You say the archers fire on the enemy units after your infantry have already reached the line, then after some time you send your heavy infantry to the phalanxes. Wouldn't they already be pinned against some since your lines have already met? How do you keep the infantry and phalanxes from engaing while you wait for archers if they lines have met?

When you say it works best with greece and macedon you mean it works best against greece and macedon, I assume?

What kind of archers does it take to make a unit of armoured hoplites route from missile fire? And you are firing at them from the front??

Against the AI defeating phalanx heavy armies is very easy if you have any decent forces.or hitting the rear of their engaged phalanxes.

There are just to manny damn ways to kill thewm. yours seems overly complex

Simplest answer this side of anything:

Rhodian Slingers. Protect them and a single unit can turn a huge chunk of the army away single-handedly.

seige weapons anyone?

Are they worth a damn? Aside from onagers, I never hear about people using them. Maybe a ballista or two just inside the gates of a city to plow down the first few rounds of men, but they're so slow and fragile that I don't see why they'd be more effective in the long run than just better-trained or equipped phalanxes.

That goes double for siege warfare anyway, since holding an enemy in the gatehouse bottlenecks them so they have to fight one on one, and exposes the rest of their force to boiling oil, tower arrows and wall defenders if you have them.

[This message has been edited by inkdrinker (edited 10-16-2005 @ 06:12 PM).]

They are referring to using siege weapons against phalanxes, not siege weapons to be used by phalanx using factions.

Siege weapons do great amounts of damage to troops that are tightly packed. Scorpions can kill a large number of units, and they don't care how good the units are. Spartans will die just as easily as militia hoplites when being hit by siege weapons.

Right, I got that they're saying use 'em against phalanxes. I've become such a Grecophile lately, though, that not having phalanxes or at least really kick-ass spearmen at bottlenecks just seems unthinkable.

I guess I just don't keep the kinds of static formations that make most siege equipment useful. Onagers are pretty much an eternal exception for busting down walls, but that's about all I've seen artillery units do that slingers couldn't do with more speed, a higher rate of fire and battlefield adaptability.

[This message has been edited by inkdrinker (edited 10-16-2005 @ 06:41 PM).]

Slingers can't kill 20 men (spartans or general's bodyguard even) in one shot. They don't have near the range either.

I don't use them much, but only because I don't usually upgrade my archery range and they have horrible movement points.

The stupidest bullshit I can think of is that you lose movement points due to the siege weapons even when they are on a ship.

Sure, but have you compared their "Comedy" stat? Slingers have like... a 37 in that. Artillery ranks a measly 12.

*aims at a general* Ffffffffffff-TONK!

In city streets, I've found they're invaluable when backed by a phalanx. Units charge up, see the wall of spears behind the slingers and turn to run. At JUST that moment, a barrage of rocks goes straight for the ol' medulla.

Ffffffffffffffffff-TONK-TONK-TONK-TONK!

For armoured hoplites and archers, normal arrows won't work because the armour rating is too high. You need to switch to flaming arrows. It won't kill many of them but it will reduce their morale and they'll often break on first contact. Once they rout, you can wipe them out. This works on vh/vh.
Why waste infantry taking them on from the front to hold them in place for a flank attack? The AH's will cause big casualties before they break.

For an infantry heavy army (principes, Triari, Phlanx Pikeman, Armoured Hoplites, ...) the best counter unit is the cavalry.
My favourite enemies are Greeks and Macedons. They always have lots of long spear infantry units.
With its high mobility, it's quite easy to send out one cavalry unit to lure out a small number of infantry units. Keep them charging at the bait and have other cavalry units charge their flank or rear. An infantry unit attacked from flank or rear is a dead unit.

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Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the units in question. You charge a unit of Equites into the back of an un-engaged unit of Armoured Hoplites and you get a bunch of dead equites.

[This message has been edited by Themistocles472 (edited 10-18-2005 @ 02:32 AM).]

I just slambang Phalances with Infantry and hit them in the rear with cavalry, then I kill them all. When playing as Parthia, I mow them down like grass.

Phlangites should be taken out with missile troops. They have little armour, and will be torn apart. Hoplites should be engaged from the sides with Elite Slingers or Javelins. Wardogs are also very effective. A basic pin and flank works well, against all phalanx troops. In short, use the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

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Good point. As described in my earlier post, the key is to lure the units towards you. Let me rephrase:
A charging infantry unit attacked from flank or rear is a dead unit.

I don't think that even hitting a charging unit from the rear will do it in the equites vs armoured hoplites example. The hoplites should be able to stop, turn around, present spears and destroy the equites.

The key to that in your given situation would be charging the new rear of the formation, with the unit that was doing the luring, as soon as they about face to meet their attacker. Maybe even a third unit on the flank for good measure. You will definately take casualties to the light cavalry, but should win.

The great part about using cavalry agains AI phalanxes is that you can manipulate them greatly and produce two or three on one unit engagements.

[This message has been edited by Themistocles472 (edited 10-18-2005 @ 01:38 PM).]

I was playing Brutii in h/h long campaign. I have eliminated Greeks and Macedons but haven't fought Egypt yet. I always meet enemy army with significant fewer units with the objective to earn experience point easier and because all my units except one or two are equites. The fewer the cavalry units the enemy army has the fewer units I will send because fighting those Armored Hoplites with cavalry is just too easy using equites.

Themistocles472, your point is valid. I have to add that this all depends and let's not sell short on the light equites. Maybe you are talking about very hard setting game which I never tried and don't plan to. Yes, the higher the difference between the infantry's defense points and your cavalry's attack points, the more cavalry units you have to dispatch. As you pointed out, manage the units accordingly based on the enemy units action is also the key. If the enemy infantry has switched direction and facing your pursuing cavalry, of course you need to react.
In addition to my saying, "A charging infantry unit attacked from flank or rear is a dead unit."
A Calvary engaging spear fronts is a dead unit.

For all of you who say a unit of flaming archers can cause a unit of hoplites rout when they reach your lines what level are you playing on?

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SPQR vh/vh. Worked on armoured hoplites. Flaming arrows will barely kill any of them but it will reduce their morale. Then again, the AI is phish.

Something that has worked well for me, when I am attacked by an army that is predominantly phalanx units, is to split up my forces into 2 or 3 groups, and keep space in between my infantry units. This is a strategy (that of course only works against the AI) that can be successful even when greatly outnumbered, IF the opposing army has little or no Cav units (max of 2, maybe 3 but that's pushing it). I have won battles, sometimes with very little casualties, where I was outnumbered 3 to 1, by luring the phalanxes away from each other. A wall of phalanx units is nearly impossible to defeat when you are seriously outnumbered, but once the units are split up, and fighting as individual units, they become extremely vulnerable. The main reason is that they are very slow, and instead of having only 1 flankable direction (the rear), they have 3. This strategy works really well when you have at least 1 Cav unit and 1 archer unit, as long as they don't gang up on you with Cavalry. It does take a lot of micro though, since you have units all over the battle field.