Hi Shenghi, welcome to Caesar III Heaven.

In Lugdunum, small insulae are the highest possible houses without imports. Lugdunum could be built with all houses small insulae, so it should be possible to build it without any trade.

By "no debt", do you also mean no "rescue gift"? Without the "rescue gift" (or personal funds), starting Lugdunum without exports at Very Hard difficulty wouldn't be easy, but I'd guess that it would be possible.

With no goods set to export, there automatically won't be any trade with natives. (The native village is the obvious place to put the bulk of the population, even if natives don't trade.)

By "no cliff dwellings", I assume you mean that there won't be houses that receive food or goods from market traders on both sides of a cliff, not that there won't be any houses next to cliffs.

Starting a mission without exports means quickly and cheaply getting houses to where the residents can pay more in taxes than they collect in wages. At Hard difficulty that means at least small hovels, while at Very Hard that means at least small insulae. It might be better to evolve houses to a higher tax multiplier (at least small insulae at Hard difficulty, at least grand insulae at Very Hard), but perhaps not if that requires expensive imports.

At Very Hard difficulty, city sentiment is automatically bad when the city has between 200 and 300 people. Therefore, when the population goes over 200, people stop immigrating and soon start emigrating. This can make it difficult to reach 300 people. The solution is to have lots of immigrants not too far from their houses when the population goes over 200, so that the population goes over 300 before many people emigrate. If you haven't tried Very Hard difficulty before, then I recommend starting a mission (any mission) or two and getting the population above 300, before trying Lugdunum at Very Hard.

Not long ago, a few of us built the career Valentia without any trade, as described in wedsaz's valentia no trade. In that thread, we discussed the problems we had starting without exports at Very Hard difficulty.

Would you mind if I (and perhaps some other players) also try to build Lugdunum using your suggested rules? (In my limited play time, I've been struggling with a difficult design problem in Lindum, and I might want to put that aside for a while.) If you'd rather reserve this idea to yourself for now, that would be fine with me.

About 4 weeks ago I (temporarily) traded games with someone and am currently without my disks, but just before that I re-tried Lugdunum in VH without debt and got a city going to about the 3rd year. Without a doubt, I can say that I could not complete your challenge in a reasonable time-frame. No debt in VH was very difficult to achieve with trade, much less without trade exports.

I would think that any success at building your challenge Lugdunum would take much longer than normal (in city years) due to a necessarily slow and conservative start. Infrastructure costs are just too high with low starting funds. It might be possible, I'll be suitable impressed if someone can pull it off (with no cheats of course).

Edit: Looks like Brugle posted while I slowly typed away

[This message has been edited by Naghite (edited 04-01-2006 @ 02:21 PM).]

Brugle,

My mistake about the large casa. Out of the top of my head I figured small insulae required furniture

As for regurlarly playing a mission on very hard difficulty, I finished lugdunum today after 3 retries. I was however not satisfied with the results. The bulk of my people lived in large casa on the native island, while 2 very small casa blocks were on the farm island and the island east of it for granneries. I required a pretty much screwed up villa block for the prosperity requirement and had way to many tents for labor access to farms, but nevertheless I did make it

By no cliff dwellings I was secretly winking to your Lugdunum Cliff Dwellers

No debt, and no rescue gift, indeed.

With some micromanagement it would be possible to not trade with cities but trade with natives, by temporarily setting export off when the caravans are close to your export warehouse. This could make some serious money, and therefore destroys the idea of a "no export" style.

I have read the "valentia no trade" thread briefly, and seen your version of it, and to be honest I was impressed, though I was even more impressed by "10 prosp in 1 year." No matter what I try, on Very hard that is, I can't get a villa in the first year, not on any map.

I'd love if some more experienced (well, perhaps not more experienced as I had the game about 2 weeks after it came out, but surely more experienced in planned city-building) would lay their hands on this "challenge." In the past I used to hate lugdunum with all my soul, but this last week I've come to love it, because of the many challenges it provides for less-experienced players. (and perhaps some for more experienced players as well)

Naghite,

For me the challenge is not speed at all, just pulling it off. I managed to play through lugdunum without debt or rescue funds on VH, using a strategy by Marty Party: set both marble and weapon trade up at the entrance of the map. I even managed to play without trading with natives untill I needed a villa block for prosperity.

