Yeah.. it happens to me all the time too.. like this morning.. i was playing as macedonia and i had alliances with dacia, thrace, Greece and all the roman factions, Then on the next turn, Dacia attacked one of my provinces.. and on my game dacia was huge, it had more than 10 huge provinces so i moved all my armies(around 10 half flags) north to take on the Dacian Threat.. about two turns after.. Thrace attacked me to from the east and Greece from the south.. then the house of Julie.. who had 1 full banner army invaded from the east and took 2 provinces within 2 turns.. and all this happened while my armies were still in the northern parts of my land.. man i wish the AI would keep to there alliances.. or like give a turn notice of there breaking it or something.. and i now have like 3 provinces compared to my once.. 10 to 15 provinces and i also lost my armies in the north trying to hold against the house of Bruti, Thrace and Dacia, who by some chance happen to be allied together..

Simply because of this, it's better not to have allies, imho. Some of the factions tend to stay truer to alliances than other factions, such as Dacia, but as the example above proves, even they will betray you once in a while.

I think the CA purposefully made factions tend to betray. I mean, in those days, all they cared about was themselves. Their goal was to build up their empires, and exploit their "allies" if need be. Nowadays, with all those nuclear weapons and deadly effective killing machines, everyone is looking for peace, which is why everyone tries to maintain alliances for as long as possible.

Not to mention, CA probably realized how easy it would be to win. A player (eg Rome) would make an alliance with a faction (eg Greece) and then not make any agression on them. You'd always have someone to guard your back! Think about it, the Romano-Greco war machine...

[This message has been edited by KaiserWinterfeldt (edited 12-10-2005 @ 10:10 PM).]

It happens to me all the time. In my Scipii campain I had allinces with Numidia, Greek Cities, and Gallia. Greeks attck Messana, Numidia attack Thapsis, and Gallia attack one of my Generals. Its like the AI crazy or something

The best strategy is to make alliances only if your potential ally is willing to pay (substantial gold) for the priviledge. And always assume they will break the alliance as soon as you let your guard down. By making them pay for the alliance, when the inevitable sneak-attack happens, your enemy will have purchased some of the units for you to fight him!

And don't forget, never ally with any faction that is on your borders, and don't give rights of passage. Your allies will be unable to attack you unless they have a right of passage with your bordering neighbor, or unless they land troops from the sea. Significantly reduces the problem.

[This message has been edited by Chonaman (edited 12-13-2005 @ 11:18 AM).]

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Most of the time, they will not even take this as a gift (patch 1.2), and I've tried it a lot, LOL. Has anyone ever had this offered to them (e.g., a faction offers it in negotiation)?

Early in the game, typically in turn 3 to 7, I ally with everyone I can simultaneously (in same move; I usually build ships & dips, not units, initially). There are significant diplomatic benefits to doing so before your units actually must attack an enemy for the first time. Eventually, all alliances will be off anyway. Trade builds up both my coffers, as well as my neighbors... who are really just collecting & holding "my" denarii, until I can extort it through diplomatic machinations. Many times, an alliance can hold an enemy at bay for a turn or two, but I (almost) never pay for the alliance.

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As Brutii, Scipii, and Julii, I usually ally with Macedonia early in the game (by turn 6), and more than 50% of the time, Macedonians are fighting the rebels in Athens, side by side... well, actually they charge right on in after I open the gates, and get pretty much slaughtered in the TC... while I hold back and watch. Then their depleted army usually works its way north, and depending on the Greek situation (Allied or War), war may follow quickly.

So it may not be orthodox, but I tend to use Alliances as a means of influing short-term border behavior, and increasing trade, even when I know it will last only a few turns. BTW, the Greeks (and probably any civ) will break the alliance in the same turn if their units encounter an undefended city of yours .

Its anoying when that hapens but i found that if you keep a diplomat near them and talk to them evry five turns they will stay true. I did this with pontus and i was still alied at the end of the game. The most untrustworthy fokes iv found though are the Gauls, Thracians, and Numidians. I hate them for it.

