Posted by mistake.

[This message has been edited by Sparrow (edited 11-05-2005 @ 08:23 PM).]

This map is so tough! It is very hard to get the right balance between military and economics, not to mention holding off sizeable invasions while trying to raise your own army to be used in attack.

[This message has been edited by NAT (edited 11-07-2005 @ 05:42 AM).]

Yes, it's a very tough one.

Ok, my strategy is failing, I have been playing on hard and am not making much progress

I try and get as much wood in as possible as fast as possible. The first building I place is the market, I then buy in a lot of wood (150ish) and place loads of woodcutters, quarries, hovels and some wheat farms. I then exapnd as fast as possible, always building and getting in more wood. I build extensions to the main fort and begin building a weapons factory in the middle.

By the time the first set of invasions arrive I have quite a large army of archers, and plenty of spearmen set behind them. I have the extensions of my castle surrounded by moat yet the enemy still do so much damage. The two times I have played I have survived but I am in a terrible state. I have maybe 175 stone stockpiled, some money and wood so I can rebuild but I only get into the same position so I can get attacked again. The idea that I would attack the other forts is a distant dream! I am getting nowhere

It would be so much easier if you could build macemen and crossbowmen, archers and spearmen are not good enough!

Believe me, this is a very hard one...as you're finding out. I can give you hints if you like, but want to be sure you're actually asking for some.

NAT, the main problem on this map is getting the stone.

I've tried different tactics, and at the moment, the best I can do is: kill all enemies (both castles), get 16000 + and... get a maximum of 500 stones...

From the beginning, get something like 50/60 archers to get rid of the black archers near the available stone.
Positionning them on the highest positions around allows you not to loose too many.
A "must do" combination is to quickly break in thru the walls, just to eliminate the hunter's post, as this is the main hassle regarding the exploitation of stone. As he gets out of the castle near each stone area, he always kill the oxen and the men driving them to the stockpile...

At this time, you do not have enough archers left to do the same to the red castle... So, back on producing archers in order to try to do it before the main attack occurs.

The quarry near the black castle is never attacked and does not need to be protected. The one near the red castle needs to be surrounded by walls and a gate as it will be attacked with the invasions coming from the south, but with this configuration, when the wolfes attack, they will stay there, inside the walls, killing the oxen and the men driving them...

All of this must be done in combination with getting a strong runing economy... in order to face the major invasion.

No matter what, you MUST start collecting stone as soon as possible.

I will try something that just came to my mind tonight, I'll let you know about it tomorrow.

Macemen and crossbowmen would make it very easy, to my opinion. I think extra available stone would be a must, the stone could be located inside one/both castle(s) so it it could be exploited later in the game, once the castle has been taken. On another hand, churches are available so you can make your people happier (Better defense). But you can't hurry them with bad things...

[This message has been edited by Duc de Noisiel (edited 11-12-2005 @ 06:14 AM).]

I wanted to make a little experimentation just to see.... It took me one hour with the game speed set on 90. Here is what I did:

I went into the editor, erased all invasions and all defending forces in both enemy castles, and also erased both enemy woodcutters and hunter's posts. I left all the other events.

I started this version of the map, buying wood with all the gold available from the beginning, and building quarries straight away. I added four ox tethers near each quarry, after they had already produced like 25 stones on each. The stockpile was left in its original position, just extended to store all the goods. I deleted the chapel which gave me five extra stones. My intention was only to see how many stones I could collect within the thirty game years. I also opened the right side of the defense wall with a door in order to quicken the transportation from the quarry near the red castle.

A few invasion of wolves did bother me a bit, killing a few oxen and the men driving them. What did really slow them down is that the bottom of the stockpile near the quarry was reached often and the men went picking up stones from the other quarry as well, crossing the map from a side to another many times.

I reached the amount of 1005 stones by june 1130... and ended up with 1053 stones.

This has been done with no interruption or bothering beside the invasions of wolves.

Considering the fact that in the original scenario of the map you have to face two strong invasions plus a few smaller ones and that you have to deal with the hunter's, I really wonder how it could be possible to store 1000 stones within thirty game years, as it is just reachable without those events...

