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Topic Subject: Diplomacy, Buffer States & Parthia
posted 04 October 2005 23:44 EDT (US)   
Okay, while looking for campaign advice on Parthia saw a lot of posts relating to diplomacy, specifically protectorates.
Protectorates are GOOD if you can get them-- they have a specific purpose. All the territories of a protectorate count towards your overall control. So being a faction with 35 territories and two protectorates with 15 territories combined gets you the win. Why would you want that? Easy-- that far flung territory that rebels on you every third turn? Put it under control of a protectorate-- now it trades with you, and if its reasonably close to your protectorate's capital, stays quiet. All well and good-- how do you get a protectorate? Harder-- your enemy has to be on the ropes. The faction can't have any armies no matter how small in your territory, and you defintely have to be menacing him with an army in his territory when you send in the diplomat. Even then its only about a 50/50 chance-- probably relating to how the politics have gone up until then, but its worth the shot. Protectorates tend to stay truly neutral and not attack you or any other faction (though other AI's will make war on them) unless you get into conflict with some other mutual ally, in which case they almost always ditch you.
Protectorates if not on the outskirts of your empire also make good buffer states. Why/what buffer state? As this is a game btw comp & human, its designed to have the comp go after you. Primarily any AI faction that shares a border with you (physically touching) is going to attack you sooner rather than later. That way the game is not a walk in the park. This is helpful to know when your faction is still relatively small and you don't want to fight certain opponents all at once. Example: You're Pontus and you want to keep Egypt as a friendly sea trading partner? --Make sure you keep the Seles alive and between you until you're strong enough to go down there in force to handle whatever Egypt will toss your way. Until you're ready to make your own move Egypt will be as friendly as you like, so long as there's someone between you.
Of course this means you're skillful to manage the Sels while you're fighting them (not killing them while you gain territory elsewhere-- but not weakening them so much you let Egypt break through from the other side).
The best of both worlds is to have your buffer state be your protectorate and just feed them enough money to fend off the opposition. When you're ready to make your move you'll also likely get a rare (for me anyway) mutliple faction battle on the campaign map as you lift a siege or two off your protectorate.
So, now that I'm semi-clever-- who's got campaign advice for playing Parthia on hard/hard or vh/vh ? I've handled most of the other factions without too much trouble-- but I seem to go bankrupt with Parthia before I can start cranking out decent armies to roll with.
Replies:
posted 07 October 2005 23:25 EDT (US)     1 / 24  
Well I can't help you with your Parthian campain execpt that you could mod it so that the cities have decent buildings and you have alot of money. Any how, your information on protecorates are great, but are you sure that its all hardcoded or is it just what works best for you. Becuase knowing the things like "The faction can't have any armies no matter how small in your territory[...]" that could help out alot of people including myself in getting protectorates more often.

Cheers
Lentulas


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posted 08 October 2005 03:25 EDT (US)     2 / 24  
Parthia starts out slow. You will have to milk the economy for all it is worth and make a lot of decisions, studying the financial scroll, etc to see exactly what you shoul do. Take Phraaspa IMMEDIATELY, before anybody else (I think it's Armenia). You will have to move turn one and take it turn two. In general, treat your empire as three different subsections. Campus sakae, arsakia/phraaspa, and susa/seleucia.

Don't worry about keeping a military in Campus Sakae. Just keep the order.

You should be able to avoid fighting Ponuts or Armenia for some time. Move on the Seleucids first. IIRC you can take Seleucia fairly easy in the beginning, the seleucids have enough to worry about with egypt so they should more or less let you take it. After that work on your economy and towards recruiting persian cavalry. A family member with some horse archers and maybe a merc unit or two should be enough to take dumatha while you are working up a decent army.

I suggest keeping an all cavalry army, you will have to cover some pretty wide open areas with no roads and you will need the movement points. The only imfantry I would recommend are the occassion slingers to help deal with the god for sake chariots that both seleucia and Egypt will have. You should start with two units of cataphracts. They are an EXTREMELY powerfull force in the early game, use them in crucial situations but only when it's absoultely necessary as it will be a long time before you can get your hands on any more. Horse archers are, unfortunately pretty shitty. Get Persian cavalry as quickly as is financially feasible, they are parthia's bread and butter unit.