Regular diplomatic contact doesn't work that well either in my experience. I tried that playing the Egyptians with the Parthians. In the end they still attacked me. What does work so far with me is making sure you have a common enemy. I'm allied with the Ponts now who were at war with the Romans. As I was planning to attack the Romans anyway I allied with the Ponts so I didn;t have to go through the trouble of taking their provinces in Asia minor. I even gave them Byzantium when I took it from the Romans so their war would continue for a while. Romans are good common enemies because they tend to go on untill the enemy is destroyed instead of making those whimpsy ceasefires...

I agree that there are times when the "rule of thumb" not to ally with bordering states can be ignored; especially if you can extract significant money for the alliance, and are well-prepared to defend anyway. As Wartrain points out, there are situations when you can be creative and reap the rewards; you just need to have a good handle on the situation.

I try to be friendly with the Gauls for the first 10 turns or so when playing Julii, and have found they will often poney up decent amounts of gold for Trade Rights and an alliance (1000 denari or so over 10 turns). At that point the money really comes in handy as Julii.

You just have to be looking over your shoulder at all times with your allies because you'll be generally disappointed in the quality of your alliances, and will may even get thrashed once in a while if you're not paying attention to thier military presence.

I've actually had it treat an alliance valuably...for a while. At the beginning of my Scipii campaign (well not quite the beginning....I was in Greece, but you get the point) I had forced my way up through Greece and had conquered it with minimal resistance. Due to previous AI alliances, I was eventually forced to war with Dacia and Macedon (it was really ok though, because I had obviously planned it anyway). I was, however, approached at about that time (I had the Peloponessus all the way up through the Attica regions under my control) by a Thracian diplomat offering cash, trade rights, attack on dacia, alliance, and two way military access. Seeing as they had only two provinces, I was very quick to accept. We actually fought together on several occasions to positive results. Much later on in the game (I believe I had close to forty-five provinces at the time) I was blindsided by a Tracian betrayal. Seeing as, by that time, I had obviously pulled troops from Greece, they stormed Byzalora easily, and quickly moved on to Thessolonica. Seeing as I was at war with the Brutii (they had gaul/germania region somehow), defending against an all-out spanish onslaught at Corduba with inferior troops threating to be pushed back off the coast, an army tied up crossing Northern Dacia to assist in Italy, another at Alexandria, and yet another attempting to perform a pincer movement on an Egypt with parthian protectorates, I was stuck. Unfortunately, at that point, the save game had an error due to a patch, and I was unable to see the results---however, I fear there's no doubt they would have been tragic (most settlements in that area had wooden walls at most...I never bothered upgrading besides economically...who would?)

This does, however, bring up another question in my mind: is it worth it to be another nations protectorate, should they offer?

Like i mentioned above.. i wish alliances would be a bit more real.. like i understand during that time period back stabbing wasnt uncommon and everything.. but maybe the alliances can be made for a common cause.. or if needed be limmited to a certain faction or amount of alliance.. what im saying is it would be cool(i think) if you could ally with another faction.. example Macedonia and thrace.. not just to be ally's but for a common cause, like to ally with eachother to aid eachother in destroying another faction, like Macedonia and Thrace allying to take out Dacia.. And during that time period, the AI would stay true to the alliance becuz it is benificial to both factions, and during this period of co-op the AI cannot attack you while your trying to protect it and have troops working together.. cuz really who would do that.. or maybe be limmited to a certain amount of allies.. or maybe be limmited to ally with only a certain faction.. that maybe in history were allies.. i get the point made above that if allies would stay true there would be no point cuz you could ally with everyone.. but like i was saying, maybe be limmited to ally with a certain amount, or a certain faction, and once the reason(reason you allied with them) is over(attacking faction or other cause) then the AI could have the choice of attacking you or you attacking them.. sort of like the roman civil war, they work together untill they feel that they dont need eachother, or are better then the other.. I would personally like this.. like when i play.. i ally with the neighbor.. and im always like oh cool.. we can work together n stuff.. then the next turn there attacking me.. this is just what i think would be a cool addition or fix to the AI/Alliance thing..