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-01-2006 @ 03:49 PM).]

I forgot one thing. With less than 200 people, city sentiment is always indifferent. Therefore, with a population below 200, tax rates can be set to the maximum (25%) and wage rates to 0, so the city can always make some money assuming that some people pay taxes (which, at Very Hard difficulty, requires small hovels or better). With this "trick", it should be possible to get some tax income in Lugdunum with only 3750 Dn starting funds, although with such a small population it would take a while to accumulate much money. Without this "trick" (in other words, with wage rates and tax rates that would be reasonable at a much higher population), I'd still guess that it is possible, but that's just a guess. My gut feel is that it would be fair to use this "trick", in compensation for having bad city sentiment between 200 and 300 people.

Hi Naghite, it's good to hear from you.

Shenghi,
My Tarsus that achived Prosperity 10 in 1 year was played at Hard difficulty, and I used some other practices (including determining in advance that Mercury's and Neptune's blessings could be obtained and checking where 2x2 houses below large insula would form) that I normally don't use except in contests. I think that I've learned enough since then to do the same except at Very Hard difficulty, but wouldn't be surprised if I couldn't. (My No Trade Valentia is the only city I've built at Very Hard difficulty.)

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 04-01-2006 @ 03:04 PM).]

Brugle,

Ever since I reinstalled the game 2 weeks ago (ever....?) I've played on VH, and I plan to keep it that way. It's just the way I play games, I guess...

I guess the main problem for building VH Lugdunum would be doing the 200-300 push without spending a lot of Dn. (For now I'm going to assume it's doable without the tax trick, so I'm not going to use it.)

3750 Dn isn't a lot of money to start on, though. A few questions (I should go take a bath and then go out, but secretly I'm already planning the no-export mission. Heck, before I play without exports I should first try to design a layout that allows me to get the number one reason I want to this: NOTHING UNDER CASA!!! Oh well...)
- Does one need workers in a granary, or does a granary even have to be connected to road, to get it filled with mercury's blessing? -- and emtpied by a market, for that matter (road, of course, but staff?)
- Which method of pushing your population over the 300 limit is cheaper? Evolving 39 1x1 small tents to shacks or laying down another ~50 vacant lots? (I guess this really depends on mercury's blessing, though.)
- I understood that blessings only come in a certain month. Which is that for mercury's?
- Which generates more tax, GI or SV?

I realise I could find it all out myself by just trying, but it's so much easier asking someone who probably knows it And I've had enough of constant restarts, after having to restart Miletus at least 2 dozen of times (god I hate desert)

[edit]
Rephrase that: God I hate fishing
[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-01-2006 @ 03:45 PM).]

Shenghi,

I don't remember what is required for a granary to be selected for Mercury's blessing. (I'd have to test to find out again.) I generally don't use Mercury's blessing except in contests (with the exception of my latest Tarsus, of course).

I don't think that a granary needs to be staffed for a market to obtain food from it (but it does need to be fully staffed for a food cart pusher to go to it).

The cheapest way to go from 200 to 300 population depends on several things, including what you want the city to do once it goes over 300 people.

As far as I know, the month (or months) that a blessing can occur for a given god depends on the map. In my "cliff dwellers" Lugdunum (and also in a later Lugdunum), the only blessing from Mercury came in Apr 164 BC. In an earlier Lugdunum, the only blessing from Mercury came in Jul 169 BC.

The tax generated by a house is proportional to the number of residents. A grand insulae has a tax multiplier of 3 at Very Hard (4 at Hard). A small villa has a tax multiplier of 6 at Very Hard (9 at Hard). Therefore, a full small villa (40 people) will pay slightly less tax than a full grand insulae (84 people) at Very Hard (slightly more at Hard).

