Your city is nice enough, mind you Tarsus isn't all that difficult a mission. It has oodles of exports available and you have taken the easiest route. It's actually considerably more difficult to win Tarsus without building villas. But I'd say from this city you have a pretty good handle on C3.

Quoted from Trium3:

I need encouragement if I am to take this bold step ever again.

Bold? Maybe. I look back on my early cities in the Downloads and am amazed that I considered them pretty good. Do you consider yourself capable of learning, of doing better? If so, I'd expect you to want lots of criticism.

Actually, much of what might appear to be criticism below, isn't. Whenever I say something like "I like ...", treat it as just my preference.

The quotes below are from the .txt file that accompanies your saved game.

30 Large Villas

This is the reason that I like your Tarsus a lot. I have long thought that it would be fun to rebuild Tarsus with the maximum number of stable large villas, but probably will never do it. Very nice.

Hmmm. Writing about it makes me want to do it. Probably just a fleeting urge.

While I agree with goonsquad that a not-very-experienced player might find it easier to complete Tarsus with villas than without, that doesn't apply to you. Your achievement is more impressive than completing Tarsus without villas.

A small festival to Venus was held very early in the game and another to get Neptune's blessing a little later. No festivals have been held for over 10 years.

That's a little lame. If avoiding festivals is a goal (and I think it's a fun one), then why not avoid them entirely?

Invasions from any possible direction ... can be handled,

I like that (a lot, although it certainly isn't hard in Tarsus). But given that, what's the deal with the 2 towers?

I know it isn't needed, but I like for soldiers to be academy trained.

I almost never build senates.

I used to not build them, but now I think that a good-looking city should have a senate and a governor's residence, close to (at least some of) the best houses. On the other hand, I don't like for a city to have multiple governor's residences (at least multiple residences of the same type).

I also think that a "nice" city should have at least one of each entertainment venue. A hippodrome does look good.

I'm unhappy about the two small casas on the mining island

I'm glad to hear that. (I used to build lots of small casas, and then I was willing to build a few of them, but now I want all houses to be considerably better if possible.)

so I would have to bring the market further SE (further away from its supplies)

Since it supplies only 2 houses, the distance isn't important (as long as it isn't too far to get anything from its granary and warehouses).

I get satisfaction from building efficiently

You use a lot more fountains than I would.

I use fewer markets than most would consider wise

Not me. (In my last Tarsus I used 1 market for 9 large villas, and 1 market for every 11 large insulae.)

It is an interesting challenge to make everything work without over-producing.

I know it's just for export, but marble is overproduced. Even with 1 fewer quarry, it would be overproduced.

'personal goals' ... (b) to minimize the plebian population (also in the best houses available) ... without skimping on industry by importing goods I can make myself or by holding down exports, ... No finished goods (except wine) have ever been imported -

I like to have different goals in different missions, and having a high fraction of patricians sounds like a good one. (I don't think I've built a C3 city with as high a patrician fraction as your Tarsus, but my Pharaoh city Waset has over 40% scribes while mining a lot of gold and exporting a lot of pottery, bricks, and copper.)

However, in this case the combination of goals appears to be a little schizophrenic. To get all of the villas you need to import almost the maximum wheat, and that would be harder if you also needed to import more olives plus some pottery. (Pushing imports harder would appeal to me.) Also, the extra workers might be enough for a hippodrome and senate and Culture 100.

I commend you on exporting furniture. My Tarsus only exported the easy goods (marble and weapons) in the final city. (I expect that I could have managed to export furniture without messing up the supplies to housing, but I didn't want to bother with it.)

That is why I don't have the favor I should - I was late a couple of times.

That seems sloppy. Assuming that the weapons industry is developed early, the iron requests are easy to meet. Do you have something against stockpiling?

A villa of 90 people theoretically consumes 45 food a month

Only if you're using the wrong theory.

Most players would, I think, advise ... more than one granary (of each food type)

Not me. In general, the only time I would consider having more than 1 granary per food type for a block is when 1 granary is not enough to get the required food from a distant granary.

In fact, I sometimes have 1 granary supplying a food to 2 blocks. (In my No Trade Valentia, there is a granary that supplies wheat to 2 fairly large blocks, another granary that supplies vegetables to the same 2 blocks, and a granary that supplies fish to 2 different fairly large blocks.)

You might wonder why I have a couple of seemingly unnecessary wine warehouses near the barracks.