Hi,
Excuse-me for my english, it's not my first language.
I play RTW for one year, and i think i have an experience in the campaign game.

First point: don't allied nor be neutral with all your neighboors, they all attack you in a few turn. At least, you must at war with one of your neighboors to maintain the alliance with the others.

Second : in the beginning of your campain, make a plan : which faction you should attack and which faction you should have an alliance ; and with the faction you should attack, don't make no diplomacy before your attack : no trade rights, no sell map (sell map after your first attack) and of course no alliance. Because if you have a diplomacy relation with a faction and you attack them later, the other faction fear you and attack you to prevent your future's attack.

Third : if you want to take a city from a faction who have just a diplomacy relation, send an army of one peasent near the city, the faction must attack your army. It's the faction who has attacked you and broken the relation ; in this case, you have follow the second point and you can take the city. Exception : you are A and allied with B who are allied with C, C attack you, B break the alliance and attack you soon or later, B never allied with you. If it's allied'city, cancel alliance before sending your peasant army.

Even if you follow these 3 points, an allied faction can attack you for multiple reason, so DON'T TRUST ON THE ALLIANCE.

i have not really had much problems with alliances in game, if i make an alliance, it's usually with someone who has bigger fish to fry. like i was carthage, allied with egypt, they were fighting pontus selucids and armenia, so they left me alone, and i benefited from the alliance for many years. or as gaul i allied with germany and they fought with britain and kept each other occupied while i fought julii. thats my opinion. make sure they have someone else to fight with.

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yea i kinda wish alliances were more realistic, even for back then. I may be wrong but i thougth that back then most countries, excluiding romans, were prety good about those things. like they tried to keep ther a good reputiation for there Honor because they valued that greatly. though i May be wrong.

but i can understand why they did that. If you allied withe everyone aroud you it would become a boring game.

That happened to me this morning. My German empire is super powerful, holding the northern three parts of Spain, eastern Europe(western half of Balkands and pushing into Greece as well as Pripet and that one place north of it) and Britian, as well as everything between(except for Italy).
I'm allies with Thrace(who was being destroyed by Dacia before I destroyed the Dacian armies; the Thracians thanked me by taking over most of the Dacian territory before I could and not supporting me when their friends and my other allies the Romans attacked me) as well as Spain.
I came into Iberia fairly early in the game when I sent an army by sea to capture the northeastern corner of Iberia, which was controlled by Gaul. I wanted the gold and an easily defendable front on the other side of Gaul to distract their armies.
Well, after being there a while, I got involved with the locals. Spain was a tiny divided kingdom, only holding the western edge of Iberia. I traded with them for a while, then, seeing that they were about to be destroyed by a large Gallic army, I intervened on their behalf. Then, seeing an opportunity to indirectly fight my opponent(and not on my territory, as I was fighing in the north) I gave them some cash in exchange for an alliance and them attacking the Gauls.

That went well, and I eventually captured the north half of Iberia. Spain was caught up with smaller wars in the south with the remaining Gallic armies in the region as well as Rebels and Carthaginians.
We were both profiting greatly from our trade.

In 167, Spain finally united the two halves of their kingdom by taking Cordoba. They had sacrificed most of their armies in fighting the Carthaginians out of the area only to have to sacrifice most of the rest to take it from the rebels when they revolted from the lack of Carthaginians managing them. I was pleased about this as well, as this made my sea trade of the north (connecting the Baltic, North Sea, western Britian, the coast of Gaul, and the northern and western coasts of Iberia) with my western Mediterranean trade (connecting Southern Gaul, eastern Iberia, the Belarics and Northern Africa).

Well, in 166, when my best General was commiting Genocide in the east(and killing two grandsons of one of my generals who was bribed off by the Brutii), something unexpected happened. For no apparent reason, a Spanish navy consiting of one boat, attacked my full stack large boat navy in the middle of the Atlantic.
This immediately had two effects. Their entire navy(yes, they had lost the rest to Carthage) was crushed. And, we both lost a major source of income.

