Launching history topics in The Library would work, wouldn't it? There's no prohibition against good history topics here.

It's not really the same. We tried posting history topics here but they don't get people with a specific interest in History involved.

+1

If I remember, the History forum didn't generate enough overall interest to continue itself as a seperate forum. The forumers who contributed are well equipt to bring topics of interest to discuss in The Library, and have done so. It seems there is, at times, a flurry of historical based threads that appear here and then they disappear. A continous posting of topics probably would have kept the History Forum open.

history is cool
maybe you just need people who spam questions, so that other people would answer. seems to work. In any case history is a big part of the age of empires series, I do like it.
+1

[This message has been edited by local boi (edited 11-16-2011 @ 07:24 PM).]

I support.

Now If I remember well the only place I used to visit in all of Heaven Games, besides the Heaven i administrate nowadays, of course, was the history forum. Nice to see one of the few good members that actively posted there, that is Civis Romanus, still active.

It's not really the same. We tried posting history topics here but they don't get people with a specific interest in History involved.

But there was nobody with a specific interest (well, nobody at all, for the most part) in the history forum when it was closed.

That was partly because AOE and AOK games inspired or attracted people with History interests. AOE3's history attracted less people. But now with AOEO there maybe hope that players once seeing the ancient civs in action will also want to talk about their history. I think it is worth a shot.

We have a Minecraft forum with 387 posts. Don't tell me a lack of activity is a reason not to have another forum here at HG. It's not like it would kill the server space.

Although that being said I'd also agree with Civis that there really isn't much that stops someone from posting in here.

A history forum would be quite nice if it were re-opened.

thirding the view that it would just be a little redundant. Also, there are plenty of threads that are vague enough that they could go in either the Library or a history forum. And dividing a forum with only two or three active topics at a time is probably just a bad idea.

The quality of the posting there would be shit, hence it is unnecessary.

Some of the best bans I ever had were in the History forum. There is nothing like getting all riled up over some minute detail that most historians and laity would dismiss as trivial.

Some idiot locked my thread at Age of Empires Online

He claims petitions are not allowed. WTF is that? Did the recent addition of Persia in AOEO have an immediate Totalitarian influence on the moderators?

[This message has been edited by ephestion (edited 11-17-2011 @ 12:40 PM).]

Quoted from ephestion:

Some idiot locked my thread at Age of Empires Online

You were lucky. As a mod, I would be obligated to close that post as well, and not because it was a petition. In effect, you were advertising another website on AOEO. You could be banned here for doing the same thing.

And speaking of bans:

Quoted from ephestion:

Some of the best bans I ever had were in the History forum. There is nothing like getting all riled up over some minute detail that most historians and laity would dismiss as trivial.

LOL @ ephestion. We could step up the quality and excitement of your bans here in The Library if that's the thrill you're seeking. (Just kidding... ) We don't ban members for "petitions" of this kind, not even in the stiff, staid Library.

For everyoe's information, The History Forum was a discussion forum for topics exclusively derived from history. The Library before the merger was constrained to discuss current events and only addressed historical topics as incidental information related to current events. As The History Forum became less active due to the influences astutely noted in this thread (historically based game heavens-don't forget Total War Heaven and Stronghold Heaven too) the constraint in The Library became rather annoying to both members and mods.

The mod of The History Forum and I discussed what we could do to stimulate history topics (one of my favorite topical areas, I'll admit) in The History Forum and we tried some experiments which didn't take for lack of participation. We decided to propose to Jayhawk (Owner and Operations Director) and EXCO the merger of The History Forum and The Library to broaden the flexibility of members in topic selection. Not only did EXCO concur, but decided to our surprise to merge The Arts Forum into The Library as well. One of the key deciders was the propensity for the same forumers typically to post in The History Forum, The Library and to a lesser extent in The Arts Forum, with a few exceptions of course.

The concept applied in The Library is the perspective that just like any library, topics abound in a library in books on every shelf. In effect, a library offers something for everyone, so why not a forum called The Library doing the same. The most immediate effect was lifting the demarcation between history and current events discussions. Forumers no longer had to look over their shoulders and worry that they had crossed that demarcation line in the subjective judgement of one moderator or another. Moderators no longer had to enforce an irritatingly artificial differentiation in forum missions.

One of the arguments in favor of keeping The History Forum active was the degree of contentiousness alleged to be found in The Library. Actually, as ephestion alluded to in his posts, The History Forum could be just as contentious. In fact, in various communications I've had with regulars who talked "history" in AOEH, Total War Heaven and other Heavens, both HG Main forums were considered contentious enough that many game heaven types preferred to stay within their own communities. We moderators were never happy with the way newcomers were sometimes pounced upon and treated rather harshly in The History Forum and The Library by some regular forumers who posted in these sites. It seems they sometimes forgot that an 8th Grader's preparation in history is not quite the same as either a 12th Grader's, a university student's or a professional's who works regularly in matters of history. Better educated, more widely read forumers sometimes "bit into, chewed up and spit out" newbies mercilessly, which also contributed to reduced participation in The History Forum and The Library.

Regardless, addressing Stormraider's point, a lack of activity was not a primary reason for closing The History Forum. Lack of activity served only as flag to EXCO that perhaps some attention given to the forum was needed. We mods really are not in the business of farming posts. If a forum serves a unique purpose which cannot be accomodated elsewhere in HeavenGames, then it stays open for the benefit of members just as Stormraider in effect said. In the case of The History Forum, and later The Arts Forum, EXCO was of the opinion that the mission of The Library was dynamic enough to accomodate all of the kinds of discussions and postings being made in The History Forum and The Arts Forum. There was no need to dilute Staff to maintain these three sites separately as opposed to maintaining one site which could handle it all. The Library Forum Guide was rewritten to liberalize the topic area to the greatest extent possible.