A first testrun proved it is possible to get 195 stuffed into large hovels + welling the wolves in without getting under 2000 Dn. However, the tax they pay at 25% is under 300 Dn/y. Of course one can remain in this situation for a long time (I would have to calculate in which year you drop entirely out of favor, but I guess it takes long enough to make some money--you get a 3 meat requests in the first 10 years which can easily be fulfilled)

So it's possible this way, now it's time to try doing it without 'abusing' the city mood under 200 citizens.

[edit]
I was particularly proud I welled the wolves in using only 5 wells
[/edit]

[edit2]
Doing the "200-300 rush" results in spending almost 1500 Dn, after which you'd need to add 3 more farms, pottery, a second forum and amphitheaters (since city-wide coverage is still good at this point, gladiator schools should not be required)

I'm kinda stuck here now... I was thinking of evolving my first block (before the "200-300 rush" to small insulae, but getting the workers to do so (even with hard micromanagement) is very hard.

After 3-4 tries I managed to not get a single emigrant during the "200-300 rush" though!
[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-03-2006 @ 07:23 AM).]

Shenghi,

How can you pen the wolves using only 5 wells? As far as I can tell, Lugdunum requires 4 wells to pen the wolves in the middle of the farming plateau plus 7 wells to pen the wolves in the west near the river.

I think I'll try your challenge, with a few additional rules:
- No trade (reduces potential tax income, requires all houses to be small insulae, limits Prosperity to 50)
- No penning wolves (costs about 1100 Dn and 10 workers for a barracks plus fort minus wells, frees up a little space)
- Culture 100 (why not?)
- No "future knowledge" (no preparing for requests, no testing where four 1x1 houses merge, etc)
- No taking advantage of indifferent city sentiment with less than 200 people (changing my mind)
- No deletes except for trees (puts a premium on planning), but this rule can be abandoned (if I mess up)

I'll start with a block on the farming island that will eventually house around 1200 people in small insulae. Wage rates will be at least what Rome pays (30) and tax rates will be 0 until the population goes above 300. Then (with most houses small insulae), tax rates will be raised a lot and wage rates will also be high (probably Rome+8) to compensate. Further development will depend on money. Completion may take more than the minimum time to obtain Peace 50 (12 years), but I'm hoping that it won't take a lot more.

Starting the "200-300 rush", I expect to have 39 full 1x1 small tents, which will be quickly evolved to at least shacks at the same time that some additional vacant lots are placed. Houses will be evolved from small casas to small insulae shortly before the population goes above 300, to minimize pottery consumption.

This sounds like fun.

By the way, editing a post does not "bump" the thread, and therefore does not indicate to someone scanning the forums that there is something new.

Brugle,

You can pen the wolves the following way:
Both packs have a preset running patern as long as you don't enter the native 'island.' The pack that spawns in the farmland area will at some points be at the far east location of said farmland, where you can pen them with 2 wells.
The other pack will end up in the far west of the farmland area, where you can pen them with 3 wells.

I can check if I still have a saved game (heck, I have about 30 Lugdumun saved games I guess) where I have them penned like that and mail it to you.

So far I didn't manage to get the game rolling without abusing the sentiment, and I've spent at least 6 hours on it now, not including planning and doing research (I still need to do a lot of research, since as mentioned in the first post (not reply,) I've only played like this for about 2 weeks now.

I think it's great you're putting your hands at this, but I am going to postpone this challenge, and do a 'no export' Capua first. Several reasons to do this:

- Capua is the mission/map I know best, by far, so for practicing new things I guess it's also better.
- I feel I still need a lot of practice in city planning, designing blocks and setting up a distribution system (the latter being even harder in Capua as it has no gatehouses)
- Capua has 2250Dn start money more, which gives me a chance at a somewhat easier challenge, plus the housing level you can achieve without imports is much higher (GI)

I think, though, that I'll have finished my no export Capua before wednesday, at which point I'll continue with this challenge, but for now I'm affraid this is out of my league... I learn fast though :P

By the way, I am a long time user of forums in general and I know that editing a post does not "bump" it. However, I am a general hater of double posting when it's not required. If I really feel someone *should* read what I wrote, I'll make a new post, but in general I prefer editing my last post.