WTF?!

Wow u pay that much attention to trade.. i dont think i ever really looked into that... and when i play.. trade is probably the last thing i do.. like in the begining i try to take wat i can before my neighbor can.. so i always forget that i have a diplomat around.. nor do i make any more.. then like when i have my area of control established i send out some diplomats to set up trade rights with near by factions and to get alliances if i can.. but i understand why u would do that first.. cuz i bet it would bring some much needed profit to the construction of armies in the beginning aswell as in the longrun..

Most of the time you don't need alliances, you are so powerful and the AI is so stupid you could just conquer everything in sight until you get bored and quit the game.

Yeah.. thats what i do.. i just keep taking cities and destroying factions into i get bored and either stop playing for a day or two.. or start a new campaign.. this usually happens after 2 or 3 hours..

I usually ally with a nation when we have a common enemy because then they'll often help in battles...But I never ally with egypt everytime I have they attack me like 2 turns later so I usually just keep high watch on egypt and obliterate them anytime they enter my lands...

The AI seems to make policiy decisions as point decisions + plus a random element which is amplified by a sudden encounter, much like Civilization 2 did. They seem to use (possibly) a mini-max type of algorithm, which computes the instantaneous value of an attack, backstabbing, etc. Attacks like yours seem to violate value part of the algorithm, and result from either a randome element, or messed up diplomacy/economic model (e.g., its computed that you will loose more in the long run than the direct battle cost to the outnumbered ship).

This also means that the AI can (and does) violate certain AI-advantageous treaties, even on the same turn they make them.

I treat every empire on the Campaign Map as dogs to be kicked and beaten, and when they betray their alliance, I do my best to utterly crush them to the exclusion of all other adversaries.

I have often been ravaged with wars on 3 fronts with 4 or more enemies betraying me. But I build, build, build from turn one and have learned that keeping units in singles strewn along the cur's path, I can delay any real damage from their attacks (meaning my cities are insulated) for several turns while I crank up the War Machine even more.

This is why I love playing Carthage, because I can't wait to grind their bones to butter my soldier's bread, so to speak.

But your're right, guys: NEVER trust and alliance and use it only to temporarily boost trade.

I hate ALL the godsdamned factions! No matter what I do for them, how much money I give them as gifts, how many times I save their asses from invasion, or save their asses by not doing jack crap invading them, they friggin betray me in 5 turns or less!

Even the SPQR! Slowly, eventually, the more I progress in the Republican era of the campaign, the more gifts I give the SPQR, the more missions I complete and don't complete (neat balance between), they always lose favor with me, to the point where they're demanding the suicide of my faction leader every two turns!

Well, I have noticed a flux in alliances, and that certain factions tend to keep them more often than others. Just to list those that DON'T;

~Spain
~Greece
~Britian

Now, those three factions, when playing Germania, have never once kept an alliance with me; at one point or another they will/have betrayed me, and tried to take my settlements. Currently in my campaign though, Spain is dead, and Britian is stuck on Hiberia with a full stack army that is costing too much money to save up enough to get them to the next settlement level.

But onto a current point.

I find one of the easiest ways to keep an alliance going and strong, is to have a "Boogyman" to use with the alliance. That is, to have an enemy (As someone mentioned above, can't recall the name, sorry) that both factions hate and are at war with. Usually you would want to wipe out said-faction, so that they can't bother you anymore, but that is not always the best option. Sometimes, it is better to keep this "boogyman" faction alive, so that the enemy bonding your alliance together stays alive.

For example, curently in my game my one major ally is Carthage. I've eliminated every other Roman power other than the Scipii, who after several landings on Africa to save Carthage from them (Taking cities back and gifting them to my ally), I've forced onto Sicily, and blockaded every port, cutting them off. Now, they're no longer a real threat anymore; their economy is kind of good, so they can build a ship every once and a while, but then I sink said ships, and keep what remains of their armies on Sicily, cut off. Now, they're no longer a threat, as I said, but Carthage is kept in an alliance with me, simply because the Scipii is still at war with both of us, and won't submit.