This is the arena:

Hey that's a really good call! I've decided to do this challange and so far it's given me a mother of a headache. I guess moving the stockpile is essential on 'very hard' I've only given it a couple of hours worth of play and determined not to read any literature that maybe would help out. But so far i'm saying this is very tough! Maybe too tough? I'm not giving up yet!

Quoted from Andy Baz:

I don't think this will help, if you place the stockpile out of the castle, you will have to protect it from the invasions by surrounding it with wooden walls and eventualy with moat, as you will have to place your army industry near it to prevent from slowing it down... Where will you put it so you have enough space to do so?

You gave me a fright there, Duc de Noisiel, as I haven't played this in a while. I'll be replaying it this week so I'll have fresh details for the solution. But you're forgetting one thing. Half of the potential stone production is in enemy hands. I ran a similar test to yours just now but with four quarries going. I had 1,000 stone by 1119, and running all the way to the end in 1132 I had just over 2,000 stone. So it's actually just about right for very hard. You can set up two quarries quite early, but the remaining two take some effort and time to acquire.

Andy Baz, glad you're giving this a try. Duc de Noisiel is right that moving the stockpile will not give you any advantage. In fact, it probably will put you at considerable disadvantage since defense is such a crucial element in this scenario.

This map is actually a good example of stockpile/quarry relationships. It really doesn't matter how far away quarries are from the stockpile. In fact, many times I prefer them far away where the enemy won't bother them. The only thing that matters is having enough ox tethers to be sure the stone platforms don't fill up.

If the stone platform is not allowed to fill up, which would create a work stoppage, the output of a quarry is constant, near or far. It's just that the farther out a quarry is the more ox tethers you'll need, but your stone yield will be the same, except for a little longer startup time due to travel distance.

I'm not trying this map or anything, but this is what I've noticed. The farther away the stockpile is, the more tethers you can have and ultimatly the more stone you can aquire.

Captain Diablo, actually quarries output stone at a constant rate throughout the game, unless the stone platform gets full, in which case they will pause until some stone is removed and there is room again. The further away the quarries are from the stockpile the longer it takes the ox tethers to transport a load of stone, so more are required. As long as you establish enough ox tethers so that the stone platform never fills up you will get the same quantity of stone no matter where a quarry is placed.

Technically, even this isn't quite true since you can never gain back the extra walking time used by the quarrymen to get to the quarries to begin work, and if you're working toward a set number of stone blocks the last load will take longer to arrive at the finish if quarries are further out. But in practical game play this is usually not a factor. Other possible differences between near or far quarries are the fact that ones further out have a longer supply line, which may make them more susceptible to wolves, bears, enemy hunters, fixed enemy archer positions, invasions, and bandits. Then, again, sometimes outlying quarries are tucked away in safer places.

I now understand why I gave you a fright Sparrow... And I am such a shame about it, you are going to understand why...

I usually always play my maps with the north up. As the map comes with and opposite display, I turned it to play it the way I like. I had a quick look at it, ressources and enemies, but I managed to do it with the all map flatened. Doing so, the stone to collecet appears like other stones. I had seen both locations where there is an enemy quarry already set, but with the heighth of the lanscape, I had not seen the other available stone.... This is why I was wondering how it could be possible to collect so many stones with only two quarries....

Quote:

This is what gave me a fright too as I was focusing only on two places. Reading this, I knew it was not a big deal to handle then...
But I feel like such a fool not to have seen this from the beginning...

No matter I could not handle it with more than 500 stones... I was missing something. (I did try to play it this way quite a few times... Too many, which got me to write the previous post. I focused on placing two quarries on each location already exploited by the enemy, and it was obvious I could not place more than one on each. I did not thought there would be other stone locations on the map because of the way it appears on the screen, with north to the top.)

Anyway, once I restarted with this information, I made it, so you can count me in:

You are still trying this map? Good luck...

Congrats Duc, that's quite an achievement!

Thanks NAT!