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-03-2006 @ 06:09 PM).]

Shenghi,

Thanks for explaining your wolf-penning technique. The meadow at the west end of the farming plateau seems too valuable to pen wolves just to save 20 Dn, but it is a clever idea.

Trying an easier map for your first "no trade" city sounds wise. Valentia was certainly easier than Lugdunum. Capua and Valentia should be roughly similar difficulty: they have the same starting funds, Capua has no invasions and has lower requirements, but Valentia has gatehouses and can produce wine.

I'll try to design the farming island part of Lugdunum and get it started by Wednesday, but I may decide to get a decent amount of sleep instead.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 04-03-2006 @ 08:26 PM).]

I got my disks back and finished the Lugdunum I had started. It used the following rulset

- trade allowed (already much different than Shenghi's challenge)
- no cheats of any kind
- no houses under Large Insulae (true if allow either very quick feeder house fluctuations or significantly less than 100 culture, one or the other) (also all houses eventually become grand insulae, but this takes many years for the meat (second food) to filter down to the farthest houses)
- no penning the wolves at all
- no debt, rescue gift, salary or gifts
- no deleting temples to force blessings
- 100 calculated prosperity and achieved when game left to run
- perfect favour and peace (-1 for immigration bug)

It took me until Dec 153, I bet Brugle can do the city with no trade in less time and more population, but we'll see /wink.

[This message has been edited by Naghite (edited 04-04-2006 @ 06:47 PM).]

This might deserve its own thread since it is a bit off-topic, but I won't waste more than one post on it (perhaps with the exception of "I'M FINISHED!!!")

It has some relevance though, which will come in the end.

The rules I've set for my Capua are:
- Very Hard.
- No debt or "rescue" gift.
- No personal funds.
- No festivals.
- No export.
- No testing of 2x2 housing. (I did start Oil production before Caesars request, knowing I wasn't going to use it myself... So I can't call it "no future knowledge")
- No deletions other than RtR, trees and wells to increase the length of the road immigrants have to travel for making the "200-300 push."
- No housing lower than Medium Insulae
Guidelines (things I want to do, but am not sure if I'm going to make it.):
- No housing higher than Medium Insulae.
- No imports. (Directly related to the previous guideline)
- No taking advantage of city sentiment under 200 citizens.

My Capua is now in year 5. It's making a steady income, and has done so since the "200-300 push." Despite the lack of gatehouses I've developed a rock-steady block which is going to hold 1280 people--it's ~1100 now, but only waiting for immigrants to fill it. In about 2 or 3 years I'm going to build the second block, and after that it's waiting for the winning requirements to kick in--or will I have met them before I get my second block fully up? I don't think so, because the second block will go MUCH faster than the first one. The only thing that is not steady is one (1) oil warehouse. I could make it steady by shorten the road 1 or 2 tiles, and I would have done that ages ago, if not it required relocating 16! other buildings as well. Besides, I'm only using oil for request, so I still doubt whether or not it's worth the effort, money and breaking my rule of no deletions to get it steady.

Now the relevant part: Since I built this city as practice for my no trade Lugdunum (well, no-export... but since Brugle is going to do it no trade, so am I ) I kept (and will continue doing so) my Capua at Medium Insulae (I know, Lugdunum can't get higher than Small Insulae, but they have the same tax multiplier.) I am paying my citizens a salary of Rome + 8, and can charge 25% tax without sentiment dropping. After I'm done writing this post and have smoked a cig I will start testing if I can drop salary, and if so, how much. I will update this post with my findings.

