i would suggest researching each faction before playing. i am doing that myself and am getting a lot of tips. it can be good to know a countries background. and to know REAL enemies.

Tip: The Greeks are the best.

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Yes, I think so too. The Greeks are the best... at getting utterly annhilated by the Julii before any other civ, at least in my games... and usually within the first five years. And the Macedonians are second to be expunged.

As Julii, job #1, bar none, (for me) is to totally eradicate the backstabbing Greeks. Taking the Greeks within 5 years of start also turns on wonders for the Julii and allows the cash cow of Athens to gushing denarii! Greeks are also the best at being whimps, since I usually do it with only mercenaries, generals, and a few Equites. Even the Sparan Hoplite is a woosie... if you don't let it come to grips with your early game cav. The only good greek is a dead greek, and I enjoy making 'good' Greeks... yup, they truly are "the best"!!! Yee-hah!

RESSURECTION !!! BEWARE

In fairness to the Greeks, besides keeping "my" six cities nice and cozy for 2 to 5 years until my magnificent Julii can hurry home to them, the Greeks do have a positive military value. They have the mercenary hoplite that I can recruit in good numbers. So in that sense, they do live on after the Greek civ bites the dust. That merc sometimes helps in city sieges & street fighting, and is essential for rapid early expansion in my Julii (and indeed, all Roman) games. It is also good on the walls, esp. when I take Athens from the mercs.

Julii opening moves are already written by Adder:
http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/strategy/campaign/civ/2004/11/21/opening_julii/

Other factions:
http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/strategy/campaign/civ/

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There is no way that the Romans are better than the Greeks. I use a full stack of Spartan Holpites against a full stack of Urban Cohorts and I waste them. I walk right over them. I have never had a single unit of Spartan Hoplites rout to Romans. Stupid Romans sit there and take half an hour to throw their pilum which does nothing, meanwhile, the enemy is massacring them, then they rout after a thirty seconds.

Greeks suck. Give me any Eastern civ and I'll waste them. Hoplites are simply too inflexible. Heck, I've even beaten the Greeks using Iberia.

The other way around, I can beat any faction with the Greeks.

Greeks rule. When defending a seige I don't even protect my walls. Let the romans in so they can get slaughtered in the streets. If you want some calvary go north and get some sarmatians. Use multiple lines of hoplites and you can easily manuvre against atempted flanks. You don't have to worry if one unit is good against calvary or infantary, as long as you keep them in front of you, which is easy against the AI.

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You've got to be kiddin me, Spartans are the best units in the whole bleeding game

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You've got to be kiddin me(again) use hastati on the walls, hoplites suck when fighting out of phalanx, (spartans don't btw)

[This message has been edited by Tarquinius (edited 11-18-2005 @ 01:10 PM).]

Are the Attack/Defense points for hoplites supposed to represent their power before or after they're in a phalanx?

Yes, The spartans are the best, but how many you can create in the game are unrealistic to how many there were in real life.

The stats in the unit description do not take phalanx formation into account, however out of phalanx hoplites tend to use their secondary attack. So the displayed attack is in phalanx, defence is out of phalanx.

No faction is the best. All have different advantages and disadvantages that make them more or less appealing, depending on the taste and playing style of the player.

Yeaton u strating a Julii Campaign?

Lord Dragatus, what you are saying applies to BI, but don't you think that in RTW the Roman factions are overpowered? All you have to do is wait for Marius to kick in, then say bye-bye to Non-Romans.

LOL, the thread is about the Julii, and in the face of the Julii, to call the AI Greeks woosies is to pay them a compliment. Of all the Civs when I play as Julii, the Greeks are the biggiest sissies. The lone unit of Spartan Hoplites that the early Greeks possess was beaten by my equites (albiet I did have tremendous respect which was manifest in how I micromanaged the attacks on it) in 2 out of 3 times I have played the full Julii campaign. One time it stayed put, and I had to use archers and my FL (yes, my FLs fight) in the the TC.

The merc hoplites are essential for me to take Athens since I simultaneously assault Greece in three places, and wipe them off the map as soon as the game begins, which leaves me stretched thin for Hastati, esp. given the creation/transport lag in the first several game turns.

I have never faced a late game Greek, nor a stack of their Spartan Hoplites. I know the capabilities very well, however. They would be formidible in human hands, but the AI is not human, and I'll take eary genreal cavalry and equites over a single unit of Spartan Hoplites... the mobility of the cavalry is dominate, assuming you can get them out of the streets or TC. If not, archers and slingers of Crete will do the job. In 2 of 3 games, the Spartan Unit (singular... this is in year 4 or 5 in my games) routed in the face of slingers and equites. But they did stand firm much longer than their Levy Pikeman country'men'.

In short, the Greek civ is an early game cupcake... a flowerpuff... when faced with the prowess of the early Roman cavalry+archer juggernaught.

As for late game Greeks... ahh weellll, I guess I'll never have the pleasure of exterminating them, since they fail to survive long enough to bring their heads to the Julii chopping block.

Quoted from Tarquinius:

George S. Patton knew the weakness of fixed fortifications: "a monument to the stupidity of man." And the Hoplites are a fixed fortification in search of annhilation, albiet a marginally mobile one. One who fights even Levy Pikemen on their own terms can expect defeat. But the overwhelming weakness of hoplites of any flavor is their lack of mobility, and in RTW, exploitation of mobility in the hands of a human is the dominate factor.

However, on paper, I agree the 'stats' for SHs are impressive. But in my experience, SHs are far from the best unit in the game... but I don't wanna highjack the thread and throw out my opinions about the ol' "best unit" from the civ... ermmm, make that all civs... that totally own the Greeks (not just the Julii).

Quoted from Tarquinius:

LOL, not if a person fully understands how to use them. For example, some of my best use of hoplites is in the hoplite charge (out of phalanx, of course). Also, their lack of mobility can be negated somewhat in certain tactical situations by maneuvering out of Phalanx, then dropping into formation with precision timing, esp. in smaller unit battles like occur in the early game before the Greeks are extincitified.

Quoted from Imao:

Spot on. As Greeks, I crushed the Julii. And all the other civs... But I daresay it was harder to beat the Julii as Greek than as the Julii to beat the Greek.

So for the Julii guide... carve it in stone: Destroy the Greeks within 5 years. Maybe 8 years if you are slow.

Interstingly In my Carthaginian vh/h campaign the Greeks are as strong as me. As large as army and just about 5 territories less than me. I have 20 territories.

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 11-19-2005 @ 00:45 AM).]

Dude I know how to use hoplites

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We were talking about hoplites on WALLS

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What difficulty is this on dude VE or something

Even if you manage to charge your equites in the sides of a SH It will cost you about aal your equites in the following had-to-hand combat. The SH will slaughter them

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While that is a possible outcome, with the right preparation and execution, it is not inevitable, which I spoke about in more detail here.

About hoplites on the walls, they are singularly outstanding, in the context I described, since there is no better alternative when the Hastati are engaged (deployed) in other cities (like the simultaneous assault on Syracuse) at the moment you need soldiers on the walls in Athens. It is a matter of judging precisely where and in what quantity the troops must accomplish their tasks. To bring Hastati in to do a basic job (such as take Athens in early game) that the merc hoplites are already overqualified to do would slow the conquest rate (in my games), and I don't think the Greek cities could be taken by about 265, as Julii .

So for the Julii Guide which this thread is about, buy merc hoplites and use them to assault/defend (including the walls), and quickly eradicate the Greeks.