Why have 2 warehouses? Why not put the 16 wine in 1 warehouse? Even better, why not put the 16 wine in the nearby fish warehouse (perhaps also getting rid of the furniture it contains) and eliminate both of those warehouses.

two iron mines caught fire in 102 BC after managing perfectly well for 15 years

There is some randomness in the rise in fire risk, so not burning for a while is no guarantee of adequate protection. (I once saw a building catch fire after almost 200 years of no changes to the city, with prefectures fully staffed.)

Performers are provided only for the villa blocks. ... actors ... are there just to please those who think theatres should have shows

I think that all theaters should have shows, and all amphitheaters should have 2 shows, and all colosseums should have 2 shows, and hippodromes should have shows. Not necessarily all of the time (although that's nice), but at least part of the time. I realize that many players often avoid entertainer "schools".

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-16-2008 @ 07:31 PM).]

goonsquad,

Winning Tarsus pretty much comes naturally and was much less the goal than getting 30 stable villas. I don't think that was the easiest route

Brugle,

Thanks for your detailed critique. I won't answer every point, but I will take note.

The towers were the early beginnings of the planned walled defenses that I never bothered building. They only ever shot zebra as no invaders got even half-way towards them and I should have removed them.

Yes, it would have been quite easy to evolve those casas now I look at it. I would have to delete a couple of existing insulae since the goods supply is maxed out and I didn't intend increasing it. That would actually reduce the population slightly. That market in fact also supplies a handful of insulae on the corner of the block and its buyer passes several more (making buying trips more frequent than you might think). I didn't really want to take it even further from the fish granary it uses, given that its buyer will still supply insulae even if the trader doesn't. But I'll take a look.

I'm always impressed by your efficient use of fountains. I tend to bung in the houses and then work out how to water them. I thought I'd done a reasonable job (I did get rid of a few fountains not long before the save) but I seem not to have that kind of brain. I will spend hours squeezing higgledy-piggledy farms onto a patch of meadow, then I look at someone else's save and see nice neat rows with straight roads and more farms than I've got. I was niggled that the two fountains in the centre of the larger villa block (which used to water all the inner plots) were only needed by three of those villas once the outer fountains went in. Bad design.

The wine warehouses could only get 8 each. How would I get 16 into one? Edit:- 'Empty Warehouse'. Doh!!

The fish warehouse was a late change to solve a small shortage in the villas - it originally got goods for the insulae (I didn't even notice there was still furniture in it!) and so I couldn't have used it at the time I moved the wine. It just didn't occur to me subsequently.

Thanks again for taking the time on this (you even read my notes. That's impressive). I may well have another go at this, but my No Trade Valentia (oh, has that already been done? ), which I began last November, was interrupted by this and I'm starting to become unfamiliar with it. I intend finishing that next.

Quoted from Brugle:

Hmmm. Writing about it makes me want to do it. Probably just a fleeting urge.

Relax. Deep breaths. Go take a shower. Form a self-help group. If that doesn't work, go with the flow - it's fun!

[This message has been edited by Trium3 (edited 06-17-2008 @ 12:13 PM).]

My first ever post to this forum, I had to reply to this post though , I'd completed Tarsus myself just a few days ago and I also like the "goals" you've set yourself, they're almost identical to mine which are best possible patrician and pleb housing, all requests made on time, no taking rescue gift and no going into debt.

Firstly .. that is an impressive amount of large villas. When I was playing Tarsus I thought the wheat imports might be problematic with a too large patrician block but you've shown that you can have quite a few villas without any wheat problems at all.

There are a few minor issues I have with the city though, most of which have already been mentioned by Brugle so apologies for reiterating what's already been said.

I'll start with those small casa's, it's so easy to make them into large insulae so you don't break one of your "goals". All I did was move the library along slightly so that a gladiator school could be placed down .. placed a baths, doctor and barber down .. moved the market so it was next the the housing then placed an oracle to raise the desirability and hey presto no small casa spoiling the city. By the way there's no need to worry about your maxed out goods being effected by this, I ran it for over 5 years just to confirm it.. it was worker shortage problems you ended up having, which can be resolved by removing unneeded warehouses and marble quarries .. and maybe the 2 towers but i liked them too much to delete, they look cool.

