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Topic Subject: The Art of Not Rushing and Versatility
posted 02-23-03 04:14 PM EDT (US)   
The rush, the bane of many rts players and the only way to win for others. Regardless of what your views on rushing are, no one can deny that it works. But why? What makes the rush so effective. The answer is simple really. Catching your enemy off guard so that they can't properly react and make stupid mistakes is what makes the rush so effective. So, if the rush does this so well, why do any other strategy in competetive play? This answer is simple as well. If everyone rushes then it becomes predictable and loses the very thing that makes is so effective, catching the enemy off guard. So how do we remedy this? Well the answer is simple, don't follow the crowd, don't rush. Or at least, don't do the predictable rush.

In swgb the dominat rush is the fast t2 trooper rush. (0% of 1v1s are both players doing this and the first one to make a small mistake loses though the battle is often a stalemate untill later ages. This standstill makes the entire purpose of the rush in the first place useless. No advantage was gained by either side by rushing. The fact is, the trooper rush is predictable, so do something else, it's that simple. Versatility is the one and only thing than can hope to match speed ever in terms of importance to winning. So what optinos do you have. The most obvious is using a unit other than the trooper. So what do we have, scouts, jedi, and mounties. Lets look at each.

Scouts die easilly to troopers but are a mere 50 carbon and are very very fast. They can be easilly massed and 20+ can down a trooper in one shot. The scout rush, while very carbon intensive can catch the enemy off guard mroe than any other t2 rush.

Jedi slaughter troopers but die incredibly easily to mounties making them not too powerful. Its a good balance but the jedis are expensive which limits their popularity. However, their sheer dominance over the trooper makes them very attractive.

Mounties die very easily to troopers but beat the rest of the t2 units no prob. They also kill buildings. Their real downfall is their death to troopers.

Basically each one of these other units is easily countered while the trooper can do decently against all of them, even jedi with the right numbers. So whyt would you get any advantage at all by not using troopers. Simply because you will be catching your enemy off guard and their reaction wont be planeed out and therefore mistakes can be made. You won't be able to go in and win every single game by using a scout rush, but if you rotate between all four rushes, your enemy will usually not know whats coming giving you an advantage from the get go.

But that's if you choose to continue with a t2 rush, the options go even deeper. What if you combined speed and versatility to catch your enemy off guard. A t1 trooper or mounty rush is rarely seen anymore, mostly because they are hard to pull off and easily stopped when expected, so don't let it become expected. Add a nice t1 rush in there every now and then to keep your enemy guessing.

So what else is there? Well, as the title suggests, I'm gonna be sticking something in here about the Art of Not Rushing, and indeed you could call it an art as it takes an amount of skill in its own way. You can jsut go straight to t3 and expect to be peechy. Most enemies are still gonna rush you. So how do you get around that. A bit of scouting and defense is all you need. So what optinos do you have? Here are the ones I like.

Heavy nova mining to pump a few defensive jedi then use extra nova to equalize rescources for a jump to t3. Use ur jedi to take the trooper rush, hit t3 and counter with air or strikes.

Heavy ore mining to drop a few towers then a quick jump to t3 for the same advantage as before.

Scouting to see your enemies plans then a bit of walling so you can get a fast t3(15 mins or so) for a speedy air rush.

A late t3 with extensive defense and a better econ for an overpowering t3.

Bascially the advantages to these are that you expect the rush, make the proper defenses then jump to t3 while your enemy is wasting res on a rush you were ready for. It requires you to scout alot but thats a skill you should all learn anyway and a fast t3 if you are safe enough to get there opens up loads of options.

Beyond the standard strike or air rush you also get access to pummels for the old school pummel drop, a nice fortress push, jedi knight rush with conversions, or just overpowering with t3 units. The thing with a rush is, they usually make you commit and if you can parry your enemy's rush and hop to t3, they are likely gonna take a sec to get there giving you a short but decisive advantage.

So whats the point, am I saying scrap the trooper rush and go out and be totally innovative. No not at all, the trooper rsuh is popular for a reason, because it works. But if everyone trooper rushes (which is the case) then it loses the advantage of being hard to counter because it catches you off guard. So basically what I'm saying is broaden your horizons. Don't have one set strat that you follow religiously, you'll be seen as predictable and people will beat you because they know what to expect. Make it so you are capable of a multitude of strategies and your advantage over your opponent will ne more than jsut speed. And for those of you who lack speed, it will give you something to fight your enemy's speed with.


