Hi Richie, welcome to RTWH! We'll be colouring your name blue, (the VIP color) and add a VIP tag to it as soon as possible.

While this news is a sad one, especially to the newer players I'm glad that measures will be taken. The atmosphere, mostly in the Friendly lobby at certain points has for a long time been intolerable.

[This message has been edited by GloryofSparta (edited 11-29-2005 @ 08:20 AM).]

Hi Sparta thanks for the welocme.

Hey Shogun, thanks for notifying us, and welcome to the forums.

This is certainly a shame... perhaps it's an excuse to improve the system as a whole though? Rome is an extremely tactical game, and would be a lot more fun to play online if that were to happen.

You're blue, btw...*sings "Blue"*...

[This message has been edited by Adder (edited 11-29-2005 @ 10:02 AM).]

To look at the positives, at least I won't have the screen filled up with psuedo politics and idiots talking about Hitler....to name some of the less offensive stuff.

Greetings Shogun. Thanks for the heads up.

I concur with Jude and GoS - there was a lot of bad stuff being talked about and it'll be a nice change.

censorship is bs either way you go about it. insted ofCA being lazy about it,they can actully ban words insted of banning chat in all,but im sure there so smart they allready thought of an alterntive route insted of being totally retarded on this desision you all who have this choosing to make,you should pick up command and conquer,or any other game such from EA they ban curse words,i suggest you do the same insted of being total tools with stupid ideas such as turning off chat in all.frankly we need chat to get a deasent game,if you turn off chat this will be impossable to do,seeing you take away the right to tell the rules of the game to make a game balance*which CA has failed to do must correct that mistake* so you do that garuntee 60%+ of the people will theave,wont hurt us,it will hurt CA.

Dp

you all who agree are tools,period. you all are going about this in every wrong way there is you who made this desison have ruined the game,dont get me wrong,its not that i am defending the tards who must insist in acting in such way,BUT it is CA that is wrong in this stupid act.

Shogun did not in his post say that the chat is disabled from the hosted games. What is puzzling me here is why a moderator feature, which stands to reason, hasn't been enforced by GS themselves.

And dp, may I ask you to re-write your post a little, and consider reading our CoC? This is not the Warzone, you know...

@Drowingpool et. al. ...
After researching it a bit (including hysterics from certain clan members), it seems the real problem is that you all don't want to see or understand basic rights. It's not about you you you... its about others. Their rights are being infringed by the actions of those abusing the chat. You own self-centered desires seem to dominate your thinking. CA had to act to stop the abuse, which infringes the rights of some people who play RTW.

Let me put it another way. In America, we have the right to free speech. That is a basic right, guaranteed by the Consitition and upheld by the Supreme Court. But in a crowded movie theater, can you stand up and start screaming "Fire! Fire!"? No, you will be arrested and convicted in any court... but why? Well, its because YOUR rights ended where the rights of OTHERS were infringed. That is the dividing line. CA has identified a similar line in RTW chat, and took positive action to stop the abuse. And whilst I'm at it, I saw a few clan posts (via the links you provided) about having a guaranteed 'right' to chat. Well, so sorry, not true (but to be open-minded, I'll say cite a source to the contrary and I'll check it).

Quoted from Shogun:

CA apologized, and said steps were being taken because they know this is not a long-term solution.

So where exactly is the problem, DP?

Quoted from Drowningpool:

No, the stupid act(s) were the systematic abuses by the 'Tards' (as you called them). The responsible thing was to end it, which CA did. In fact, as I researched it, CA is under no legal obligation to do anything more. But I suspect they will, despite attitudes like yours. After all, what CA has going for them is a great game that they are not only continuing to improve, but taking the time to inform the community. Furthermore, you'll be playing it: you like it (same as me) because its a great game which the makers are still improving.

So in keeping with Roman thought, I leave you with:

Difficile est tenere quae acceperis nisi exerceas

( It is difficult to retain what you may have learned unless you should practice it. ) - Pliny the Younger

good "points" i guess but non the less censorship is wrong,period even if it is temp. and if someone IS bothering with these so called "racial slurs" that you claim to be happaning every time you are on there is a block button,which is there to as it is BLOCK since when did people say "you can look at the book,but you cannot read it"...

What I am suggesting, DP, is that the creative ones with strong feelings like you channel that into well-discussed, thought out suggestions and present them to CA. Tell them what will help. CA does look at user feedback, and user ideas. It does not stand to reason that an online petition (posted elsewhere) which says things like

Quoted from Petition:

and (ROTFL!)