Now, one could say that the Scipii should be killed off. Granted, I could do so, since they're so weak now. But if I did that, what would keep Carthage from attacking my Italian mainland? Nothing, because there's no other threat coming at them. So instead I would keep the Scipii alive, and therefore still a "threat" to Carthage, since the AI can't tell the Scipii are nothing more than an old wolf who's lost all of his teeth. In this situation, it is beneficial to the alliance to have the enemy still alive but contained, since it still represents a threat to the both of us.

Now, there's another alliance like this. The "I-hate-you-but-we-both-hate-him" alliance is similar, but slightly different in nature. In this alliance, two factions are allied, not because they like each other, but because another faction is threatening both. Now, while a bit similar to the "boogyman" scenario, it differs in the two factions would go to war as soon as the enemy is dealt with, not needing to be defeated or destroyed.

So what do I mean by this? Well, if the enemy of the two factions is no longer a credible threat on the land, one of the two allies will go to war with its former ally, since the alliance is no longer necessary. This is a bit hard to see in the game, but can happen.

For example, like above; in my current Germania campaign, The Greek Cities and Macedonia are enemies. Greece used to be my ally, but after I marched an army through northern Greece, smashed up the Macedonians and killed the Brutii, the Greeks betrayed me, since the Macedons no longer were powerful enough to challenge them. However, after building some defenses, I pulled out all my major armies from Greece, and left them to their own devices. As you might have guessed, the Greeks went off to expand in Asia Minor, and the Macedonians built back up into a power again, attacking the Greek Cities and straining their forces. Now, at this time I was off in Spain, when Greece came back to me, offering a Ceasefire and Trade Rights. I took them, and still worked on other things. A year later, Greece came back again, this time with an alliance. I took that as well, knowing they would attack when the Macedons were beaten back, but using the alliance just for some added security in the region. Now, I could march some armies into Greece, and crush some Macedonian ones, but I know as soon as I do so, Greece will betray me, attack me, etc., etc. So what do I do? This is where the "Boogyman" alliance falls into common road with this alliance. I can use Macedon for the time being to keep Greece scared enough to keep allied with me, until I can situate my armies in Spain at the moment, to get to Greece, and place them so that once Macedon is no longer a problem, I can take out Greece simultaniously, before they can attack my more southern provinces. This is over all an alliance of mutual benefits, but also of shared animosity, moreso than friendship.

Now, the third Alliance I've encountered is the "???" Alliance. No real reason is given for it, and no real enemy is needed to keep the two members together. The two allies just don't bother each other, and expand in different ways. This is the most beneficial alliance, since nothing is needed to keep it going, but also potentially the most dangerous, since you never know when it'll end.

For this one, I can present to you my alliance with Dacia. We don't have any common enemy other than Macedon (But neither of us fight them, we just never got around to making peace with the northern Greeks), and we just were set in expanding in different directions, never really crossing paths (I went Southward and West into Gaul; Italy; Brittania; Iberia, Dacia expand more Eastern and Northern; Thrace; Scythia). Chances are, this alliance might end at any time (Actually, I'm planning on attacking them soon), but for the time being, we don't bother each other, don't mess with each other, and for the most part, are just partners in spreading our cultures outward. No reason for the alliance, other than it happening.

Well, hope this helps everyone here, I know this thinking was interesting to do, and even more interesting to test out in the campaigns. I'll tell you, perhaps, what Greece does does follow #2, from the signs of it, it looks to be heading that way.

dang it i hated it when every single alliance i had betrayed me at the same turn (i think it happens to everyone), my economy went so dangerously low for like 5 years i was like -15000 until i slowly regained my cash coz the trade rights brought it so dam low but then i was cheered up when i realized brutti scippi and the senate were probobly going low too so i took my chance (being the strongest faction with the largest army) used them and sent them to greece and im currently unleashing bloody hell onto brutii and i managed to cease fire with scipii and got trading rights.