I need something to hold me over untill AOM, I guess this will have to do, catch me on the zone as _Nazgul or Knights_Q2
Replies:
posted 02-23-03 06:52 PM EDT (US)     1 / 16  
*Got Dizzy not evan reading half way through the thread*

Wow, nice work Nagzul!

posted 02-23-03 08:04 PM EDT (US)     2 / 16  
I was really prompted to right this because, coming back from a 2 week absence from the game I resolved to get better at the 1v1 area of the game since previously I had really thrived in the team area. At first I was worried that since my basic trooper rushing skills had deteriorated over time that I'd have serious problems competeing. However, the fact that I knew the trooper rush was coming every single time led me to be prepared and even though I would have lost if I tried my own trooper rush, I was able to win because I was innovative and used something unexpected. Not surprisingly, my oponents didn't like it and said what I did what cheap. Simply though, using something other than a perfect copy of another strategy is most definately not cheap and while I honestly have no problem with the trooper rush, I think people will be alot better off if they broaden their strategic horizons and try something new every now and then.

I need something to hold me over untill AOM, I guess this will have to do, catch me on the zone as _Nazgul or Knights_Q2
posted 02-24-03 02:06 PM EDT (US)     3 / 16  
As I am relatively new to the community, I dont know who is what rank and what not. So I mean no offence. But I thought that is what 'Experts' do. They use all strats, with all the civs, always changing and adapting to the situation. That is part of what difines them, and makes them what they are. So why is doing something different being cheap?

As an example, I noticed that the computer always rushes once it hits T2 & T3. So I try to prepare for it. Why would a good player not prepare for a predicted rush, or modify his strat if it is not going to work?

Thanks for the write up Nazgul!


GreyDeathLegion

Zone name GreyDeathLegion

posted 02-25-03 05:55 AM EDT (US)     4 / 16  
.

*********** WARNING !!! ************


You can only be good at defense after you are good at rushing.


I placed this warning here because Turtles (over-defensive players) might not know how to read Nazgul's post...


There is no way you can systematically win by not being aggressive. A good defense is always the way to turn the opponent's initiative into waste of resources without him accomplishing his goal.

In the early stages of the game, the name of the game is "economy". Any attack or defense will (must) have as an objective to make you ready for more workers and production in general above the opponent.

The laws of logic dictate that you need quiet around your economy so that no threats thwart or limit it. Therefore, there is only one logic to apply - instead of letting yours be harassed, you go do just that to your adversary right at his home. This is why rushing works. Your space is unlimted, your opponent's becomes limited by your moves.


Defense is only so good as it TURNS the situation around (meaning: you pass to the attack, the other guy to defense), it is not for you to sit back on it.

The opposite to that is yet to be discovered

Now, back to Nazguls's post, here is a summary:

If you KNOW what the opponent is coming to you with AND it is not so difficult for you to find cheaper counters, then use the savings to get a good T3 and use the bigger power of T3 to give a devastating blow on his economy, since he has now to recover from his failed investment.

In no place Nazgul says that you beat the rush and that's it - he's always eleaborating on how to use that home victory to turn it into a future payback visit.

I hope I helped the Newbies and Rookies to read that post :

BTW, Nazgul, you rule!...

.

[This message has been edited by Paralyticus (edited 02-25-2003 @ 05:56 AM).]

posted 02-25-03 08:07 AM EDT (US)     5 / 16  
Yes I understand that Turtling, is not an effective method of winning. Unlike the computer, if you blow up all the enemies CC's, a human adversary will rebuild 3 or 4 CCs.

I no longer build walls and turtle. If I build walls, then I fall prey to not attacking, and just sitting there and turtling. I may build turrets if I need them, but no walls. This way I force myself to be more aggressive.

I know that the computer will over spend in T1 and T2 on troopers and mounties. So I save as many resources as I can, and try to get to T3 sooner. That way I can strike and air him out, while he is still in T2. I usually know this by my scouting. There is no way I am going to build 20 troopers so that I can effectively rush the cpu. Now I realize that the CPU and a live player are a lot different in strats, and in that field I am severly lacking in tactics.


GreyDeathLegion

Zone name GreyDeathLegion

posted 02-25-03 09:02 AM EDT (US)     6 / 16  
lol, i used to rush comp on hard all the time when i used to play it a lot. You just need to control your troops better.