Quoted from Petition:

I hope the CA corporate attorney does not read that... someone might be going to jail for manslaughter if he dies of laughter when reading that!

Oh oh... and this one... right here...

Quoted from Petition:

Ooooo... the use of "hereby" really strikes the fear of Caesar into CA *checks to see if CA has recanted yet*. I still have not figured out what "...removing chat future..." means, but it sounds pretty informative, especially if I am a mortician running short of nails for my pine boxes...

But give the CA guys and gals some credit... or at least some well thought out, gramatically correct, spell-checked, realistically implementable, civil constructive criticism.

Well said, Wartrain.

i did not make the petition,and its chat feature,a mere typo. do come up with a better arguement then petty typos

A better argument would be that it is their property and they can do with it as they wish

Come on now, to say that the problem could be solved just by blocking out the racial slurs or disgusting comments as they appear is missing the point entirely. The point is that CA doesn't want their name to be dragged in the mud by letting racial slurs and offensive comments run amok on their game's chat areas which is totally understandable. Hopefully now that they know there is a problem they can do something about it and make online play much more enjoyable.

hard to enjoy without basis of communication

HI guys

So as most of you know the lobbies chat (for online gaming) is disabled, in-game chat is still enabled , the idea is battles are arranged on the forums, so you know who you're playing with. You then go to the lobbies to hook up and play. In-game chat is pretty much a necessity in the multiplyer games (especially larger battles). Therefore anyone in the lobbies will not be exposed to anything unpleasant. As forum identity is recorded any misbehaviour there can be properly reported and dealt with. We have taken this action due to racist and abusive behaviour in lobbies. Please bear in mind that the game has a 12 rating.

As for a better solution than just turning chat off, we are looking in to this now. It is counter productive to start flaming the boards and slating the developers. A small minority have made this action necessary. Racist behaviour is unacceptable on these boards and our lobbies and I ask that the community show a united front on this. We are working to improve this situation and will keep you informed of our progress. This a temporary measure only we are not trying to kill off online play, we are tying to save it.

@DP when you come and post at the TW forums please do so with respect.

Thank you.

I am still uncertain whether or not the chat is muted in the setup stage... (haven't been playing since this implemenation was put into effect) and if it is, the only problem I see with it is the inability to communicate game rules to those who join a game (generally, the casual gamer who logs on for one game or two and who incidentally doesn't happen visit the TW forums).

What is puzzling me here is why a moderator feature in RTW online, which stands to reason, hasn't been enforced by GameSpy themselves.

Quote:

Thank you, your effort is much appreciated!

didnt realize i had to show "respect" to those who must ask for it,why should i respect such a dumb call seeing i am intitled to my voice,or are you censoring that as well?

i realize this is not my forum,nor have i got out of line imo.

Online Play - Chat removal

Quoted from Drowningpool:

DP, you already know no one has censored you in this thread. People are making suggestions to you, since you at least have the initiative to post your point of view. At least 27 others, whom I have read on the petition yesterday, have not even done that. That makes you a leader, from a practical point of view. And what leaders (those who step forward from the shadows and make their points) often find is that blasting away with things like 'dumb' and 'tard' etc. etc. don't help.

I logged into another RTW site and see that today the petition is now removed. Hopefully, its authors asked a mod there to remove it. If it was deleted by a mod (it violated that Forums' Code of Conduct BTW), then since it had no point, good riddance.

Quoted from Drowningpool:

Do you really expect the professionals at a multi-million dollar enterprise like CA to respond to that sort of thing? No. So that leaves people like me wondering what the point of that sort of posting by you is really about... since logic clearly shows it will not win anyone to your point of view.

I looked through the posts again, and no one told you to shut up, or even that your point of view was invalid. It would be of much more help if you made specific suggestions, instead of "why should i respect such a dumb call...".

So now I ask you, DP (your clan mates too, whom I have read about on the clan site), what do you realistically recommend for CA to do, given that the Chat is closed for the moment? Lets assume it was your company, and your money to lose in a liability lawsuit (for example, American tort law allows CA to be sued if they to not take the actions that meet the legal test of 'reasonablness' in the eyes of a Judge). People are being injured through a medium created by you (remember, you "own" CA now). Your first responsibility, as CEO or Owner of any company causing injury (it does not even matter if in the end that your 'win' in court... the damage and legal defense costs are done), is to mitigate the injury, and a reasonable person would be expected to take whatever steps are available to stop the injury, then work on the long-term cure. That is exactly what CA did, and that is exactly what is expected of a responsible company who cares about both the 'community' and its own future.