Way too many fountains, I used to be the same as you with fountains, placing 4 or 5 per block but it's a waste of workers really, try experimenting with using as few as possible, it's amazing how many houses you can place in a block using just 2 fountains, remember when houses are large insulae or better they only need 1 square with fountain access (lesser housing as well if it creates a 2x2 house)

There's 2 warehouses with wine in next to your pleb housing, they're not doing anything as far as I can see, waste of workers get them deleted. Another warehouse issue is the fish warehouse you have, change it's 'getting orders' (and stop it accepting fish) or just delete it, but you're aware of that one already so I'll let you off that small point.

Too many marble quarries, you can delete 2 of them without effecting your marble stocks (and another 2 when the marble export trade is reduced). Actually you could remove all of your export industry if you wanted to, you've certainly got enough tax paying patricians

I'm surprised you missed Caesar's requests, I know it wasn't one of your goals to forfill them all on time but just hit that stockpile button when he makes a request, that's what it's there for.

All in all I give your city 9.5/10, if it wasn't for the points made above it'd be a 10/10. I'm tempted to start trying to max out patrician housing as well after seeing your city, it looks quite a fun thing to do.

Edit: Removed comment about removing weapons workshops to stop weapons clogging up the wine/weapons warehouse, it's wine doing the clogging

[This message has been edited by Milesy (edited 06-18-2008 @ 10:18 PM).]

Hi Milesy, welcome to Caesar III Heaven.

These are only my comments, but I'd guess that Trium3 would react similarly.

small casa's ... make them into large insulae ... there's no need to worry about your maxed out goods being effected by this, I ran it for over 5 years

I prefer for a city to be able to run for considerably more than 5 years after completion. Since 2 extra large insulae would consume only an extra .48 pottery, furniture, and oil per year, it might take a few decades for houses to devolve from lack of oil. And a worker shortage might destroy the city before that. Still, I consider a city that consumes even slightly more than it produces and imports to be ugly.

But I also consider the 2 small casas to be ugly. Trium3 said he'd consider evolving them, but if so he would delete a couple of other large insulae to avoid overconsumption of pottery and oil. (If I was going to do something similar, I'd probably replace the small casa that is not on the intersection with a market, and delete only 1 other large insula.)

As I indicated below, my solution would be to have more pottery and oil workshops (and perhaps to also import some pottery, if a large city is wanted). But Trium3 wanted a low plebian population, and a high fraction of patricians is pretty cool.

2 warehouses with wine in next to your pleb housing, they're not doing anything as far as I can see ... Edit: it's wine doing the clogging

The wine in those warehouses keeps the wine from clogging the weapons warehouse, as explained in the tarsus.txt text file that accompanied the saved game. (As I said, the wine could be consolidated into 1 warehouse, or both could be eliminated and their wine moved to the nearby fish warehouse.)

Another warehouse issue is the fish warehouse you have,

That's not an issue, it is necessary to supply sufficient fish to the villas, as also explained in the tarsus.txt file. The villas might survive for several years without the extra fish, but I'd consider that ugly.

marble quarries, you can delete 2 of them without effecting your marble stocks (and another 2 when the marble export trade is reduced)

No, deleting more than 1 quarry (or more than 3 after the marble export quotas are reduced) would cause a gradual drop in marble stocks. (I'd go ahead and delete a few quarries--since exports of furniture are not maximized, I don't see any harm in exporting slightly less than the maximum marble.)

you could remove all of your export industry

How about building Tarsus with no exports at all? For a challenge, do it at Very Hard difficulty. That sounds fun!

Now my dilemma is even worse. If I build a Tarsus with the maximum (30) large villas, do I do it with no exports (harder to build, at least at the start) or with lots of exports (harder to design)?

Hi, Milesy, and thankyou for your comments. Brugle has covered most things. 30 villas is the theoretical maximum for Tarsus (but see later) - short of stockpiling to get a load more with time-bombs attached, which didn't appeal to me. Of course, you would only know that you can build 30 if you knew in advance that both Miletus and Damascus increase their trade quotas several years into the game, so I cannot claim to have played without 'future knowledge'.

I've played around a bit myself since I uploaded that file, taking on board some of Brugle's earlier comments. The casas are gone, and the small increase in fish consumption from the northern granary seems to be absorbed comfortably (There is one wharf at the eastern end of those feeding that granary which is, so far as I know, the only wharf in the city which is (just) out of range for 100% efficiency).

As Brugle says, the small shortage of pottery, etc. created by evolving these two houses would take a long time to deplete stocks but deplete them they will so I've compensated elsewhere and moved a couple of culture buildings into the vacant spots where they look happier in their surroundings There is a small reduction in the population to 6900 and a consequent negative effect on the labor supply, but I can now delete another theatre.