[edit]
I have met the winning requirements (except population) waaay before I could even start my second block. Also I had to break my no deletions rule, as Caesar suddenly requested fruit, and I didn't have space or workers to build fruit farms, and I didn't have money to start the second block.
Speaking of money. Rome+8 and 25% can be done without city sentiment dropping, lower wages cannot.
[/edit]

[edit2]
Naghite,

When the highest housing is Small Insulae, the yearly tax income is somewhere around 1 Dn per citizen (wages already substracted.) so getting Lugdunum done without trade in under 18 years will by quite a challenge.
[/edit]

[last edit--I hope]
June 336 BC the 2502nd citizen entered my little village granting me promotion. At that given time I had 0% unemployement, 100 culture, 45 prosperity, 62 peace and 87 favor. People thought I was their God, despite me claiming 25% taxes. Must be because I payed Rome +8 wages. That year they payed 7272 Dn taxes and received 3832 Dn wages. After continue to govern, the city stabilizes in february 335 BC at 2560 citizens. Building one last library keeps unemployement at 0%. After letting the city run till january 334 BC (to see how much tax they'd pay over a whole year) I received 7680 Dn in taxes, whilst paying 3864 Dn in wages.

Next up: Planning Lugdunum.
[/edit]

[yet another edit, since it won't let me doublepost...]
I DID IT!
Lugdunum without any trade... I'm halfway year 4, ~400 citizens all living in small insulae. Wages at Rome +8, tax at 25%, short of a couple of employees. Now it's just waiting for some money to come in to expand to the natives land. Money is rolling in extremely slow and I do have alot of space left in my first block for houses, but I don't have the room to give new immigrants a job!

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-07-2006 @ 06:44 AM).]

Good job Shenghi (I took your hint to read your edit in the other post). Once your city is done, I'd be interested in looking at a few saves. I'll also be curious to see how long it actually takes, but you are over the hump now

Quoted from Shenghi:

The forums have some "doublepost" protection (attempting to prevent repeated identical posts), but they allow a person to post consecutive replies (which I've done many times). Post a new reply whenever you have something new to say.

I've finished the first 5 years of Lugdunum and will report on it soon.

Brugle,

I've tried a dozen of times to post a new reply.. But I got a message saying I was not allowed to post 2 consecutive posts, and should edit my previous message instead.

Quote:

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-07-2006 @ 04:56 PM).]

I'll try it.

No problem.

Strange. Have you tried shutting down and restarting your browser? If that doesn't work, you might ask in the Website Comments forum to see if someone knows what's happening.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 04-07-2006 @ 05:23 PM).]

I only designed the farming island and immediately surrounding area. (Nothing else was developed in the first 5 years.) At Very Hard, Lugdunum starts with 0 people, 3750 Db, Cu 0, Pr 0, Pe 0, Fa 40.

1st year (170 BC): Set the tax rate and salary to 0. Left the wage rate at 30 (Rome). Placed 39 vacant lots. Began producing wheat, clay, and pottery. Ended with 183 people, 1502 Db, Cu 0, Pr 5, Pe 2, Fa 39.

2nd year: When the population reached 195, evolved the small tents to at least shacks and placed 7 more vacant lots. Lost enough emigrants to depopulate 2 houses during the "200-300 rush". Most houses evolved to small insulae. When city sentiment reached very pleased, set the wage rate to 38 (Rome+8) and the tax rate to 25%. Ended with 410 people, 52 Db, Cu 56, Pr 6, Pe 3, Fa 38.

3rd year: Money was very tight. Immigrants resettled the 2 vacant lots left behind by emigrants. All houses were small insulae. Built the first extra education buildings, to keep unemployment below 5%. Placed 6 more vacant lots. Experienced Neptune's wrath for the first of many times. Ended with 715 people, 80 Db, Cu 67, Pr 13, Pe 7, Fa 37.

4th year: Received a request for 10 meat. Began producing meat, marble, iron, and weapons, to be ready for any request for locally-produced goods. Ended with 855 people, 351 Db, Cu 51, Pr 20, Pe 12, Fa 36.

5th year (166 BC): Dispatched the meat request. Favor rose 8. Built the barracks and fort (javelins). Ended with 970 people, 383 Db, Cu 41, Pr 27, Pe 17, Fa 43.

Next year I'll kill the wolves. However, before finishing the year, I'll have to design the rest of Lugdunum, so I can spend enough (perhaps on reservoirs and aqueducts) to minimize tribute.