At any rate, you might talk with your friends and discuss the petition content. Frankly, the petition was infantile. Something that might be constructive is to use your MP and clan experience, and come up with concrete reasonable suggestions to help CA help you (the players). As it stands, they are probably assessing the situation, and whatever ideas you might have will neither be heard, nor shape the future of RTW or RTW MP chat.

Quoted from Drowningpool:

You signed it. Legally and responsibly, you are now its author. You asserted that it was indeed your words and point of view when you put your name to it.

And the irony is that the cumulative 'efforts' of that frankly embarrasing petition and the shrill use of words like 'dumb' and nonsense phrases like 'removing chat future'. Yes, I know what was probably meant, but this is a petition, not an offhand post... get the spelling right and get the grammar right to communicate the point of view. You signed it, so don't back away with lame . There's just no excuse if you are trying to formally communicate a Petition in, well, the grown-up world.

Sadly, is that it reflects the ones expressing in this manner. As I said, you are a leader, since you are here in this thread and not hiding in the shadows when faced by people of differing viewpoints... that is a credit to you. Kudos. (Kudos=a good thing).

Quoted from Drowningpool:

I have. Yet again. Now do your responsible part, and help turn that to a constructive use by channeling your energies into well-discussed, thought out suggestions and present them to CA. And I do look forward to your meaningful contributions in both the Forums, and RTW development.

Ut sementem feceris, ita metes -- Cicero
( As you sow, so shall you reap )

Er.. away from the argument...
I have played online only once, and my dad was shocked by bad language in the lobby and has banned me from going on it, So thanks. Perhaps I can play again... (if I can convince my parents that it's not wrong to post on this forum either...)

I have. Yet again. Now do your responsible part, and help turn that to a constructive use by channeling your energies into well-discussed, thought out suggestions and present them to CA. And I do look forward to your meaningful contributions in both the Forums, and RTW development. sort of like how shogun forum was it you and some other noob,they were the only ones agisnt it while the rest who posted was with the idea of the petetion and then the mod removed it from not liking what he saw when he insulted people for no reason,and so there fore gave us a piss poor exsuce*such as your saying my lack of thickness so speek* even though i have plenty of support unlike the fw people who either dont play online or as some are childern and envy those who can,meh if cussing doesnt allow you to play,then you are probally not over the Teen rating on the game.if your older then thirteen and your parents monitor what you play,esp a Teen rated game,it anit the chat looby it is your parents over protection imo,but thats another topic else where go to forums check the number of support the petition have,then i sugject you rethink your so called proof seeing this is what the fith time ive heard you rehash the same bs,really getting old kid.

Drowningpool, you've been warned. Please check your email (or this thread) for more information. - Adder

[This message has been edited by Adder (edited 11-30-2005 @ 05:49 PM).]

Hello everyone,

Ok, I am Antigonus, the leader of the IMMORTALS. I must admit in the heat of the moment I have been seen to use some unnecessary remarks. Never racial or directed against the CA, but at some rude individuals who can't control what comes out of their mouth. For that I apologize. I have told all my clan members not to ever engage into that kind of behaviour, but in self defence I must admit its easier said then done.

Now you guys working on this forum and your esteemed CA guests are right in taking actions against it, but I agree with DP that your actions may not be the best possible. Before you even begin to tell me about presenting solutions, I must admit that I have not thought of any that can trully help that problem. But disabling chat is trully a horrible for the game itself.

I have recomened countless people to buy this game because I felt in love with it the moment it came out. I bought half of equipment in my house to allow a comfortable and uninterrupted online play. I bought a $4,000 computer, and whole new DSL provider and super cool acoustic system, just so that my experience would be complete. Then comes this. Now as I said, uttering cussing words even in self defence, still made me part of the problem, but please think it clearly before you take any action. I am not a computer wiz but why not simply have a guy in the lobby who will automatically ban someone for cussing? Why can't this be done? I would like to know, if possible.

And Wartrain, no offense, and seeing you have all these noble men as your collegues here, please don't be sarcastic and condescending toward DP. He may not phrase his emotions correctly, and he may funnel a little too much anger, but that is because he loves the game, so please do yourself a favour and don't act all knowing, because trust me you are not. You may not think that you are doing this but you are, at least that is how I understand it too.