I'm glad you noticed the wine warehouses (and the one for fish) - even if you missed the point of having them it shows you gave the city more than just a quick look over. But following Brugle's comments I have moved the wine into the fish warehouse and deleted 2 warehouses (there was another warehouse saved - the pottery warehouse now gets oil since its pottery stocks should only fluctuate around current levels and not actually accumulate).

You've both rightly observed that marble is overproduced (at one time it needed to be because I was building a lot of oracles) so a quarry has gone. One weapons workshop has gone to increase the rate at which iron stockpiles naturally. Using the 'stockpile' order has the effect of depriving workshops, some of which grind to a halt anyway (so reducing production), so I may as well reduce production deliberately and have the workers back.

I can't see an easy way to increase iron production except to put a mine or two in the marble area. I've tried this and, of course, they will trek all the way around to the weapons workshops even if I put a warehouse right next door, so that's no good. Disconnecting them (and still getting labor access) is tricky.

I've actually increased the patrician pop slightly - I moved the forum in the smaller villa block into a space left by deleting a theatre and put a medium villa there. I'm confident that the wheat supply can stand it - we only need Miletus to go one over quota every two or three years (it actually gives us at least one extra most years, often two). I could re-build the villa next door one tile to the right (moving the barber to replace a statue next to the governor's palace) and give the medium villa space to evolve to large, thereby claiming 31 Large Villas, but we then need Miletus to give us two extra wheat most years. I'm sure it would stay stable a long time, but how long I haven't had the patience to check.

In any event, we're once again slightly overconsuming goods and another LI deletion is called for, leaving us very short of workers. Of course, there are many ways of tackling this especially since, as you say, we don't need the export income.

Brugle will be pleased to know his hippodrome now stands proudly where the southern colosseum was, though woefully short of workers for now. Although I don't need to, it would be nice to get some coverage for the northern block too - I can get a charioteer where the amphitheatre is (but it doesn't cover much) and another can be injected in by the school (moving the prefecture and fountain out of the way). The latter causes a few walker problems which I may or may not be able to overcome, but even with both I still have villas not covered.

Brugle: I did think (briefly!) of doing it with no exports. That could give you a much higher patrician ratio than mine. On Very Hard your starting funds are only 6000, you can't get above small casa without opening a trade route, you have to import quite a bit before the tax/wages ratio begins to yield anything significant and you face very high land clearing costs. That's quite a challenge, and I'm willing to bet you can't do THAT without building villas!

Quoted from Trium3:

doing it with no exports. That could give you a much higher patrician ratio than mine.

Not all that much higher, given that the minimum population is 6000. And I'd probably want to have Culture 100, a senate, and more entertainer schools, using a lot of the workers that in your city made exports. If a hippodrome is built (I'm not sure I'd do that), then I might want more people than in your Tarsus.

Quoted from Trium3:

On Very Hard your starting funds are only 6000, you can't get above small casa without opening a trade route, you have to import quite a bit before the tax/wages ratio begins to yield anything significant and you face very high land clearing costs. That's quite a challenge

Having to import clay (through a dock) to get up to small insulae is a pain, but some of us have built Lugdunum at Very Hard difficulty without any trade (or debt or rescue gift or personal funds) and with only 3750 Dn starting funds. However, Tarsus does face (small) invasions. I'd guess that it wouldn't be that hard to have a fort or two of soldiers by the first invasion, but I'm not sure of that.

Quoted from Trium3:

I'm willing to bet you can't do THAT without building villas!

I don't know what this means. I thought we were discussing building Tarsus with 30 large villas. Doing it without exports (or debt, etc.) at Very Hard difficulty would make it hard to get going, but once there is money coming in and adequate defenses then it should only be a matter of time.

Or are you suggesting building Tarsus without exports and without villas? That might be harder (if villas could otherwise be built fairly early to increase tax income), but I'd guess it could be done.

Trium3,

I think I'll try building Tarsus your way (30 large villas, no excess pottery or oil production, and little excess fish production). It will have 70 large insulae and no poorer houses. There will be several additional "personal rules", including that all roads will be connected.

It would take several replies to describe the design, planning, and construction. Would you prefer for me to use this thread or start a new one?

