Master Summary, all the contents of which were copied directly from the final drafts as per final agreement in their respective threads.

Quoted from Mythic:

A word about the infantry bodyguard - this will accentuate the importance of Graal Knights (I'm just calling them that for simplicity's sake) having the legionary eagle ability, because if you want a highly mobile command unit, you will need Graal Knights, giving the RB a bit of a handicap until later on in the game. Until then, they'll have to have a slower command unit in the infantry bodyguards.

Graal Knights later being renamed as Pendragon Knights by yours truly.

Giving these factions infantry bodyguards adds a challenge and a heavy whiff of accuracy. Most, if not all, agreed with it at the time. Deal with it for now.

Huh.

o.O?

Now I definitely want the Marian Reforms changing my generals!

So a draft roster could look something like this:

Town Hall
Barbarian Peasants

Infantry
Goth Spear Warband (No shields, Spear Wall, larger size, AoR)
Suevi Spearmen (Yes shields, AoR)
Gepid Swordsmen (2-handed swords)
King's Guard (GB, half-size, 2 HP, sword-and-shield badasses - pretty much the only badasses, really)

Missile
Skirmishers (the usual crappy one)
Gepid Warriors (archers with spears, good melee)
Gepid Marksmen (expert archers with strong melee, and perhaps good at hiding?)

Cavalry
Iazyges Raiders (or probably just Raiders like the others)
Rugian Horsemen (medium cav, AoR)

Navy
Boats (what else?)

And I'm also thinking about adding a Hun bow unit, but that might not be necessary here unless it's HAs, who would also be AoR.

The idea is once again to make them strong around their homeland, and weak outside of it. The Spear Wall staple and the medium cav can only be supplied from the home province/s, so mercs and other AoRs will fill in the holes.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 06-11-2011 @ 08:47 PM).]

Looks good.

Are we done with these guys now? Any last-minute notes/changes/ideas?

I guess they don't have cool leader titles and the like?

Faction Symbol... something to do with slowness? (nonono... not a snail, please) Or something easy and to the point - Bow and Arrow above Crossed Spears.

Rocks in the top left corner, with 3 spears in the bottom right corner pointing toward the rocks.

How about a group of stick-figures watching the last ship sail off without them...

I love Terikel's idea.

Ditto.

Another idea could be to have three spears arrayed outwards so that they look like the Schiltrom icon or the Yari Wall icon in Shogun 2.

Btw, let's give the Suevi Spearmen Schiltrom.

FL: Rex Gepidae
FH: Je ne sais pas

FS: Three spears in a schiltrom

I don't think a Rex title is very accurate, or is it? "King" and "War Chief" will do for this one.

Anything else we missed?

Ummmmmm we're done here, right?

If no one has anything else to add, might as well be done and start work on another faction.


_{Hint hint: Vandals and Berbers will be next}

Yep that's a wrap.

Yeah we need to get a move on. I maintain that having all open at once would have been better.

We can always come back to these (and probably will) later on when actual modding begins.