[This message has been edited by Themistocles472 (edited 10-08-2005 @ 03:29 AM).]

posted 08 October 2005 14:30 EDT (US)     3 / 24  
Ah Parthia, one of the most powerful factions in the game, but one of the most difficult to begin with. The first step is to take Phraapsa, and abandon Campus Sakae. Then destroy Armenia. Now you have a strong defensible powerbase, although you are too poor to support a large army of any kind. The next step is to train four units of horse archers and combine all your mounted troops. Make four armies of four units of horse archers. Place one near Kotais, one on the pass near Seleucia, one on the pass leading to Hatra and one on the bridge leading to Susa. Now all your cities are safe for the moment as your armies will have to be beaten to break into your realm. This is impossible to do for the AI.
You do this by running round the enemy force peppering them with missles and never engaging and if you can do not engage, but merely run round the battlefield till the time runs out preventing any victory. This will mean that you never lose and so they cannot break into your realm. In the meantime build economic buildings and do not train any more men. Sit there making money slowly. Train several diplomats and use them to sell map information to all the factions nearby and so make huge amounts of money. Every turn sell map information to as many factions as you can for as much as you can and eventually you will have a huge treasury of about 400 000 denarii. I know this is not that much, but it is all you need for now. The next step is to bribe away all of the Pontic stacks of eastern infantry and then suddenly declare war and take all of their settlements. Now you have a strong powerbase. From there build about 8 armies of 6 units of horse archers or persian cavalry and lay siege to all of the Seleucid empire simultaneously. When they sally out of their cities pepper them with arrows destroying their units before they reach you and eventually you will take all their cities in about 8 turns. No comes the time where you must start to improvise. Start to fight Egypt and then in one killer stroke attack and take all of the Nile Delta. Then take Sidon, Jerusalem and Salamis. Now Egyptian power is broken and you can start mopping up. You should have moved your capital to Antioch by now to deal with loyalty problems and drastically increase your income. From there just stay building economic buildings and growing very wealthy. Then when the Scipii start to attack you turn your thoughts to war with Rome.

Good luck!!

posted 08 October 2005 18:07 EDT (US)     4 / 24  
Praaspa and Seleucia first. Then Egypt is going to be a B**&% so they need to be eliminated quickly and their cities sacked. Otherwise they quickly bring in Chariot Generals in massive numbers. Bedouin Mercenaries will be key to boosting your army. Also, it would do well to conquer the Scythians quickly as well to gain control of the excellent harbors for trading with Thrace. Whenever you conquer a city, kill everyone for the cash, it saves trouble down the road while allowing you to push on. Once Scythia and Egypt are gone, finish Seleucia, then Armenia, then Pontus, and end with Thrace. You will now have a good power base and can go any way you want. Me personaly, I stormed through Africa pillaging every where and then went into Italy while my Greek Allies fought the Bruttii. Now I am in a consolidation phase for going after Rome and Forcing it to become a Protecorate. (Evil Laughter)
posted 08 October 2005 18:33 EDT (US)     5 / 24  
Thanks all for the advice.

I wound up having to go back to a game I had saved 20 campaign years prior to get out of my last hole before coming back to check on responses.
BGTom, dunno how you go with the "Egypt needs to be eliminated quickly" approach, lol. I'm doing okay but I've lost Susa to them and am using Selecia as a magnet to defeat their large armies in defensive battles (not that easy for a cavalry civ & yes, I got greedy and didn't follow my own buffer state advice). I think its your method of using the 'execute population' command when you take cities. That does work wonders but its not how I roll. You have to admit the game is pretty easy when you get about 7K in gold every time you take a city. Why not just mod it so the enemy troops aren't allowed to moved from their starting points? Lol. I like to play for a challenge and only sack the cities that have gone over to rebels. Even so, I agree with you that playing Parthia you need it. (Scythian cities always seem to go rebel at a certain point in game). Eliminating the rebel population of the Campus city (campus alanae?) that borders you near your top Parthian city helps ALOT.
Yuri, I agree with you that playing defense is a necessity in the beginning but that method does seem a bit repetitive. They way I'm going now is using Kotais & Selecia as magnets to win defensive seige battle in. Since Parthian infantry so weak, I'm keeping it off the walls and near the town square. Mass them in the steets to bog down enemy cav & chariots (many times in the chaos of running through the gate the enemy generals get ahead of their troops and can be swamped) while missle cav rains down arrows. Pick the right moment to counter charge with your general and watch the entire enemy army turn white & run. When you upgrade to stone walls both Egypt & Pontus take alot of damage breaking in and that helps as well.
Themistocles, your advice seems to go best with how my campaign is playing out, the only thing I'd add is that once Armenia is weakened and someone is going to take them-- Parthia has to seize Kotais-- they NEED that black sea port to trade with Thrace or whoever owns the other side to maintain a real economy, When I replayed and did that I went from barely making 200 denarri/turn when I wasn;t under siege and going negative when I was, to making 800 when I wasn't and 200 was I was.
Lentulus-- don't know if its hard coded or not, but certainly seems to play that way.