Brugle,

That's entirely up to you. This one's fine by me. I'll look forward to following your progress

These are the "personal rules" for my new Tarsus:
* All roads (including the rerouted Road to Rome) are connected.
* Prosperity 100 and Culture 100.
* 30 large villas, 70 large insulae, and no other houses.
* 5 oil workshops, 5 pottery workshops, and no pottery imports.
* Weapons, marble, and furniture exports are close to the maximum.
* Fish production is barely sufficient.
* All houses have theater and academy coverage.
* There is at least 1 of every entertainment venue.
* Each entertainment venue has its show(s) most or all of the time.
* The senate and governor's palace are near some of the best houses.
* All baths, markets, and senate are upgraded.
* All fountains are upgraded at least twice.
* All possible approaches to the city are defended decently.
* No "future knowledge" of invasions or of house merging locations.
* No devolution for many years (until far too few workers remain).
* Very Hard difficulty.
* No personal funds, no debt, no rescue gift, and no cheats.
* No festivals.
* No deletions of anything I build (unless I mess up).

In general, to keep the workforce small, I try to use all staffed buildings efficiently. As a treat for Trium3 (see reply #3 and the text file accompanying his Tarsus), there is special emphasis on:
* Few fountains--11 are planned (including 1 on the rocky island).
* Few engineers.

For the planned extensive land trade, caravans shouldn't dawdle. I formalized this with:
* Caravans that don't trade spend the minimum time in the city.
* Caravans that trade deviate only slightly from the minimum route.

As Trium3 noted (in reply #6), "future knowledge" of economics is heavily used--the clay import quota increases, both wheat import quotas increase, a marble export quota decreases, and only iron is requested.

By far the biggest change from Trium3's Tarsus is connecting all roads. Markets whose traders or buyers pass by large insulae must be at least 40 tiles ("as the crow flies" from north tile to north tile) from any granary with wheat. This can be handled. What worries me is that a cart pusher, for no apparent reason, has been known to go to a building that is obviously farther away than another similar building. Will something like this ruin my Tarsus? I can only complete the design, build it, and see.

No deletions

You delete rubble though, right? Like when a building colloapses or burns?

Quoted from Brugle:

By far the biggest change from Trium3's Tarsus is connecting all roads. Markets whose traders or buyers pass by large insulae must be at least 40 tiles ("as the crow flies" from north tile to north tile) from any granary with wheat. This can be handled. What worries me is that a cart pusher, for no apparent reason, has been known to go to a building that is obviously farther away than another similar building.

Connecting all roads does make this very tricky. You will, as you say, need to keep plebian markets well away from the wheat, (some of) which comes in the same way as the clay does, and you'll be confining your camels to the road network from entry to exit. I suppose that won't be too bad if all your trading warehouses are in the west/south-west.

Didn't someone post some years back about deleting trees or something that 'fixed' a wayward cartpusher who was intent on ignoring the obvious nearest destination? I seem to remember that in connection with granaries. I don't think it ever got explained.

Quoted from Hunnic Paladin:

You delete rubble though, right? Like when a building colloapses or burns?

If a clay pit flooded or an iron mine caved in (which are scripted events), then I'd delete the rubble and replace the building. (Tarsus doesn't have clay pits, and its iron mines don't cave in.) If some enemies destroyed buildings, then I might delete the rubble and continue, if the invasion is strong. (In Tarsus, invasions are weak.) I would be extremely surprised if any buildings in my new Tarsus collapsed from normal damage risk.

Fires are harder to completely avoid, especially in the desert and especially when houses are tents. A fire in my new Tarsus would be an embarrassment but not an extreme surprise.

Quoted from Trium3:

that won't be too bad if all your trading warehouses are in the west/south-west

I expect all trade to be done in the northwest, not far from the dock that is not far from the ship entry point (as in your Tarsus).

Quoted from Trium3:

Didn't someone post some years back about deleting trees or something that 'fixed' a wayward cartpusher who was intent on ignoring the obvious nearest destination? ... I don't think it ever got explained.

That sounds familiar (including the lack of explanation).

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-10-2008 @ 01:10 AM).]

I think my new Tarsus's design is finished. Of course, even if I avoided obvious mistakes, I won't know some things (stability, cart pushers deliver to the nearest places, random walkers behave as expected, venues have all shows most of the time) until the city is built.

There are 22 wharves, 11 fountains, 10 prefectures, and 7 engineer posts. Trying to minimize engineer posts (without using garden short-cuts) affected all of the design except for housing blocks, but it was fun. Trying to minimize prefectures was harder--I almost decided to have an 11th, which would have been simpler (and used fewer gatehouses).