That being said, I feel comfortable in saying that moderators of The Library since the merger have never, ever discouraged history topics (or pre-history topics for that matter) from being discussed in The Library. I will admit (sorry, ephestion) that "greco-centric" topic tsunamis have been occasionally discouraged. That pained me in particular to do it because I have, I confess, a passion for ancient history and only slightly less of a passion for anything in history post-Roman era to the 20th Century. However, maintaining balance is what we are charged to do as mods, and so it is done.

Rather than try to "break a branch off the tree," maybe all of you could discuss what might be done among forumers like yourselves to stimulate history topic discussions in The Library. Keep in mind that while moderators contribute topics from time to time, our job is not to launch all of the threads. Actually, launching threads is your job, and I've seen you do that very well. I would love nothing better than to see a whole truck load of history topics at work in The Library. Just like I would love nothing better than to see science, math, and a host of other topics being worked. What's more, there is nothing keeping you from displaying your photos or discussing anything of a hobbyist nature, like building snow castles or trebuchets, as one forumer annually did in the past.

The door to The Library is wide open to historians. Come on in.

"If you can find it in a library, it's in The Library."
Civis Romanus on 1 February 2009, The birthdate of The (New) Library

[This message has been edited by Civis Romanus (edited 11-17-2011 @ 01:14 PM).]

I'm not petitioning for a return of the history forums, but I just want to say that I feel discouraged of posting in The Library due to people who are far more intellectual than me.

Just my two cent/pence.

Some of the best bans I ever had were in the History forum.

Not the most compelling argument I've ever read.

Personally I don't care one way or another, but we should recall that the old history forum used to regularly go a week or more without a single post by the time it was wound up. For sure we haven't seen all that many lengthy historical discussions here, but there have been a few, and it's not like there would have been any more if the old history forum still existed.

+1

signature below

Civis Romanus rocks

I don't know if I should sign, but anyways I like to sign
+1

OK Civis we have 8 people so far who want it open. How many would we need for you to consider opening it for a trial run?

People like LOH and many others would want it open, I know that for sure, but they haven't signed the petition is all.

The prospect for a revival seems dim. We used to have Europeans and Civil War enthusiasts. People came to discuss the history behind strategy games. I recall a lot of low-grade military argument and nationalistic/modernist rants, but the thematic differentiation probably attracted niche participants, though usually too few to sustain a conversation.

If the Library has a weakness, it's that it's too generic. The main focus is U.S. party politics. Maybe people are tired of going through the motions, or they've run out of things to say which won't automatically get shot down. The only action here has tended to be the occasional Midwest bumpkin being pecked to death by flocks of lefty metros, or raging pedants splitting some poor layman's unsuspecting hair. From time to time newbies still get gang-raped by fallacy-thrusting ideologues.

Until it was finally dammed up and drained off, the quiet stream could be a refuge from the white-water expectorate.

[This message has been edited by Lord of Hosts (edited 11-18-2011 @ 00:39 AM).]

Quoted from Lord of Hosts:

If the Library has a weakness, it's that it's too generic. The main focus is U.S. party politics.

Out of curiousity, I just did an analysis of the 19 acceptable topics (not closed by mod action) on the first page of The Library's index screen. Here's what I discovered:

Total Topics: 19

EXCLUSIVELY USA TOPICS: 5 (26.3%)

NON-EXCLUSIVELY USA TOPICS:
Exclusively HeavenGames: 1 (this thread)
Human Behavior, General: 1
Exclusively Great Britain/Europe current events: 2
Primarily Middle East current events: 3
Ancient History: 1
World-wide current events: 3
Literary Criticism: 1
TOTAL NON-EXCLUSIVELY USA: 14 (73.7%)

Comments on findings:

The largest single topic area is "Exclusively USA" as claimed. However, the vast majority of topics are not strictly applicable to the US as claimed. What is true is that The Library being an English-writing forum, the tendency will be topics closely related or of concern to English-speaking countries, or countries where English is the major second language, to dominate topic selection by forumers. History topics are in the minority as claimed. Current events topics dominate the list.

The prospect for a revival seems dim.

For a number of reasons, a revival won't happen right away; but I wouldn't call it down for the count, or so dim as to be unseeable. Give us time to mull it over. Remember, the final authority isn't Sass or me. It is EXCO (HG's Executive Committee) and perhaps HALO (HG's Ownership Committee) if HALO wants to rule on the option instead of delegating a decision to EXCO.

American topics also tend to be more serious and successful than the others, and general topics are Americanised.

Hundreds of millions of Europeans supposedly speak English, but when they did contribute, they often just sniped in American topics.

Ephestion would turn a History Forum into his blog.

The biggest problem with a history forum is it has such a broad base. Most people enjoy history, but don't you think it depends of when? Enjoying history of the past 10, 40, 70, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 2000 years in all parts of the world makes for a loose group. It needs to be more specific, or not a forum at all.

[This message has been edited by skinn_dogg (edited 11-18-2011 @ 11:31 PM).]

The influence of strategy games meant there was a tight focus on military history, the fundamentals of which haven't changed in the last two thousand years. There were nods to the economic and political dimensions of war, but contributors especially enjoyed second-guessing the generals.