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Topic Subject: Lame but effective trick to defend cities - has anybody else tried it?
posted 01 December 2005 11:36 EDT (US)   
Decided to tell about the trick I discovered a while ago. It's a long story - I'll have to begin a bit further.

I do worship Cretan archers - they kick ass, especially when you get to upgrade them at Artemis's temple. That's the reason (not mentioning the island itself is nice ) why I always try to capture Crete a.s.a.p., when playing someone around eastern Mediterranean. That was also the case, when I was playing Carthaginians - I sent an expedition there at once to capture the island and start recruiting mercenaries, as I figured they would come in real handy when I decided to march on Rome once in future. As I couldn't waste anyone in my family to stay around long, I bribed some Greek jerk from continent to build up the province and recruit those mercenary archers.

Some 10 years passed and everything fared fine, when the Greeks apparently decided, that such a treachery could not go forgotten nor forgiven, and landed two separate armies beneath my walls - well, stockades - simultaneously.

At this point I had 3 cohorts of local merc. arhchers, 1 of Rhodian slingers, 1 of merc. hoplites - and my renegade good-for-nothing-inefficient-in collecting-taxes governor, who had never seen a battle nor command star acting as a garrison.

Southern army was just a small detachment - 2 cohorts of militia hoplites, 1 of armoured hoplites and 1 of Rhodian slingers - while northern one was a major pain - 5-star general, 15 cohorts of armoured hoplites, 4 of simple hoplites - all with upgraded weaponry and bronze or silver chevrons.

Realizing that once they layed siege and built rams I would be hopelessly screwed, and being too far for any reinforcements (I could not even get out to recruit any more mercs), I "sallied forth" to attack the smaller enemy army.
However, as I feared, their friends joined in too, so (un)balance of forces became some 3/20 in their favour.

Well, I decided to make a brave stand, so I killed off southern ones (mainly using my general to save arrows), then used him as a bait to provoke norhern ones, who had reached close in the meanwhile, into chase around my walls, so their right side would be towards my archers and towers. I also managed to lure enemy general into my merc. hoplites and kill him. However, arrows ended and though my towers kept firing, those damn armoured hoplites have good morale and even better armour. As I had no heart to send my precious archers into melee - especially under such uneven circumstances - the time ran out and draw was declared.

To my surprise, (probably because I DID destroy my initial adversaries, as I figured out later)I suffered no casualties additional to those few merc. hoplites lost in battle, nor did I lose the city (however - none of my units or the general gained any experience).
So, with arrows and strength replenished, I attacked the enemy again. (Some 12-13 cohorts of armoured hoplites was still left of them). Frankly, I didn't make it. Arrows and time ended, and about half of them remained. Draw again. However THIS time (probably because I did NOT destroy any armies), the draw meant, that both armies simply disappeared :S

I thought this was unfair, so I reloaded :$ and used the same trick to my advantage :P

As I could now get out, I left the city behind(far enough), recruited a cohort of merc. peltasts, sent them into garrison, and attacked the enemy. I killed five of them, then retreated behind my gates, tripled game speed and grabbed a sandwhich:P

After the battle had ended in a draw, I sure lost my peltasts, but the Greek punishment-expedition - probably their very military core - was gone too.

Pretty cheap a trick to be honest, but I figured, that after the death of their general and having no siege equipment whatsoever, the besiegers got fed up with getting fired at under my walls and resorted to finer things in life - mainly local wine and women

Has anybody else fooled AI like that?:P

NB! Sorry for long talk and possible mistakes - English is not my native language :/


Replies:
posted 01 December 2005 12:24 EDT (US)     1 / 12  
Cretan archers do kick a$$!

Regarding your "disappearing enemy" trick - was their fleet still at your coastline? They may have withdrawn to their fleet (though this shouldn't really happen in a draw situation).

Did you get the "the enemy army has disbanded and need not worry us any longer" message? I've had that a couple of times, but usually after defeating 90% or so of their force while I lose maybe 10-20%...

posted 01 December 2005 14:55 EDT (US)     2 / 12  
No fleet and no message...

Anyway, enemy theoretically might have withdrawn, but what about my own 6 cohorts? They too disappeared into thin air before my load

Never needed to try this again so far (now that I think of it, I've never had another drawn battle either), so I'm not sure whether it was a bug, or are armies meant to disappear after a draw :/

posted 01 December 2005 15:26 EDT (US)     3 / 12  
Actually it's named units, not cohorts. You can say cohort if you are speaking of one of the post-marius roman infantry units (exept for arcani, peasants, town watch and gladiators) because of that they are actually named xx cohort tought.