The design includes 19 schools and 10 academies (or 21 schools and 9 academies), but somewhat fewer will probably be built. I could have included a few more schools and academies in place of 3 reservoirs and 10 aqueduct tiles (by supplying water to a large villa block and part of a large insula block with a larger system "around the outside"), but I enjoy making cities without long (clumsy-looking) aqueducts. The planned schools and academies will probably be enough for Culture 100.

Construction planning will focus on 2 things: getting past the 200-300 people "barrier" (at Very Hard difficulty), and building temporary tents to give some industries labor access before houses are their final sizes. Those temporary tents must be absorbed by houses expanding to 2x2 or 3x3 (to avoid deletion), and in some cases must be accompanied by nearby gardens (which will also be absorbed) to compensate for the tents' undesirability (which can get tricky, since gardens are also used to make houses expand in the desired direction).

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-17-2008 @ 07:13 PM).]

The construction planning was tricky--this design was harder to adapt to the initial city than most.

The first insula block which will be developed (with an internal prefecture A and engineer post A) gives labor access to some wharves (and other things). The wharves are protected with a prefecture B and engineer post B, but engineer post B (which will also cover stuff supported by the other insula block) will not get fire protection from prefect B. So prefecture C will be built, which gets labor access from the other insula block. At first I thought I'd need to build the internal prefecture D (and engineer post C) in the other insula block to give the few initial tents there good fire protection. But I found that by not initially building a couple of gatehouses (and initially building a different gatehouse and a granary) the route of prefect C can be temporarily changed to go by those tents both going out and coming back, so that area can be built with 3 prefectures and 2 engineer posts.

The first villa block which will be developed gives labor access to the shipyard and some wharves and timber yards and furniture workshop (and other things). At first I thought I'd have exactly the same prefect/engineer problem as with the insula blocks. But by replacing a gatehouse (a villa block entrance) with a road (allowed, since the road won't be deleted--the gatehouse will be built on top of it) the internal prefecture and engineer post will cover all the initial stuff in the area. When the 4th furniture workshop or a nearby wharf or granary is built, a 2nd prefecture will be needed (which will still be covered by the internal engineer post). But when the dock (or a short-cut to the granary for some wharves) is built then a 2nd engineer post and 3rd prefecture and some temporary tents in the other villa block will be needed.

I did make three minor changes to the design. I exchanged the positions of the prefecture and the clinic in the villa block, so I replaced the engineer post with a garden to counteract the negative desirability of the prefecture, so I moved a house back from the road to make room for the engineer post and a couple of gardens. (I like the new position of the clinic better, next to the barber which is next to the bath.) I reversed an earlier switch of a school and oracle. (The switch had been made because the entry/exit point of the school was on a road between gatehouses that wasn't near houses, but I realized that that road could be extended a few tiles to go by a villa.) I exchanged temples to Venus and Ceres between the 2 villa blocks, which will allow 4 temples (1 to each god except for Ceres--I expect to be cursed) in just an insula block (Mars), a villa block (Neptune and Venus), and the rocky island (Mercury). (Only Neptune's and Mars's temples will be built initially, since those are the blessings I'd like to get, but Venus's and Mercury's temples will be added soon after the population goes above 200.)

I started building my new Tarsus. It appeared to be going well around halfway through the first year (the toughest part)--there was still plenty of money. Then I realized that there was too much money. I had been playing at Hard difficulty. So I'll start over at Very Hard and try to duplicate my play exactly. (Well, not exactly--I forgot to build a prefecture for a while and was lucky to not have a fire, and I don't intend to do that again.)

By the way, does anyone want detailed construction reports? Many of us have built Tarsus, and only the final city may be of interest.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-24-2008 @ 12:53 PM).]

Engineer posts don't burn (or collapse)! After playing C3 all these years, you'd think I'd have learned that before now. The hassle discussed in the second paragraph in my previous post was unneccessary. (I could have saved several hundred Dn and a few workers in the initial development.) Didn't anyone know this? Or is nobody reading these posts?

I won't change the design, and certainly won't replay (8 months completed, this time at Very Hard), but I will slightly change how the city is developed from now on.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-25-2008 @ 06:21 PM).]

Quoted from Brugle:

Didn't anyone know this? Or is nobody reading these posts?