My idea for Lugdunum is this- Play in Very Hard, and nothing allowed to be built beyond the farm island, including structures getting labor from over the cliffs. I've worked out (very roughly) that it should just be possible to win the mission in this mannner.

goonsquad,
A city of mostly tents? Sounds ugly.

I'll try it one more time... this time with another browser (I usualy use Opera, this time trying with Firefox and IE...)

Nope... Same error in all 3 browsers...

Back on topic:

I'm totally not happy with my current Lugdunum (I only designed the farm island, and did the rest on the fly, however, I was already not happy about the farm island developement, and the rest is even worse. Even though I will finish it easily, I will start over, this time designing the rest of my city before I will move on after I'm done on the farm island. Also I will keep yearly progressive saves and give a detailed description of my advancements.

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-07-2006 @ 07:01 PM).]

Yes, Brugle, you are right. It entails building as many villas as possible on the large clearing (which should look quite presentable) and the remainder 2x2 large tents, which can be located on the road in and the clearing near the entrance. I think it could be made to look OK but city sentiment will be an issue.

It's what makes C3 so replayable, the way you can approach each mission in so many different ways.

Welcome to sunny Lugdunum (second attempt.)

Jan 170 BC - 0 pop, 3750 Dn, 0 cu, 0 pr, 0 pe, 40 fa.
First thing to do was setting personal salary and taxes to 0. Left wages at 30. Drew the skeleton for the farming island, placed 39 vacant lots. When the first citizens came I placed a temple to Mercury, 2 engineers posts (1 for my housing block, 1 for my industry) and a granary. Next up started food production and producing pottery. After I received Mercuries blessing I put up a market.

Jan 169 BC - 192 pop, 1351 Dn, 0 cu, 5 pr, 2 pe, 39 fa.
Just in february the last immigrant arived to get the population stable at 195. Started the "200-300 push" by giving everyone clean water and placing 7 vacant lots.
Nasty surprise... Not a single small tent evolved. I had to spend ~500 Dn on desirable stuff before I got evolvements I could live with. I survived the push with 304 population, and immediately build a theater, library, baths, amphitheater and a forum. When most of the buildings had evolved I rose the wages to 38 and tax to 25%.

Jan 168 BC - 347 pop, 15 Dn, 45 cu, 6 pr, 3 pe, 38 fa.
Nasty year... It all started when Venus got mad, forcing me to lower my taxes, and _almost_ causing me to drop into debt. That was a very close call. Next up, Ceres' anger.
Also my food production seems too slow during this entire year, even though I have way more farms then I need. New tents have trouble upgrading, resulting in a constant fluctuating city mood, which in turn results in me having to constantly drop tax to get city mood up.
One thing I'm not happy about is that I have to use the fountain trick to keep my people employed. I'd rather not do it, but I don't have the money to build a culture/industry block yet. This is planned for next year (hopefully).
At the end of the year some houses devolved and evolved again. I need more housing so 2x2 may form, otherwise I'll keep running into this problem, I think.

Jan 167 BC - 760 pop, 111 Dn, 37 cu, 12 pr, 7 pe, 37 fa.
Layed down a farm immediatly after the progressive save, and that's where I am now.

More to come..

[This message has been edited by Shenghi (edited 04-08-2006 @ 05:38 AM).]

Until recently, I didn't recognize all of the effects of my "No deletes except for trees" rule. Not deleting original roads means that water cannot be supplied to the farming plateau from the north and that native roads cannot be moved (although they can be covered by gatehouses). Neither effect is catastrophic, so I'll keep the rule (for now). Space in the native village is therefore less useful that I had thought.

A pig farm was built (in the 4th year) on the farming island instead of a planned wheat farm, so fewer people than I intended will live there. A library will eventually be built where houses had been planned, giving all farming islanders both school and library coverage.

I generalized those effects into 2 additional goals (personal rules), to make designing the rest of Lugdunum more fun.
- No mission posts
- Everyone will have school and library coverage

My Lugdunum will have housing for around 5250 people. Victory should be achieved in the month that the population reaches 5000, at which point I intend to have little unemployment. If the city continues to run, the existing population will age as the few remaining immigrants trickle in, so I expect unemployment to never reach 5%.