Thanks all.

posted 08 October 2005 20:56 EDT (US)     6 / 24  
I would not advise that you run around until the time limit expires. In fact, i would not advise even turning the time limit on.

Why would you abandon campus sakae? Your economy is weak enough, you need every little bit you can get. (and please don't tell me campus sakae loses money, if so read #11 of the noob faq, or read the manual)

[This message has been edited by Themistocles472 (edited 10-08-2005 @ 08:56 PM).]

posted 09 October 2005 11:22 EDT (US)     7 / 24  
LegionaireX, Egypt is easy if you use your Cavalry correctly. You should be using Cantabarian circle to mow down their Spear men while you use massed Camels to kill the Chariots or hold them so your General can hit them in the rear along with your Capaphract Camels. Then strike deep and sack their towns. For your cities, break siege by massing your Eastern Infantry at the gate with Archers on the Ramparts with fire arrows for the center Archer unit and the two side ones set to regular fire. Position one Eastern Infantry unit inside the Gate so it is open. The Egyptian will then move in for what I call a S@#% Kicking Contest which gets their General killed and their infantry slaughtered.

If you have wooden walls use catapults in your defense backed by archers.

posted 09 October 2005 11:29 EDT (US)     8 / 24  
Fear not, I am no n00b to this game. My logic is simple. All that Campus Sakae does is tie down troops that are better used elsewhere, namely horse archers. It does little to aid you for a long time to come and is hard to control as it is far from your capital. The Parthia economy is just about strong enough to cope with the loss of that city and once you take the Armenian cities and Phraapsa then you have a more powerful economy (although still weak) and you can have your troops which were defending Campus Sakae guarding the entrances to your realm. You need the troops and you can afford the loss if you move quickly to take Armenia and Phraapsa. It is not worth the troops or the bother to control and offering to the Scythians is another way of cementing an alliance keeping them off your back whilst you seek domination of Asia Minor.
posted 09 October 2005 11:41 EDT (US)     9 / 24  
Yuri Andropov, I must disagree. Campus Sakae is an important area that must be held. Then again, I held it through sheer military skill and conquering Scythia quickly. By taking Scythia, I had a strong trade with Thrace, Greece, Dacia, and Macedonia. As a matter fact I had so much money I was able to buy off Rhodes from Greece to make my sea trade even more profitable, especially when I took Bysantium.
posted 09 October 2005 15:56 EDT (US)     10 / 24  
BGTom, how then, tell me, do you react when your lands are invaded by an overwhelming tide of Egyptians? Or at least that's what happened with me.
posted 09 October 2005 21:52 EDT (US)     11 / 24  
Yuri Andropov, I fight them and I kill them using every trick I got. I also as said above, kill them in S@#$% kicking contests that I win 9/10 times and I always strike at their ciies and eliminate them by sacking them for the money to buy Elephants to kick their A$$ again. And always do I keep going as I rarely lose a man in my battles, so it always moving and pillaging for me. Hell all my Generals have the Pillager trait and start the battle speech by talking about the camp women being appreciative. That pillager trait gets me 10% extra money from sacking. Thus I sack and my reputation is such that many armies just fall apart when they face my gold chevron units. Thus is the power of the Horse and Bow of Persian Cavalry and the mighty charge of the Cataphract Camels. Plus the Elephants and a case of whiskey.......... (Rants on)
posted 10 October 2005 00:15 EDT (US)     12 / 24  
Yuri: What do you propose, taking the horse archers from campus sakae and marching them all the way down to the rest of your settlements?

Even if that's the plan there is no reason you cannot keep campus sakae. Like I recommended, don't worry about the military there just stock it with peasants to keep the order. How are you wasting military units on it? The parthian economy is so weak I can't understand why you would do anything that makes it even worse.

I still see absolutely no reason to abandon it. Put some peasants there and leave ita lone. Maybe build a temple once in awhile to keep them happy. It will just sit there in the corner of the map and make money for virtually the entire game.

posted 13 October 2005 14:22 EDT (US)     13 / 24  
There is a bireme in the sea which I use to take the horse archers away. Your points are good about training peasants, but I found that as soon as I moved the horse archers away, the population revolted. I tried this several times with the same result and I tried keeping the horse archers there till I had some more peasants, but it meant that I did not have enough men to destroy Armenia quickly enough. I found that I didn't really need it and offering it to Scythia was a good way to cement my alliance with them (having tried the opening stages to the Parthian campaign many times) It was just using up men garrisoning it and they cost upkeep. It was also not easy to defend I found when Scythia tried to attack it. They did this sometimes if I did not give it to them.
posted 14 October 2005 07:29 EDT (US)     14 / 24  
Yuri, you don't need those horse archers. If you use your men wisely, you will lose few people and conquer Armenia with ease.
posted 14 October 2005 12:22 EDT (US)     15 / 24  
I have tried your method, and I found that it works very well. It is far quicker than my method, however, I prefer mine as it is amusing to be a small, almost insignificant power and then to suddenly launch a devastating series of attacks which make me into a major force to be feared.
posted 14 October 2005 14:25 EDT (US)     16 / 24  
As parthia the two units of cataphracts, along with all available family members and other (weaker) military units you can piece together should be enough.