Well, yes I knew it and yes I'm reading. But I obviously read it without thinking too hard about it. It didn't occur to me.

I'm not really in the habit of scrutinizing your posts for errors because it's so rare to find any. It's actually quite refreshing

One thing I was tempted to ask (but didn't) when I read your post yesterday - I didn't really get the discussion about temples. You have two villa blocks and two insula blocks? So how many temples total? (you seem to imply 4 is all you are building)

Quoted from Trium3:

You have two villa blocks and two insula blocks? So how many temples total? (you seem to imply 4 is all you are building)

Eventually 2 villa blocks, two large-size insula blocks, plus the rocky island "insula block" (which includes all of the quarries, mines, and weapons workshops), for 7 temples total. Initially, I built 2 (Neptune and Mars, to get their blessings in the first year, if possible), then built 2 more (Venus and Mercury, to avoid their curses) soon after the population went over 200. So now (late in the first year) there's an eventual villa block with Neptune and Venus temples, an eventual insula block with a Mars temple, and the rocky island with a Mercury temple.

The other villa block will have Ceres and Mercury temples (since the other Mercury temple will cover only 2 houses). Ceres temple will be built when I start the block (I'm not sure when), and the Mercury temple will be built when I want villas there.

The other insula block will have a Neptune temple (all that fishing). Since I got his blessing in the first year (the end of Aug), I plan to build his second temple after he becomes displeased, to get another blessing (which should be possible if Mercury's second temple isn't built yet). This means that the houses in that block (currently 4 1x1 small tents) will be evolved only to small shacks for a while, but that's OK since I mainly want to reduce their fire risk.

(If there's no Mars blessing in the first year, then it might have been better to have a second Mars temple instead of a second Neptune temple, but it's too late now--I don't want the same temples in neighboring blocks.)

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 07-25-2008 @ 08:21 PM).]

@Brugle: I also like personal rules but I never thought of all upgraded Markets, thanks.

Tarsus starts (at Very Hard) with 6000 Dn, 0 people, Cu 0, Pr 0, Pe 0, and Fa 40.

First year (120 BC): The boat/fish, timber/furniture, iron/weapons, and marble industries were begun. With Neptune's blessing, sales of 10 furniture brought in 3000 Dn. The year ended with 620 people, 315 Dn, Cu 14, Pr 6, Pe 1, and Fa 39. Most people live in small hovels, some in shacks and tents. Of the 7 tents, 4 should evolve to shacks within a month, but 3 will remain until they are absorbed by houses expanding to large insulae.

Are you going to upload your city when you are done? I would love to see it.

Darkgreen,
Yes, unless it turns into a disaster. If there's interest, I'll also upload some progressive saves from early in the mission.

Brugle, I really love your progressive saves.

2nd year (119BC): The import-supplied pottery and oil industries were begun. The marble and iron/weapons industries were completed. People were taxed. Ceres cursed both ways. The year ended with 1364 people, 202 Dn, Cu 15, Pr 13, Pe 3, and Fa 38. Most people live in small casas, most of the rest in hovels, and a few in 6 tents. 3 tents were added this year and will remain until they are absorbed by houses expanding to large villas.

Oops!

3rd year (118BC): With Neptune's blessing, 39 weapons, 43 marble, and 11 furniture were sold for 29380 Dn. The military was begun, with legionaries built 1st, horse 2nd, and javelins 3rd so that company names would be appropriate. (No weapons were supplied to the barracks, to sell more at double price.) The year ended with 2455 people (1.6% patricians), 6702 Dn, Cu 39, Pr 22, Pe 8, and Fa 37. Over half of the people live in large insulae, most of the rest in large hovels, and a few in a small villa, a small insula, casas, and 3 tents.

A trade ship from Miletus did not show up as expected in Oct (or Dec), so 3 fewer wheat than planned were bought. Investigating, I found that I really goofed. Trying to be clever , I put the dock fairly close to the ship entry point, with only 12 tiles of water between it and the map edge. Ships would trade there (next to the center of the NW side), but could not get to the waiting place (1 tile W of the trading place). So whenever a ship entered the map when another ship was trading (or, presumably, when another ship had "reserved" the dock), it would leave without entering the visible part of the map. That won't do, not with over 63 total imports per year from Miletus required in the final city.

I'll have to redesign extensively, with the dock where I put it before (or 1 tile to the NE, where Trium3 put it). Perhaps much of the old design can be salvaged.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 08-04-2008 @ 02:21 PM).]