If you wish to see, this is what I ended up with:

Awesome! What a fort

Yes, very nice Duc de Noisiel. So glad you had success. I've put your name up and added a check mark on the honour roll. Congratulations!

You do have quite a castle built up there, something reminiscent of what I generally like to establish. Lots of fletchers I see, someone after my own heart. In this scenario, however, I basically stayed with about the same size as the starting bailey and maintained a very wide moat. I was wondering in about what year you began expanding outside the original walls?

It's always so interesting to see how differently other people may approach a map and succeed.

I started expanding after the main invasion of 1108.
By 1120 I had gotten rid of both enemy castles.
The important points of this map are collecting both stone and wood.
Once I have noticed there was another stone location, I changed a bit the way I played and it was not as hard as it may seem.
I did not build any dairy farms, I mainly focused on bread.
I made the money making weapons essentialy as I did not collect any iron or pitch.
I never re-digged the moat after the invasions, they would undig it again anyhow, and it prevented from extending.
I mainly produced archers, and may be I did hire a maximum of 70 spearmen, which where used to break the walls and doors of the enemy castles, and to defend the breach in the keep during the 1108 invasion.
I had something like 180 archers, 35 spearmen, 3 knights and 13 macemen left at the end of the game.
The enemy only broke in the castle twice: at the big 1108 invasion (Up to the keep) and again during the invasion of 1126, but it was easy to handle: moving the archers from one side to the other would make the knights chase them while some others safe on the upper gate would get rid of them...
At the 1108 invasion, I had collected 157 stones.

A fine map.

Beaumont castle

Greetings there, the good news is that I’ve finally completed Beaumont Motte 1102 AD on ‘very hard’ and totally enjoyed the experience as an extreme challenge, and to that I thank Sparrow for the opportunity…. My scores are as follows:

Playing Level – 15000
43 Months Early – 4300
16 Stone Extra – 160
218 Gold Extra – 218
40% Troops Lost – 6000
Score – 25678
I could have achieved a slightly better score if I had carried the economy on after the final invasion but was just happy to get the victory Also I have the .sav file if you’d want to check the validity of my claim or to see closer the methods of my win.

It’s interesting to see others completing it in different ways, especially to see the economy set in the bailey, I’d have said before seeing the Duc de Noisiel post and pix that it was impossible, but congratulations for the way he’s pulled it off. I’d have never thought you could cram in as many fletchers and bakeries in the space provided, but hats off for that…truly an amazing sight But it just goes to show that with a different approach the same results can be achieved.

So was it worth moving the stockpile I asked myself?

I think so; I gave myself a better chance of completing this map on ‘very hard’ when I did move it. The stockpile is the ‘action’ area; it’s the hub of your economy and as you know the place where all your workers will sooner or later find themselves. For me having it directly in front of the keep for this scenario seemed so unpractical when planning, not only because of the ‘stone goal’ but because the heart of any invasion would be directed at the keep and in this case the moat and walls of the Bailey.
So with 1000 stone and a sizable army to raise relocation seemed a far better option. Once out of the way you can maintain production quite safely. With a decent moat, and defensive troops it was possible to get 1000 stone within the time limit. And not using 100 ox tethers. Note though! You’ll need a direct path from ‘the out of the way’ village to the keep (see pic) this is because production for everything will stop if there’s no access. This was quite fun to do and if offered yet another mini challenge within the game.

The idea of moving the stockpile is not new and is just a variation on how to complete the map, but the advantages were well felt whilst playing…..
Beaumont Motte 1102 AD is a quality map and as a player it was really interesting for me to be as efficient as possible especially in the early stages of development. I spent a good part of the day sorting this one out, and at last I managed.
It must said though after a great start from my side, surviving the first huge invasion, I was pretty excited to be in excellent shape for what I thought would be a huge final invasion later on. The economy side of things was looking great and I was anticipating the last invasion. Of course before it arrived I managed to get rid of the 2 other enemies residing. So when the final invasion did turn up, was I scared? Nope I had by then nearly 250 archers and the invasion quickly passed by. Although I was disappointed not to be challenged harder I went on to get 16000 gold and 1000 stone. I had a great time playing this map and it must be said that without a dedicated start it would have been really tricky for me to even get close to the goals…Top map. Top challenge.