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posted 01 December 2005 15:31 EDT (US)     4 / 12  
Historically speaking, right as hell you are...
However, every unit is named "cohort" on battle outcome sheet, which is why I used the word.
Point taken tho
posted 01 December 2005 17:56 EDT (US)     5 / 12  
Comments based on patch 1.2 behavior: Although I have not personally had a draw before, your armies should not disappear, unless they had to fight to the death (you will know it on the initial battle screen). Armies fighting to the death which survive on the battlefield will be 'killed' if the overall battle is lost. This is true for the AI, too, and it works. Hopefully others can comment on personal experience with draws...
posted 01 December 2005 19:17 EDT (US)     6 / 12  
Might it be that when there is a draw, both sides are condidered loser? In that case, this wouldn't be so strange anymore, since the army in the city always fight to the death, and if the enemy army also had run out of MP, then that would mean that they fight to the death too. And since an army is killed when it's fighting to it's death, this would be explained if a draw is considered as both sides loosing.

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posted 02 December 2005 09:38 EDT (US)     7 / 12  
Whenever I have a draw while beseiging a city, The seige remains on.

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posted 02 December 2005 09:49 EDT (US)     8 / 12  

Quote:

Whenever I have a draw while beseiging a city, The seige remains on.

Same here

posted 04 December 2005 15:33 EDT (US)     9 / 12  
Get to the point where you can build stone walls, place your archers on them, and lure the enemy close to your walls with a cav unit or two. Once the cavalry units are back inside the city, the enemy units usually turn around and run away, exposing their backs to your arrows. They usually get completely decimated before they get back to their lines.

Tsavong Lah
Tá Críost éirithe! Go deimhin tá sé éirithe!
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.
posted 04 December 2005 16:34 EDT (US)     10 / 12  
I did something really cool when doing the battle of Cynocephilae...

Okay. I had fought the battle pretty crappy, and I came down to my javalin throwers and my general. Here's the catch: my General is at half strength and my javalin throwers have no javalins. And they have 5 of those damn phalanxes left. (Fortunately, they had nothing else) So what I did was i'd lure the Phalanxes near my Javalin throwers and then charged at them from behind with my cav. If I timed it just right, i'd hit then when their spears were sticking straight up. I did this for all the phalanxes, and pretty soon they were running for their lives.

posted 04 December 2005 18:22 EDT (US)     11 / 12  
The only way that a draw is possible is in a sally battle when the defenders (of the city) either pull back in and exit the battle or run out of time as far as I know.

I would have tried something similar. I have used a very corny trick as the Greeks when my army of about 6 assorted Hoplites, 4 Militia Cavalry, 4 Peltasts, 2 Cretan Archers and my best General was besieged in Apollonia by a full stack of Brutii infantry with two generals (Amulius and Aulus). I lined up my units around the inside of the walls (still Wooden Palisade). I sent my General out of the back gates and the enemy army charged him - taking about 20% casualties from my missile fire and towers in the process. I just repeated it a couple of times until the enemy decided not to play ball any more (and most of my missile units were out of ammo). The enemy were thus sufficiently depleted to allow me to actually go out and kill them with very little losses.

Another good one is when you ahve Stone Walls or higher, you line up some sort of phalanx troops in a semicircle around one gate with ant missile troops you have on the walls. As the enemy come close, open the gates by moving close to them, and the enemy drop their siege equipment and run for the gap. I had a Seleucid army besieging me, they charged in with 3 Armoured Elephants and 2 Scythed Chariots, which routed immediately from the boiling oil and killed most of the 6 Cataphracts that were following up. The remaining Catas lasted about 10 seconds in the gate themselves. 2 minutes into battle, my losses 1%, enemy losses about 45% including general and all cavalry. Is tayed there and wiped out most of the infantry too, just sending cavalry out to chase routers (after turning my missile fire off). I killed an army of about 1400 with no survivors for less than 50 losses myself. All down to the AI's stupidity.


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posted 05 December 2005 01:50 EDT (US)     12 / 12  
Yeah, seems it was a bug after all... yesterday my friends the Julii backstabbed me while I was playing with Germania and had just destroyed Gauls and Britons. They attacked Narbo Martius with a full stack army of Velites, Hastati and Triarii (fortunately no general). I had three groups of Chosen Archers and another three of barbarian mercenaries, so I just provoked them beneath my walls and started shooting. 60% enemy casualties, 0 mine and a draw. This time, however, both armies remained.

I have to conclude, that as long as you have archer superiority (even if it is 1 archer vs 20 infantry ), fear no siege - if your arrows run out, you can attack again and be victorios in the end. Of course it helps, if you have someone you can send out for them to chase around your walls - let them tower guards do some sharpshooting

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