Find me on MSN Game Zone as _Skythe_ or _SF_Skythe_ typically...
Waiting on the next SW RTS!!!
Only a few more years to go..
posted 02-25-03 09:20 AM EDT (US)     7 / 16  
Yeah, most experts expect the rush, either the same trooper rush or the same t3 strikes rush that they see every single game. But no one expects jedi in t2, or a defensive t2 with a fast jump to t3 for a pummel drop or simply for the better units there. I'm not saying turtle to t4, I'm saying don't always do the exact same thing as you play, and if that means don't trooper rush in t2 and hopping to t3 fast every now and then, so be it. If you never rush, try rushing, if you always rush, try t3ing. But don't get set doing the same thing every game, that's when you get predictable and that's when your easiest to beat.

I need something to hold me over untill AOM, I guess this will have to do, catch me on the zone as _Nazgul or Knights_Q2
posted 02-25-03 09:25 AM EDT (US)     8 / 16  
To further what para said, offense is 99% of the time always best. This is because it's putting more pressure on your opponent to react. And that's the entire point of my post. If your being predictable as many players if not msot players are in your strategies, particularly with the t2 trooper rush, then maybe playing defensive ust in t2 and then coming out strong in t3 in order to surprise your enemy is a good idea. There are some situations that may call for a quick trooper rush, but there are many if not msot situations when you are better off trying something that's not predictable be it a different kind of rush, or not rushing and being offensive early, but not right when people normally start doing it.

I need something to hold me over untill AOM, I guess this will have to do, catch me on the zone as _Nazgul or Knights_Q2
posted 02-25-03 09:21 PM EDT (US)     9 / 16  

Quote:

The Best Defense is a good offense

Now, even in rivers & precipe, pretty much my fave maps where i turtle off the crossing & do a massive boat boom, i still rush my enemy with troops via transport ship (which they dont expect on the most part) and manage to go t3 only a few seconds slower because im getting so much resources from the extra boats. Then tech 3 comes mass strike rush (and i mean mass), so you can be not only very offensive, but defensive at the same time


Find me on MSN Game Zone as _Skythe_ or _SF_Skythe_ typically...
Waiting on the next SW RTS!!!
Only a few more years to go..
posted 02-26-03 00:40 AM EDT (US)     10 / 16  
Skythe's point is only more proven true by this fact. On a defensive map, your enemy wil lbe even less expectant of a rush or early form of agression in any shape or form. This is yet another advantage given by being unexpected.

I need something to hold me over untill AOM, I guess this will have to do, catch me on the zone as _Nazgul or Knights_Q2
posted 02-26-03 06:19 PM EDT (US)     11 / 16  
i think the toughest rush to defend is the mega mountie rush in t2... that is tough... right behind the strikes in t3... a lot of mounties early is friggin tough to fend off
posted 02-27-03 03:23 AM EDT (US)     12 / 16  
I once saw this partner of mine, TS_Nanayaah do the trade federation T2 mounty rush. It was a very high nerf map (the one with the ice lake in the middle) and he got some 4+ animal nurseries.
Man, he soon had about 70+ of those things!...

Unless you're expecting it and walled in your PC, made at least 50 Troopers and walled in your carbon crew, there's no way you can live up to THAT, LOL!...

Massed Mounties in T2 = Doom.

If opponent goes T3, just make a few AA troops to take out the Fighters and you're the King, never need to go T3.

posted 02-27-03 03:27 AM EDT (US)     13 / 16  
well... it's good for the TF because they need no prefabs... and mounties cost no carbon... or if you're the naboo you get the nova bonus. if you're commited to it i think it's the best rush... period... even though i never do it, it's by far the hardest to counter.
posted 02-27-03 05:00 AM EDT (US)     14 / 16  
Since we are on the T2 Mounty rush, I was slowly crushed by a guy (better player than me, of course) that gambled on mounties only.

I had invested so big in air and strikes and i got beaten still, because I had no longer the time or resources to switch to Troopers (I did, though, but too little too late!)

The reason why i lost is because it was totally UNEXPECTED!!

This goes to support Nazgul's post in that you should try to surprise the opponent. I couldn't possibly believe when he did that, because it was a LOW FOOD map! If there were many nerfs, good fishing or easy hunting... but no, so when I saw 3 TC I said to myself, he's done. LOL, it was the opposite.

posted 02-27-03 12:47 PM EDT (US)     15 / 16  
as long as there's carbon... there's food
posted 02-27-03 05:38 PM EDT (US)     16 / 16  
mounty rushes were brought by the great AU_Armageddon

now its simple i can post a recorded game of mine showing a simple 20minute t2 mounty rush with about 1-2nurseries full......u can get about 30-40 with 1 nursery for TF

i think i posted it on www.mrfixitonline.com


Obi Wan Jabroni
Zone Name: _iMeGa__
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