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Topic Subject: Phalanxes...easy? hah... i think
posted 18 November 2005 15:59 EDT (US)   
Ok, I am fighting germania as gaul... and losing bad... I even lost rome(which i had captured several turns ago) I do have the ability to build forester warbands.. but only in carthage(I own all of spain, carthage and that one territory right below it.) Is there a way to defeat phalanxes in general w/o using foresters as I can't build them fast(2 turns apiece)?
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posted 18 November 2005 17:12 EDT (US)     1 / 8  
Swordsmen supported by skirmishers. Naked fanatics are also good, they move fast and can out-manuever the phalanxes. Once a phalanx is struck in the rear, it is a dead phalanx.
posted 18 November 2005 18:13 EDT (US)     2 / 8  
Basically don't engage them from the front. If you can hire a few Mercenary Hoplites to pin them, flank them with cavalry. Otherwise use a unit of any melee infantry on each flank. Dogs work well on Hoplites but not Phlangites.

Basically, think of them as having one dangerous edge and three not very dangerous edges. Don't engage the dangerous edge, and you're singing.


Rome: Total War Heaven | Medieval II: Total War Heaven | Empire: Total War Heaven
"Do not stand behind Satan in the Post Office queue because the devil takes many forms."
"Your front-page picture of Kate Winslet with a plunging neckline being up for two golden globes was most appropriate."

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posted 18 November 2005 18:25 EDT (US)     3 / 8  
Armoured or Spartan hoplites are hard to kill no matter what you do, but heavy cavalry to the rear should do the job. Milita hoplite phalanxes break even from a strong frontal attack.

Imagination is more important than knowledge - Einstein
posted 18 November 2005 21:40 EDT (US)     4 / 8  
I think he is talking about German spearbands, I think you have the germania vs gual thing right? well they are bassicly invinicible form the front and damned hard form the rear even. best hope is just to mass sawrm there rear.
posted 19 November 2005 07:09 EDT (US)     5 / 8  

Quote:

but heavy cavalry to the rear should do the job.


He has 1.3, so it won't.
posted 19 November 2005 07:20 EDT (US)     6 / 8  
Phalanx attack. Of course, attack from the rear or at least flanks... but how, exactly I think he is wondering.

OK, I'll give add little more detail to this thread. The scope will be open battlefield destruction of phalanx units, including the tough, high-morale Spartan. First, Sun Tzu actually explained it thousands of years ago. Know your enemy, know yourself. That is, know your units, know the terrain, choose the conditions of battle. Generally, I have another condition for defeating Phalanxes... I want low casualties in my cavalry, which is the backbone of many of my own open-field phalanx attacks.

1. Choose the terrain. You don't want woods for cavalry (I hammer with cavalry, includilng my general(s) usually). I need open area, out of range of towers and walls. If possible, lure or allow them to come to your terrain of choice. Fight to the strength of your unit's terrain abilities.

2. Tire them (if possible). Bait/lure, and know that Phalanx tire much more quickly than cavalry, especially if you can get them to drop their phalanx formation temporarily and charge you. Make them come a long way and make them go UPHILL to reach you. Pepper them with arrows, for instance (if enemy Cavalry charges, which I personally hope happens, then destroy the enemy cav, then the Phalnax, but that's another thread topic). Do not let them stand and recover when they reach you.

3. Use maneuver! Use your cavalry speed and threat to break their formations... not attacking, but by moving around them and seeing their reaction. Break a large army into segments, separate those enemy chunks that will "answer" your maneuvers, and pick the "weak" or vulnerable chunk (e.g., a group that has turned and now faces/moves downhill), and bring all cav units necessary (use judgement/experience to know how much, and if you will need a general) on it and shatter them.

4. The physical assault. It must take place knowing the strength of your cavalry unit(s) and the history of the units your are attacking... what happened to them with arrows raining on them (wavering, e.g.), what is/has been their level of rest (warmed up, winded, tired, exhausted, etc)... This will tell you how quickly they will break, and set your attack vectors and quantities.

4.a. Know your cavalry, and know all about the stats, esp. the armor, charge bonus, etc. of the units youi have. Know their state of rest and morale.

4.b. Attacking & routing a Spartan Hoplite unit with minimal casualties to equites will likely need some prior assistance from terrain, support units, or location of battle. But if you march them around, weary them (e.g. at least winded), reduce some numbers with slingers or archers (you need to get some rear or side shots with good slingers like balerics or creteans to make progress here), think isolate them and hit with cavalry.