To a CA guy please remember, this is by no means to give offense, but your livelihood depends on guys like me and DP buying and playing your games. Your job is to accomodate us, not the other way around. This lates action has decreased the number of people and games in the lobby by a lot. You may not think it is a worthy factor, but it will be if you ever plan to make another game. You are very courteous in your thread and I appreciate that. Well spoken. But once again, people who buy your games are playing online for fun. You believe that what you did was insulting to your company - that is a point well taken. But what you are doing is insulting your own customers, and despite what you may believe, alienating the guys that want to play online will hit your own pockets, sooner or later, and that problem will eclipse the bad language on Gamespy by far, trust me.

I am here for a resolution of this problem as it creates various problems, and less people to play with. So if there anything that can be done please share with us, so that we know. I also appreciate your efforts in trying to look for other ways to solve this problems. I will bear with you but please hurry.

Thanks for taking time to read this
and if you could update us when you get new info I would trully be grateful.

Thank you

The thread is a very good thread concerning RTW and in fact the stake of CA in the upcoming holiday game purchase decisions that parents, in particular, will be making, so I will go into good bit of detail. The target audience of this particular post, despite the thread's gist so far, is really squarely at CA.

Quote:

No offense taken. And apologies offered to DP for any offense he perceived, as none was intended at any time in writing my replies here or at the other Forum. @DP: it is not with Sarcasm... it is by your posts that I even took the time to research this issue and read your petition, website, etc.

@Antigonus: you have hit upon an effective communication method, especially telling about how and exactly what RTW means to you. I will follow your example in part of this post.

@CA: It is the gamers that fund and fuel the PC improvements, by and large, since the mid-1980s. People with such commitments to gaming are understandably concerned about perceived lack of communication, and worry that such draconian measures will hurt RTW's present and future. Perhaps some sort of direct solicitation from the MP players & clans for input, and a general statement of exactly where CA is thinking in terms of solutions might help ally (perceived) fears that CA is not really concerned about the majority of users who are not abusers.

Now I'll comment directly regarding the corporate view on this (which I have actually not done so far).

1. This problem has existed for a long time. Personally, I cannot believe CA has just become aware of it. There are only two branches to follow in this logic tree (and both are unsettling):

1.1. CA did know of the problem and did nothing, until now. Well, from a legal point of view, you did the right thing CA. But what DP & others are unable to crystallize is exactly WHY NOW, and why so abrupt. I have to take you to task for not acting sooner: has CA been doing nothing about this whilst planning Patch 1.2 and 1.3/BI? The gut intuition is that you did know of the problem, and were suddenly 'scared' into action by a complaint. If any of this is true, CA (and I'm addressing CA development/product managers, or corporate officers) should simply come forward and interact with the community, and alleviate the concerns of both the users and parents who earn the money that is often used to buy RTW & CA games.

1.2. CA did NOT know of the problem, then when made aware of it, acted decisively. On first blush, this appears to be what happened, and seemingly justifies the handling of events. However... now I have to ask another hard question: how is it CA could NOT have know of this until now? Is CA really, truly that out of touch with its primary loyal fans (the legions of 12 to 18 year old boys)? CA needs to redress this.

Posting by The Shogun in this Forum while in Crisis Management Mode is a good start, but it is only a start. Communication, and realizing that there really are real people, many of them minors, who are quite anxious about the future of their favorite game. They don't have the experience to know what to do... but you at CA do. If you at CA have not known of this issue until now, I strongly recommend CA immerse themselves in modern methods of software development concerning the target user (we actually use events like this in the Masters/PhD CompSci curriculums at Universities like KTH (Stockholm), Stanford (Calif), and University of Georgia to name a few).

2. There are many potential solutions for the Chat issue, and I'm sure as professionals, CA has benchmarked (e.g., compared and analyzed the methods used on other MP games) various games. Again, speaking as someone who has been asked this question again and again by adults & parents who hardly know how to use a computer when asking me if RTW is OK for their 13 year old, why is it only now CA is looking at this? However, we appreciate you doing it.

Parents that have the cash are looking for excuses to buy RTW (actually, any game... they want the list narrowed, and recommendations made), even this week in the Christmas rush. Friends and parents ask me... and if I say "get it", then they buy it, and their kid gets on broadband (everyone in Sweden has good broadband these days!) and the parent takes a look at what happens in a chat, and I get the phone call "why did you say that game was good? Its disgusting!" or worse. The kid is sometimes not allowed to play RTW again. Generally, I recommend RTW and absolutely forbid MP for those underage. Then parents ask why. OK... so just maybe CA has been ignorant of “why” until now, but now you know. Parents have a gut feel for things, and it has been a sad shame that CA does not get high marks from parents that you will never ever see posting on your forums. It has already hit CA in the pocketbook. You just don't realize it.