Andy

Congratulations, Andy Baz! So glad you had fun playing it. Sounds like a really satisfying win. Thanks for sharing your experience. I've added your name to the honor roll.

Congratulations to you both Duc De Noisiel and AndyBaz, it was a tough one wasn't it?

It's taken me several attempts since Sparrow laid down this second challenge but I finally beat it at Very Hard last night. Surviving the first invasion is the most difficult part of this map I think, after that the stone and gold collection aren't too hard. The subsequent invasions are far smaller and never really troubled my fortress.

From the off I had my macemen extending the moat and I sent my 10 archers to north of the black fort, to begin picking off the black enemy archers near the stone. Back at the fort I sited a market and several woodcutters, I bought enough wood to site three fletchers,an armoury and one hops and one wheat farm - sited next to the stockpile. The four food types already in the grananry and the religious bonus allowed a high tax early on - though as soon as the peasants want a church I always abolish religion.
With multiple foods to allow a moderate tax and having the marketplace available, not to mention several marriages and fairs, I never felt in danger of losing my popularity. So it was a steady build-up of my economy, concentrating on bows, bread and hops. I had three of the four stone mines working before the first invasion and must have collected around 130 stone at the time.
The first invasion showed up and after losing to it a few times already, my only conlcusion was to dig an enormous moat and hope for the best. Not exactly military genius I know, but it worked.
After the invasion I kept my people happy by always trying to have some of each food type and keeping them drunk. I raised gold by tax and trading, mainly selling bread and weapons.
I raised a small army of around 50 archers and a handful of spearmen and took out the black fort with no difficulty, there's a lot of vantage points for attacking archers in the surroundng hills. I then moved on to the red fort, once my archers had softened their defences I sent in my original macemen and swordsmen. It was an absolute joy to hear the music turn all peaceful once the last of the reds were eliminated!

I thought I was cutting it fine to collect the stone but I see now I had 27 months to spare so I'm quite pleased with that ...

Another great challenge Sparrow! Roll on the next one!

Excellent brave sir robyn! Glad to hear you're having fun with these. Enjoyment is what it's all about. And again, thanks for telling us how you tackled this map. I'm always fascinated by the differences in approach. It will probably influence my solution write up. I've added the check on the honor roll and your name under the map.

I found this map to be both challenging and fun. The hardest part by far is surviving the first inavasion, after that I had no real difficulty.

I started off (speed = super slow) with getting woodcutters out to work by both doors in the wall. Then 1 wheat farm and about 5 apples farms inside the protected area with hunters along the edge where there was no room for fields. Make Sure you build your market before running out of wood. I bought lots of wood at the start. Got 5 fletchers going early and 2 stone plots by the black castle. I added a couple more flethcers and one poleturner as time moved on. Also slowly replaced apple farms with wheat farms. I cleared off most of both castles with archers before the attacks(bought bows and recruited constatnly as much as gold allows). I had loaded up the railing by the red castle with my archers then smashed the stairs with spearmen, so enemies couldnt climb up.( I see now that this may have been a shady tactic as they could shoot some of the enemies at starting point, but I left them there) Also expanded the moat with macemen and spearmen as large as possible before the first attack.

During the attack I found myself manually targeting the macemen particularily those filling in the moat by the drawbridge. They did fill in one drawbridge and their swordsmen were able to smash down the door, but by that time I had enough archers inside along with my macemen that I was able to kill them easily without losing a single interior building.

After that there is no real trouble And I got rid of moat and outer walls. Building apple and wheat farms. Left some loaded forts with archers and had my macemen and spearmen readyy to stop the troops, but most were shot down by archers.

Playing level = 15000
51 months early = 5100
Troops lost 39% = 6100
176 stone extra = 1760
7343 Gold Extra = 7343

Score = 35303

So, you got through both the SH1 and the Crusader challenges. Well done, Lord Beaker! Lot's of gold left over I notice and finished quite early. And you're even better at Crusader, you say? Very impressive. I've put your name up on the honor roll.