4.c. How to hit. It is not enough just to hit a stong phalanx unit (even a rested Levy) from behind to cause rout. You must create a short term, very high casualty rate, and get them to feel surrounded. For tough units like Spartans, it is best to coordinate several strikes in programmed sucession. One or two units hit from the rear, the phalanx begin to raise their weapons and maybe even re-face, then two more cav (or even infantry) make contact at full charge from what was a few seconds ago the front. If you mess this up, which will happen sometimes, well the Cav units will suffer, while the rest of the battlefield begins to close on you (remember you split the enemy apart, but now they will be homing in on you). However, if you do it right, even a Spartan will quickly rout.

5. Withdraw certain units: prepare to attack the "next" chunk of enemy phalanx without delay. Do not let your units decide for themselves to pursue on an active battlefield, with formations of unbroken enemy Phalanx milling about. Only you, the human, can assess and maneuver them in prepartaion for a repeat process on the next and the next formations.

6. Routing. When the path of retreat of the broken Phalanx and the tactical situation permits, I will continue to kill the retreating enemy. With militia, levy, or plain phalanx, a small, weak cav unit (e.g., lots of casualties alread, and maybe winded/tired) can continue the rout while your otehr units turn to attack the remaining unbroken enemy units. If it is Spartans you pursue, you will likely take casualties if weak cav attack them even when they are routing. Crush, don't nibble, Spartans. You can use infantry to assist.

7. Catchers. For open field battles, use 'catcher' cavalry to intercept and ensure minimal enemy flee the field. They can also be used to ensure the routes do not regroup. Normally use weak and/or reduced numbers units (e.g., a 13of54 unit equite can do the job on a fleeing remnant unit, usually).

Your maneuver skill, and cavalry lives pay the prices (normally a small price in open battlefields) to get a Phalanx (or any) unit to rout. You don't want to face that unit in later years, since you would have to do it all over again and pay perhaps a higher price. Commit to battlefiled elimination, and this means knowing or at least understanding how units rout, and the paths/ways that they will flee. This will in turn influnce how you maneuver, and which units and in what order you attack large formations.

I have left out many elements which are part of this too, like dealing with the enemy generals, archers, spearmen, etc. as you break enemy formations, for instance. But this is an introduction to open field Phalanx battles (human cavalry ve AI Phalanx). Human vs. human play can require a significant alteration in scope, and but the tactical principles are the same... you need to adjust, as Sun Tsu explined, by knowing your enemy . But that is another topic (H-H vs H-AI tactics).

Lastly, to keep the post length "short", I have not touched on urban tactics vs. phalanx. All that is required, however, is to reassess the changed battlefield and the constraints of the opponents.

Happy hunting...

posted 19 November 2005 08:12 EDT (US)     7 / 8  
I've found a very useful little bug with 1.2 causes enemy units to charge your phalanxes head on, even when they wouldn't usually. If you are defending, the enemy don't just stand there, they attack you.

If you have phalanxes in normal formation, they will rush you in normal formation if they are phalanx troops. I think that the AI issues orders with similar timing to a human player. If you put your troops into phalanx formation after the AI issues the charge order, it is never countermanded. I beat a unit of Spartans and four units of Armoured Hoplites with 5 untis of Mercenary Hoplites with no losses using this strategy, because the AI charged them in normal formation into my phalanxes. It's just one of those little helpful things you find out.

I don't know if it is in 1.3 as well, but it seems to affect a lot of AI actions. To generalise, allowing the AI an obvious advantage, then taking it away before he can capitalise but after the order to take your bait has been given will allow huge tactical victories (nothing strategic here, this is tactics).


Rome: Total War Heaven | Medieval II: Total War Heaven | Empire: Total War Heaven
"Do not stand behind Satan in the Post Office queue because the devil takes many forms."
"Your front-page picture of Kate Winslet with a plunging neckline being up for two golden globes was most appropriate."

Unpublished letters to the Daily Telegraph
posted 19 November 2005 11:38 EDT (US)     8 / 8  
Even in 1.3 heavy cavalry to the rear, once they are engaged from the front, should do it. Maybe it will take a cycle or two, but it should work. Spear Warband are a low quality unit, after all.
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