The upside is that I can say you will be selling about 5 to 14 more copies of RTW here in Uppsala, Sweden in coming weeks if CA handles this well. Parents ask me almost every day day, and this upcoming weekend I am going to be installing about 5 new machines for several neighborhood kids. I kindof dread the looming Christmas rush... I love RTW, but can't lie to those asking advice for where to spend hard-earned Kronor in this most highly taxed nation of Sweden (or $$ in the low-taxed state of Texas).

3. "Please bear in mind that the game has a 12 rating" (The Shogun). I'm sure this was an offhand comment, Shogun, since it implies that the kind of stuff going on the the Chat is OK for a 12 or 13 year old. We all know it is not, and in fact the game does not tout "Buy RTW and have your 12-year-old hear racist or explicit chat!"

4. Several people here and at other forums have posted interesting and relevant questions (e.g., GloryOfSparta, Drowningpool, and Antigonus) about this Chat issue.

5. @CA (not The Shogun): This is said with respect: The Shogun is not a 'decision maker' at CA. The authority and assurance of CA decision makers who personally take the time to solicit and interact with the MP (and also SP!) RTW community, and directly answer the top-level questions that naturally arise from issues like Chat would work wonders! You probably cannot quantify the effect of this in a McNamara-style bean count, but the effect will be definite.

Personally, I recommend & install games for a lot... hordes... of kids (& adults) here (Sweden) and some in Texas, and this wild west of Chat is one reason why at least three parents I know of in the last month or so have disallowed RTW for their sons. If a parent can look to examples of a game company's officials actively involved in improving the product that the parent is willing to allow to shape their adolescent's views, then this makes it easier for parents to accept and even avidly speak about a game among themselves.

6. Conclusion. Either way (1.1. or 1.2.), I express great respect to The Shogun for coming here and communicating a little bit: Thank You. We hope to see more of you, or at least on a semi-regular basis. Your name and position carry a good deal of influence with RTW players.

My bottom line: CA did the right thing for 'fire control' by canceling Chat, but CA should make a concerted effort (long-term commitment and Forum presence) to interact (even listening works wonders) to the RTW community, the parents who often fund (or not) RTW, and players who just play the game!

PS for The Shogun: Maybe you can raise/forward these issues raised by myself and the other posters to those internally at CA that could benefit. And thanks for your new presence here at RTH, I have used some of your remarks in discussions with parents asking if RTW or game XX is better to buy for Christmas just this morning!

EDIT: Fixed Formats.

[This message has been edited by Wartrain (edited 11-30-2005 @ 06:21 PM).]

@ Shogun:

First off, thank you for joining our forums over here. It's great to see CA getting more involved in the community, and brings confidence, esspecially since greater support seems to have been a trend for a while now.

I understand why you took the steps you did, and am certainly grateful that it's only a temporary measure. I played Medieval online briefly and playing Rome online, and seeing the behavior of people on the chat lobbies was a real shame, seeing how lousy people were most of the time.

However, I do take some issue in what you posted, keeping in mind that this is a temporary measure.

Quote:

I think the main problem is that people don't often arrange games as much as they just jump in and play people, esspecially the beginners who would find it odd to enter a lobby with plenty of people, but no way of communicating with them. Another problem is that people often use the lobby as a resource for information on the game, certain functions, and things like patches and modifications. Cutting this off will hurt the amount of support users give each other, even if it does silence the people who have nothing better to do than switch the function of their mouth with that of their rear-ends.

Quote:

A suggestion that I present (and others probably have, either in this thread or elsewhere) is perhaps to hire or get volunteer moderators, who can moniter the forums with the ability to ban some players from multiplayer for a certain amount of time due to abusive language or behavior, with more abusive behavior warranting longer bans.

That is exactly what I was bringing up to. Having someone who can just monitor the lobby and kick people out. Adding to Ace's comments I am aware that there is an internal tracker that keeps a log of all different names a single player may use. Can't that be also unitilized from banning them in the future? I mean in this forum there is a Code of Conduct, and it effectively bans people from this forum for excessive language/spaming. Why can't there be a COC for Gamespy, to enforce the same rules? Maybe I am missing something, so feel free to correct me.

Wow, Wartrain,

Your response left me absolutely speechless. Wonderful job and exceptionally good communication and presentation skills. I thank you for taking your time and sort of collecting our thoughts into a single coherent statement of concern. I add my own appreciation for Shogun's appearance on this forum.

Lets work together to solve this problem, guys/girls.