When I was playing as armenia not long ago on h/vh I did the opposite and took Parthia effectively out of the game early. (armenia is a better faction anyway, IMO....) I took out their cataphracts and the few units they had with them first and it was all downhill from their. Massed family members plus catas can accomplish a lot in the early game.

posted 19 October 2005 09:46 EDT (US)     17 / 24  
Personally I think that Armenia has a too powerful combination of units. Once they can build their best units then there is no challenge playing as them and so there is no fun.
posted 19 October 2005 13:03 EDT (US)     18 / 24  
There aren't too many factions that dont' have strong units when you get further along. Having Cataphracts is really all you should need. There isn't an AI army out there that can beat a pile of them used wisely.

There are very good units available for Parthia, Armenia, Pontus, Seleucia, Egypt, Romans, Germania, Carthage.... To have only one very good unit available you must play as Gaul, The Greek Cities or Spain and to get no very good units try Numidia and maybe either Dacia or Thrace.

posted 23 October 2005 01:43 EDT (US)     19 / 24  
"There are very good units available for Parthia, Armenia, Pontus, Seleucia, Egypt, Romans, Germania, Carthage.... To have only one very good unit available you must play as Gaul, The Greek Cities or Spain and to get no very good units try Numidia and maybe either Dacia or Thrace. "

I think you're selling the Greeks short. Obviously the Spartans are a great unit but they're also an enabler-- if they are on the field, armored hoplites with a little experience will shine as well. Both in campaign and multiplayer. In short cash battles 4 spartan units plus 2 armored hoplites and a little support will mop the field with most roman armies that spend the same amount of cash ...or I've just had good luck.

[This message has been edited by LegionaireX (edited 10-23-2005 @ 01:43 AM).]

posted 23 October 2005 16:29 EDT (US)     20 / 24  
Or you can do what I do in such a case. Just hold on to your core cities and attack the enemy cities that are not guarded well enough. Slaughter the population and destroy all the buildings that you can, you will get quite a lot of money this way. Leave it undefended, even when the AI takes it back, they will not be able to build military units immediately. They will have to spend time and money, to rebuild the city. This leads to a question: Do all the AI cheat in money matters or only S.P.Q.R? Do they at least take the normal amount of turns to build up? In any case I found that this weakens the enemy significantly, and you don't have to spend money defending too many cities. I find this effective. If anyone has any constructive criticism, it is welcome.

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posted 25 October 2005 11:16 EDT (US)     21 / 24  
I prefer to take and hold territory. I find that the taking and then razing to the ground strategy doesn't really work, because the AI doesn't really attempt to rebuild and so I can't keep coming back and destroying it. This is a good thing in the case of cities like Memphis, Alexandria and Thebes, but I prefer to take and then use those cities.
posted 25 October 2005 12:14 EDT (US)     22 / 24  
^^^ Quite Correct, but I have to do this at times where I simply don't have the resources to hold the city. It's more of a strategy to cripple the enemy than build an empire.

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[This message has been edited by THANATOS (edited 10-25-2005 @ 12:16 PM).]

posted 25 October 2005 23:13 EDT (US)     23 / 24  
I've been doing/practicing some practice custom battles. I can win the battles, but often times I'm running out of arrows and have several units route away.

How do you micromanage such a large battle? Also, how do you divide the enemy up without taking forever luring one unit at a time? I can't seem to divide them well, If I run into melee, there is always some nearby unit who will charge my cataphracts while they are working on another enemy unit. Ussually I can't finish off that unit because I don't have time, since there is always some other nearby enemy unit charging to save their slaughtered friends (or at least catch the calvary when they are stationary)

Is every unit long exhausted by the end of the battles? Unless you all know something, it seems to me like Human Parthian battles are extremely long and slow paced... while extremely fast paced in terms of micromanagement.

posted 25 October 2005 23:25 EDT (US)     24 / 24  
Thanatos: It is quite well known that the AI cheats. I believe it's fair on medium, infinite money on hard and infinite money plus the ability to cheat and construct buildings/recruit units in very short time periods (even multiple units in one turn).
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